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[DE]Marcus

[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

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I just got him so this is just my initial impression, but my very first impression is that his baseline cast times are horrendous. Every time you've ever given slow baseline cast speeds in an attempt to make natural talent an attractive option, the main thing you've accomplished is making the baseline abilities feel terrible.

His one is not worth the time it takes to cast baseline, probably not even with natural talent. His 2's baseline cast time is way too slow. I don't have much to say about his 3 yet other than maybe it needs a longer baseline duration.

To make his 1 more attractive I'd either make its damage scale with the health of the thrall and/or add a synergy with his 4 where it restores some energy when your beams pass through an energy beam. Or maybe just standing near an energy pillar created by his 1 provides some buff giving you some energy regen. 

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It would be nice if Danse macabre could kill Vomvalysts Making him a option for Eidolon hunts.

Also overall faster cast times would be great.

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After formaing him a few times I'd just add that in addition to needing faster base cast times, I think you should adjust the way we get mesmer skin stacks. If you think about a dense situations in which many enemies are firing, those stacks can go away very quickly, even with high power strength values for twice as many max stacks. Your only way to get them back is re-casting the 2, which currently has a slow cast time that doesn't even feel fast enough with natural talent, or charging through thralls. Creating thralls takes too long and they die too quickly for charging through them to be a reasonable way of getting stacks. Instead, simply charging through any enemy should give a stack. This would make it scale in dense situations and just make his kit actually sort of flow better in combat. You could get stacks faster this way, but when that many enemies are around, you'll also be losing stacks faster so I don't think it would be "overpowered". This would also allow you to get stacks in a reliable way while using his 4 without just letting you re-cast his 2 mid 4. If it was too strong that way, you could have a hidden counter where charging through every 2nd or 3rd enemy added a stack instead (it wouldn't have to be in a single charge). 

I'd also change his 3 so that the additional movement control you have when using it mid 4 is just baseline so the baseline ability feels better.  Using his dash outside of his 4 just feels lackluster currently. You might use it for the heal still, but I feel like it would just feel better with the additional movement control. Adding the ability to move vertically would be neat too, though I get that you might not want him being another frame spam charging through the sky in PoE. The vom's can dash into the air and sort of fly around though, so it would fit into his theme. 

edit: Also I guess what I like most about the dash change when in his 4 is that it's instant cast. The added movement control is barely noticeable, so that might need a buff.

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I'd just like his 2 to not be so visually oppressive, on top of lowering my fps if I'm unfortunate enough to have the camera get into the fog (like when hacking consoles). It's so bad I just play without it.

Also his passive is completely worthless but otherwise I like the frame a lot.

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So after playing with only the Revenant since release, doing both high and low level solo and squad play, i think the Revenant is pretty good frame, but he's mostly good at solo.

So here are my thoughts and suggestions about him:

His First ability, Enthrall:,

-Damage Reduction:The thralls should have a slightly damage reduction against squad members, not much but enough so they won't just get 1 shot by your teammates, its frustrating and nearly impossible to play with randoms and have your thralls alive most of the time.

-Thrall's abilities:Their ability always affect both enemies and friends, this can be often annoying, my suggestion is the following: if their ability is a defensive ability, something like ancients have, it should only affect friendly units, if the ability is damaging ability, for example an AOE knockback, it only should affect enemies.

-Their AI: My feelings about this is mixed, not sure if its bugged right now or it's intended, but they seems to be very, very dumb and/or passive, even for AI standards. When i say dumb i mean that they don't do much most of the time, they just stand still untill they get shot a couple of time, they should be way more aggressive, they should go and search for enemies, if you get too far away they should run/teleport to you if its possible.

-Visuals: They should have a little outline, that's it. Its kinda hard to notice them in the middle of a battle, even with the little thing above their head.

-The pillars after they die/its projectiles: They're fine in my opinion, the only change i'd like to see are those homing projectiles, it should change its target if the previous target died or turned into a thrall.

-Overshield drop: 50 is nothing, it really is nothing much, i would like it much more if it dropped something else, like armor, 50 armor for x second( affected by duration) would be useful, should be able to stack up to 12 time (600 armor in total) which would be useful for every frame, since armor is superior to shields, even more to overshields.

His Second ability, Mesmer skin:

-Charges: The ability itself is fine, pretty handy, but it should have some invulnerability time before taking another charge, because right now those charges just goes away in a single second if you get shot by multiple enemies, a single second of invulnerability between taking 2 charge would be nice, it would give you time to run into safety/recast the ability.

-Animation: It shouldn't be a full body animation,  only upper body, so you still should be able to move, it kinda kills it's purpose, because with the long cast time, if you cast it in the middle of the battle to save yourself, you die before the animation finishes.

His Third ability, Reave:

-Control: You should be able to slightly turn left and right while using the ability, other than this, its a pretty neat ability.

His Fourth ability, Danse Macabre:

-Synergy: As i stated it before, the 50 Overshield is not much, other than that, (this one is my own opinion) he shouldn't destroy the energy pillars with the beams, just make the explosion once per pillar and let the pillar stay and do it's work.

 

I hope i was able to help and some people in the community like my ideas, keep up the good work, cheers!

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22 minutes ago, vid23 said:

Damage Reduction:The thralls should have a slightly damage reduction against squad members, not much but enough so they won't just get 1 shot by your teammates, its frustrating and nearly impossible to play with randoms and have your thralls alive most of the time.

Why do people ask for this? Have it behave like Nyx and have all the damage apply after duration has ended.  You get your minion. It stays alive, then no matter how beefy will mostdefinitely die.

23 minutes ago, vid23 said:

Their AI: My feelings about this is mixed, not sure if its bugged right now or it's intended, but they seems to be very, very dumb and/or passive, even for AI standards. When i say dumb i mean that they don't do much most of the time, they just stand still untill they get shot a couple of time, they should be way more aggressive, they should go and search for enemies, if you get too far away they should run/teleport to you if its possible.

Easy bandaid fix is have thralls rubberband to revenant on ability cast. That solves getting around. However as you said they need more aggression.

 

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8 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Why do people ask for this? Have it behave like Nyx and have all the damage apply after duration has ended.  You get your minion. It stays alive, then no matter how beefy will mostdefinitely die.

I don't want it to work like this, i want to be able to kill them, that's also the point of them, but when you play with a random squad they kill all of them before they can do anything, making this ability pretty much useless, i mean, casting this ability, thinking that this will take care of the agro and make things easily, and then a second after you casted it, you see your teammate just walks up to it, aim, and then shoot it straight through a map with a tigris without the thrall even doing anything, is just sad to see, you now wasted energy for nothing Edit: forgot to meantion that i want some dmg reduction on them, so teammates wont 1 shoot it, so they can realize that its a thrall and stop trying to kill it

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He is the first frame I have ever put natural talent on.

That coupled with a kit that seems to be at odds with itself does not lend to a fun user experience.

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9 hours ago, vid23 said:

I don't want it to work like this

And i don't want 90% DR on a nox who's going to become a problem as soon as the duration ends because it isn't dead.

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1 hour ago, MarrikBroom said:

And i don't want 90% DR on a nox who's going to become a problem as soon as the duration ends because it isn't dead.

you still dont get it do you? i clearly said the damage resistance only would apply to shots from allies, the revenant itself would still be able to do full damage to it, and if youre one of those players who keep killing his minions then youre part of the problem

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35 minutes ago, vid23 said:

you still dont get it do you? i clearly said the damage resistance only would apply to shots from allies, the revenant itself would still be able to do full damage to it, and if youre one of those players who keep killing his minions then youre part of the problem

No i understand perfectly well. I just think it's not the best way to go here.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Revenants biggest crutch? Tying all his best synergies to Enthrall, his worst ability.

Welcome to Oberon's renewal and reckoning getting torn in half and gated behind hallowed ground.

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As I posted earlier, the devs clearly want the thralls to die and have most of their functionality in their death. Therefore, why ask for a DR to thralls? Instead, (and I'll repeat the idea of Momaw that I quoted earlier), we need a way for the thralls to enthrall other enemies even in their death so Rev has less babysitting to do (aka spam his 1 all day because everything gets nuked instantly) which could be as follow: when a thrall dies, a vomvalyst-like shade is created. It is invincible for the remainder of the ability duration (dies/disappears when duration ends) and the first enemy it attacks is enthralled while the vomv itself dies (to keep the 7 cap of thralls/vomvs). Dead thralls still emit their pillar + homing darts as they do at the moment. Reaving through a vomvalist gives the same benefit as reaving through a thrall: a mesmer charge. 

This will allow nuked thralls to still spread the enthrall status without having Rev spamming his 1 all day plus it allows Rev to be able to use his 2 or 4 to nuke all his thralls or regain mesmer charges without having to stop and re-spam Enthrall on another group of enemies. Also, no more frustrating moments trying to Reave into a pack of thralls as they get vaporized by teamates before you are about to connect with them while reaving. 

Also, using his Danse Macabre on pillars should instead boost their damage and homing dart damage+range instead of outright "killing" said pillars.

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Suggested Revenant fixes version 2.0

Enthrall:

Enthralled targets can only be damaged by Revenant or enemies, not team members. Might be annoying for defence but anyone whose played defence with a nidus will know that a good frame can still be annoying.

Mesmer skin:

scrap the charge system and make it a duration ability that gives Revenant a percentage of his current thralls dominant defensive aspect 

(probably a base 10% of thralls stats for scaling into end game and maybe affected by power strength)

Health from infested thralls

Armor from Grineer

Shields from Corpus

Balanced Mix for Orokin

Adaptive Damage reduction if you manage to Thrall the occasional sentient.

Reave:

Similar action to Inaros scarab swarm except instead of converting health to armor, reave converts thralls health into his own health and shields, although he is vulnerable during this period.

Dance Macabre:

Replacing this with literally anything would be preferable than this boring ability but my suggestion would be this:

Lua’s Descent:

Call forth the mystifying power of the Moon and bestow power upon Revenant and allies 

Thralls, Revenant and allies all receive the modifying damage ability to their weapons that damage Macabre had aswell as a glory sentient decal on their weapons for the duration to show that it’s actually happening.

Passive:

Current Passive May make more sense if you get rid of the charge system but I would also suggest that as an additional Passive that would actually aid the lore. this would be that while Revenant is equipped, both he and his operator do 27% bonus damage to eidolons and sentients (the same bonus you’d get from an amp aura if that kind of thing existed)

This might all be op but I atleast think it ties his kit together with the Thrall mechanic as the base of his synergies, which I hope people will recognise is what would be preferable to play with instead of just casting 2 and 4 over and over again until enemies outscale you or you get bored to tears

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My only issue is with Enthrall. This is in no way a squad friendly ability. And I have gotten to the point where the only time it's enjoyable to play Revenant is in solo play. The idea of enthrall is fantastic. It turns a 4 man team into an 11 man unit if and only if the other players don't just trash the thralls willy nilly. A simple fix would be to make them immune to friendly fire for the duration of the cast, however my favorite idea is to have them behave like Nidus' #3 or Nyx's #1 where the damage they receive is delayed unit after the duration with only Danse Macabre being able to supersede this.If this isn't fixed then this frame will not be played in any other setting than solo play because there isn't any point.

 

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1 hour ago, MarrikBroom said:

Welcome to Oberon's renewal and reckoning getting torn in half and gated behind hallowed ground.

At least hallowed ground can’t be killed by team mates.

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Frame was only tested in theory not in practicality which should b illegal?

Thrall survivability and damage output is disgusting. Was all tests done in solo? If u sneeze they die how can they get to a point of useful? You'll use all your energy recasting your one as they die off before your finger is off the button...fail!

Every frame in the game should be able to survive lvl 80 without help or cheesy go to's? 

Armor is not enough give the frame more armor why not?  health too low to compete why? You'll c a lot of imbalance issues playing ESO. What use is a frame with depleted energy, if it can't generate or keep it going? Or your four or other abilities can't eliminate enemies due to arbitrary limits of no real significance? One frame can go to sleep and kill many others can't breathe the air or they need a revive? 

A.i. and engagement should be integral in filling out the rest? 

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His Thrall ability is interesting in Defense Missions. If you Thrall an enemy, its counted as dead and if its the last enemies you Thrall, it completes the wave. I wish other abilities like Nidus's Symbiotic Link or Nyx's Mind Control worked that way. Same with Inaros trying to Devour one last enemy. Or the very least let us kill the enemy Inaros is trying to eat.

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Dance Macabre blowing up pillars feels counterproductive to their function as dmg/lite CC turrets. It's already a challenge to Enthrall up to 7 minions and kill them before your allies do, but then the lasers wipe the field clean of your tower defense... to do only a bit more damage.

Would rather see the pillars stay but get empowered by lasers somehow.

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On 2018-08-24 at 3:36 PM, VorteX8 said:

I don't know how I feel about enthrall because every warframe ability out there targets enthralled mobs so if you are grouped up with like saryn and all these others A. You almost never get a chance to let enthrall start enslaving and b, even when you do they die so quickly they don't really have an effect on anything...

I am not worried about Thralls dying so quickly as I like the fire pillar. However I believe the base cast range is terrible on Enthrall.

 

If the fire pillar left by a deceased enthralled had a Status chance effect to enthrall enemies that pass over it, I feel that would be a much better implementation for creating Horde Mobs.

Enthrall an enemy in a choke point...it gets instakilled but the firery pillar has a chance to enthrall other enemies that get damaged passing through. The higher the enemy level the more likely to retain Thralls to actually use synergy with other Abilities.

 

Or Enthrall could use Well of Life implementation where Thralls recieve a 1000% health buff for the duration and/or 90% DR so that they can be used for interaction. 

 

The base casting range makes it hard to enthrall distant enemies to even get a chance at leaving the fire pillar on the ground, let alone Reave or Danse Macbre synergy.

With the fire pillar spreading the the thrall, the synergy would be there for when enemies are not being instantly oneshotted.

I would hope in the future an Augment would come that would let a player mark allies or objectives that would Enthrall "their" attackers.

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anyone else find rev boring? i honestly don't like his 4, even after the nerf to 20 base energy/sec.....it makes his 1 even more pointless than before, his 2 is your 100% uptime survivability (because shields still suck) and SLIGHT CC and his 3 is an energy hog for pitiful "healing"

they should redo his 4...how, im not sure yet, but on initial leveling of him, i used his 4 almost exclusively and got VERY bored...the only saving point is status against armored targets, but that is all....to the point i ALMOST want to get rid of rev, makes his 1 cause the thralls to be allies (a la nyx's 1, but more "allies" that are invulnerable to squad fire and MAYBE get rid of the duration in exchange for overall less tankyness, so they perish on death. His 2....eh, not too sure about it apart from adding a 0.3 to 0.5  invul phase like inaros's 4 aug, and make his 3 open enemies to finishers hit by it...just like naramon's dash, but without the extra damage..

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