What is your opinion on "Must pick mods".And how to remove them?

[ExcaliburUmbra]

22 minutes ago, Senguash said:

The best way to solve the problem is to add new mods that are good enough to compete for slots.

So much this. It would add needed build variety while keeping the power progression intact for new players. Can’t really think of a simpler solution that doesn’t boil down to “mods rework 3.0”.

[(PSN)teacup775]

16 minutes ago, Senguash said:

The best way to solve the problem is to add new mods that are good enough to compete for slots..

If damage wasn’t the only factor in game play, you could add more variety. Ampirex or Atomos with their cc effects come to mind.

I wish mods for weapons like the Penta, with sticky, and tethering variants were given more thought and made more engaging to play with. DE bothered to put some features like that into fortuna weapons. The ogris is lack luster if fun with nightwatch napalm.

But that would take a different element to combat, say where cc was needed but death at the wrong time made a situation worse, like a capture, delaying tactic (trap) or an enrage if some hoard element died in droves.

I equip hush on a few configurations for stealth runs, and like exodia contagion on zaws (because a sniper stealth killing melee with viral is funny as heck also infinite ammo) but that’s not much in the way for special purpose mods.

[Viges]

4 hours ago, KilluaWalker said:

Where ever there is variation, there is a meta, you'll never be able to get rid of must pick mods unless you remove the variation entirely.

That is absolutely not true. Meta and must picks are totally different things. Meta means best, most optimal, and good design gives different options for that, or at least to be comfortably not far from meta.

Right now at least for weapons there is no variation: some mods are used and all others - just trash. For frames it's a little bit better, but just a little bit.

But there is no point in talking about all that anyway - DE couldn't even rework status effects. They delay melee rework again and again. They barely rework warframes too. It looks like they are afraid to change anything because they don't really know how their own game works and they have no "vision" about it either. And this makes me very sad for the future of the game.

[KilluaWalker]

2 minutes ago, Viges said:

 

But there is no point in talking about all that anyway - DE couldn't even rework status effects. They delay melee rework again and again. They barely rework warframes too. It looks like they are afraid to change anything because they don't really know how their own game works and they have no "vision" about it either. And this makes me very sad for the future of the game.

You know not every game has to be like LoL, massively changing their game every. #*!%ing. year. (Riot PLS i just want to be able to play a champion for more than 3 months before i get flamed and reported). Often times things don't not have to be changed that much to make something useful again. Look at Atlas, they changed one ability and slightly tweaked the rest, now he is a competent frame at the majority of levels.

[Highlord83]

Get rid of the likes of Pressure Point, Serration, Hornet Strike, ect.  Then make the damage of the weapon increase based on the Mastery of said weapon, to the point where at rank 30, you're at about rank 5 in Serration, as an example.

Then, after a Forma is used, everything resets, but add in a small, say +10%, to the damage, speed and other stats of that weapon. After which, the progression continues as it did before. It would only be the Rank 30, 8-forma, weapons that you really enjoy using that would have the effect of max-rank damage, status and crit mods, maybe with an intrinsic ability or something.  It'd make even lower rank weapons perfectly usable and capable, while making the high and max rank weapons things of legend.

The meta spammers and spreadsheet players would hate it, but screw them.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Highlord83

[Viges]

36 minutes ago, KilluaWalker said:

You know not every game has to be like LoL, massively changing their game every. #*!%ing. year. (Riot PLS i just want to be able to play a champion for more than 3 months before i get flamed and reported). Often times things don't not have to be changed that much to make something useful again. Look at Atlas, they changed one ability and slightly tweaked the rest, now he is a competent frame at the majority of levels.

I don't know about LoL, because I don't play it (and it's also a pvp game which is completely different type of games), but Warframe definitely needs a lot of changes and big ones, if it wants to grow and get better (btw I personally don't think Atlas is a competent frame at all and barely ever see him played even after changes).

[SirTobe]

I think people just want to have their godly configs to deal with anything without having to switch configs, because many WF players are lazy like that. 

But as someone else said, most of us can certainly skip some of the usual mods to add something more fun and/or convenient, and still plow through most enemies we face in our daily missions. Also a good Riven can easily replace 2-3 mods. It's always fun to mess around with explosive effects and fire rate, for example. Take the opportunity to mess around with that when farming relics and such on low-mid level missions. 

If I'd vote on something to cut out from the game then I'd say the multi-shot mods. They make no sense and are just too powerful to ever skip, at least the 100+ one.

As for mods for Warframes, I don't think it's nearly as bad as with weapons. You can have very different builds on frames, depending on what you want to do with them, and your overall playstyle. I have no complains there tbh.

[RX-3DR]

If it's weapon mods like damage and multishot, there's not much ways to resolve them besides moving them outside of the build. Personally though, I think Multishot is a terrible stat that only increases the power gap exponentially and serves no other purpose besides complicate damage and TTK scaling. Change it to Status Trigger so Status Chance will play exactly the same and you would have removed at least 1 "mandatory" mod away from non-Status chance weapons. Damage has to be moved outside the building.

For Warframes, at this current stage, ironically, more restriction will likely mean better variety by preventing people from stacking up a single stat. At least in the case of Corrupted mods, their regular counterparts and the recent Augur set, placing a restriction based on the stat they boost would likely push more variety much to certain player's annoyance.

General problem with giving more mod slots as a solution is that unless you have given one slot for every "mandatory" mod, you're just moving one mod from the queue into the build.

[SenorClipClop]

8 hours ago, BlueFan99 said:

So, how can we fix this? 

1. Add more stats that can be altered to the game. Something like shield dmg mitigation, visibility and etc...

Yes. These specific examples aren't essential, but they are good ideas.

8 hours ago, BlueFan99 said:

2. Add (replace existing ones with) many many many more dual and triple stat mods. 

Also yes.

8 hours ago, BlueFan99 said:

Add mods with a flat out buff, not % based one.

Maybe? Depends on the mods. Flat Armor is potentially useful, but it would run the risk of being ignored by Armor-heavy frames for not being worth the slot, and possibly (but less likely) ignored by squishy frames who might not see the difference 100 Armor makes in higher-level content.

8 hours ago, BlueFan99 said:

Must pick mods

I think a clearer discussion can be had if we set out clear specifications of what these "must-pick" or "mandatory" mods are. For example, I put Point Strike on every Crit primary I use, but I don't consider it a mandatory mod because I don't equip it to every primary I use. Similarly, I'll use the mods for pure elemental damage over the dual-stat mods on low-status Crit melees, but I'll always use the DualStats on status melees. I don't see any of these as "mandatory". To me, the mandatory mods are mods that you will use in every possible situation you can use the mod in: the Raw Damage mods Serration, Point Blank, Hornet Strike and (Primed) Pressure Point; and the pure Multishot mods on guns, Barrel Diffusion, Split Chamber and Hell's Chamber.

The Multishot Mods feel mandatory because depending on the mod, it essentially grants double damage (or more) with zero downsides, which is too good not to always use on everything. I feel like Multishot could be adjusted in any of the following ways:

• Make the extra shots only useful for proccing on-hit effects like Status, Hunter Munitions etc.
• Have the extra shots consume the weapon's ammo (either from the mag or the reserves) and not just be free extra bullets.
• Provide some other kind of stipulation that makes multishot desirable, but with situational downsides so it isn't always mandatory.

The Damage mods could be retooled in any of these ways:

• Remove them and have base damage scale up depending on the weapon's current Rank (ie current base at Unranked, current maxed Serration's damage added at Max Rank)
• Remove the mods and either include the damage of a maxed or don't at all, then balance content around whether or not that damage was included.
• Release other mods with slightly less raw damage and have other effects that are equally(?) beneficial, then make sure they can't be equipped at the same time as the current raw damage mods (similar to how Pressure Point and Sacrificial Pressure can't equip to the same build).

Thing is, with any of these possible solutions there are going to be some hold-ups and difficulties. Chief among these is that no direct solution seems viable without significantly buffing or significantly nerfing every weapon in the game. If stats are tooled lower in any way the devs will face outcry from mobs of whiny players. If the stats work out higher then the game becomes even lazier/easier than it is, and to keep a similar experience they'd have to relatively buff everything in the game to match the weapon buff, which effectively makes the thing a nerf and we're back to butthurt fan mobs again. This is not an easy task and I don't relish the responsibility Scott has with this. If anyone sees him, give him a hug and/or offer him a beer.

[Makunogo]

8 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

I've never understood this mentality. Yes, people will always find the most optimal way of doing something, but that doesn't mean that removing "must-pick" options will never accomplish anything. I mean, think of it this way-- if the #1 most optimal build is removed, the next most optimal way of modding could very well be a tie between a huge variety of builds.

 

That being said, I'm actually kinda fine with the current system. Even though Serration/SplitChamber/PrimedPressurePoint/etc are mandatory in 99% of serious builds, it's important to note that not equipping these mods opens up some free mod slots... meaning that players are heavily rewarded if they can find a way to make these mandatory mods "not mandatory".
e.g.

• Not equipping Serration/etc when playing as Chroma
• Not equipping CritChance when using a source of additive crit chance (e.g. Harrow)
• Not equipping PPP/BloodRush/etc when playing as Covert Lethality Ash/Inaros
• Not equipping BaseDMG/Multishot/firerate/elementals/etc when building a weapon purely for utility rather than damage (seriously, yall need to try this)

 

I like the concept of these "mandatory mods" because of this. Players are rewarded for making unconventional builds that don't require these mods, and complete removal of mandatory mods would kind of ruin this magic.

My only concern is that we have too many mandatory mods-- e.g. melee Combo Counter mods (required for every non-dagger/glaive/gunblade melee) and Multishot (especially Lethal Torrent, which just worsens the problem that Barrel Diffusion causes), since they kinda just eat up your slots without you having a say in the matter.
(Combo counter mods shouldn't be mandatory at all. Naramon should have a different gimmick other than giving melee weapons a free slot.)

not sure if this counts as utility buts its FUN AS F. i currently have a "beyblade" Azima Build with as much magazine/ammo possible. a bit lower fire rate and Viral.

it just sits there spinning for a slid minute almost. its probably not helping but its sure as hell fun 

[ShortCat]

8 hours ago, DrBorris said:

"Warframe" modding. So, like, modding Warframes, not weapons.

My bad. Frames are in a better spot indeed.

[Marvelous_A]

The only thing they need to do is making 1 weapon mod slots into utility slots which allows any mods except those of damage.

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

13 hours ago, Littleman88 said:

Giving weapons a stand alone slot for hornet strike/point blank/serration that doesn't consume points will open up a mod slot and maintain the player's capability to self nerf as desired, like if they're running with a newbie through the starter planets.

I won't suggest something similar for multi-shot... on the surface it comes across as raw damage, but it's still far less impactful than straight up 90-220% more raw damage across the spectrum.  Split chamber is garbage without serration, but serration is still indispensable without split chamber.

Also, it isn't so much that there is no build variety, so much as most utility mods are actually garbage.  30% magazine capacity would be okay... if it topped out at maybe 5 mod points.  Maybe.  But it's redundant on a weapon with 100 rounds in a magazine, and nigh on worthless on a weapon with only 6-8.

I like this idea.  If they get rid of the main damage mods...that creates issues...but having a slot for it, like an Aura slot...not a bad idea.  It always irks me when a game creates something and you "have" to equip it because it's basic.  And yes, point blank/primed point blank is "basic" - who wouldn't want it for a shotgun only sortie?

This is more betterness.

 

[Kuestenjung]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Double991:

Obvious mods that are found in 9/10 builds like Serration and Split Chamber could have been removed and simply fused into all primaries. The rank of their benefits is determined by the rank of the weapon.

A simple solution but people hate power creep in any form.

This wouldn´t change anything. Mods like Serration and Split chamber would just be replaced by another mod which would be the "must have" mods then.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

15 hours ago, BlueFan99 said:

Like seriously this game has soo many mods yet still, I only use like 10% of them. I maybe use 14 different mods for my warframes and something like 12 for each of the weapon types... This is not a good design and it only gives players the illusion of choice. I really want to read your opinion on this topic and if you think that these mods are a problem.

So, how can we fix this? 

We can't. They're "must have" because some content creator referred to them as that, and followers took up the banner. 

The mods tend to be very efficient, which explains why so many people have use for them anyway. But a big part of why they are used is because people refer to them as "mandatory" or "must have" and keep the pushing that idea. 

 

Take the bane mods as an example. Baro brought some a while ago with his 100th visit. People were so focused on their mandatory/must haves that many ignored or complained about them. And this is after, how that type of thing works was explained. 

 

When people actively pass on objectively better mods, because the popular build they found, doesn't contain them... Yeah that explains a part of the problem. 

[CoolDudeMcCool]

14 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

• Not equipping BaseDMG/Multishot/firerate/elementals/etc when building a weapon purely for utility rather than damage (seriously, yall need to try this)

What would you recommend for utility weapons/builds?

[shut]

9 hours ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

What would you recommend for utility weapons/builds?

Ignis Wraith and Phantasma are my personal favourites. Status builds on them are hilariously effective, especially if you optimize them with rivens (e.g. --Impact for Phantasma).

• Pure Blast builds (assuming a high enough Status chance) will knock down anything that you look at. You can knock down entire rooms by holding M1 and swinging the camera around.
  • Ignis has a taller hitbox and reaches longer. Phantasma has a flatter hitbox, but an incredibly wide reach with Vicious Spread.
  • Phantasma is one of the few weapons that can reliably proc Radiation and Blast at the same time, let alone in an AoE.
  • Ignis is one of the few weapons that can block Bombard projectiles. It only works with Heat or Blast builds, though-- Gas and Radiation won't work.
     
• Radiation/Viral builds with Continuous Misery won't instantly stop enemies from shooting you like Blast builds will, but a quick spurt of M1 can Confuse an entire room for 20+ seconds at a time. You're basically sacrificing a weapon slot to have a Nyx buddy at your side... if Nyx could also easily proc Viral.
  • Easy way to cheese Hijack / Mobile Defense / etc missions on any frame.

 

That sort of thing.
Bonus points if you've got a melee weapon as your main damage source, with your primary acting as support. And bonus bonus points if this melee weapon has Condition Overload.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SortaRandom

[LazyBlissIV]

I think mandatory weapon mods like multi shot and fire rate in some cases, would be better off as temporary boost we get from  enemy drops or loot boxes. They could implement it in a similar fashion to how we get energy/health orbs.

[nslay]

Hello! D3 refugee here! I'm loving Warframe so far!

We have the same problem in D3 and it's only going to get worse in the next patch! For solo players, Blizzard did balance multiple per-class (class ~ warframes here) builds (i.e. mods and weapons here) so that maybe 3-4 builds for a class could reach near similar difficulties in the game. For groups, the meta is additionally defined by certain combination of classes and builds making the problem even more difficult to solve! In the group meta, maybe only a few combinations of 4 player groups exist currently.

On the solo aspect, one possible solution is to balance the effectiveness of mods around some model player (e.g. the average player) for some given performance metric. For the model player, every mod should provide, on average, similar *performance* (whatever you define this to be). This would definitely require a lot of measurement over all the different mods in a lot of different scenarios for some model player (especially for any gimmicky hard-to-model effects!). And even then, you might not capture the interaction between mods for some possible combinations of mods (since players may never use such combinations)! You also want to determine mod numbers/effects to offer only a modest increase in *performance* for experienced players that deviate from the model player.

I have no idea how you could even begin to solve it for combinations of players without destroying the balance for individual player builds. There will probably always be some combination of builds/warframes that work substantially better as a team.

Welp, back to grinding... Take what I said with a grain of salt! I'm applying my D3 observations/experience to this only somewhat similar game!

 

[Soup2504]

the one big thing I want changed about "essential mods" is for serration/point blank/pressure point/hornet strike to be removed, and have damage level increase with weapon level. Frees up a mod slot, keeps the damage bonus in (except you'd have to work for it a little bit).

Edited December 7, 2018 by Soup2504

[Beartornado]

Remove the baseline flat damage mods, add as much worth of damage increase to the levels of each weapon (Unranked Rifle +0% damage, level 30 +140% damage like what Serration offers). Things like corrupted, nightmare, and riven mods can stay of course. Faction specific damage mods might start seeing use without being good enough that you wouldn't take something oriented for another purpose.

That'd be where I start Refund Endo/Credits accordingly of course. Flat damage just seems like something you should get on leveling the way frames get stat increases for leveling.

Basically what most everyone is saying in the thread.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Beartornado

[Kyronz]

A few years ago, DE stated intentions to remove mandatory mods....obviously like much DE says....they were full of manure.

[XenMaster]

People wanted different mod slots for a single weapon.

 

1. Damage mod slot (serration, multishot, elemental, corrupted based dmg).

 

2. Utility mod slot (ammo mutation, ammo maximum, range beam, reload speed).

 

3. Augment mod slot (mods like syndicate, exclusive explosive mod firestorm)

 

Much like warframe mod slot system, we can add augments to augment slot for weapons without hurting the 8 mandatory mod slots.

[Sziklamester]

Removing and reworking the complete modding system and bring back some kind of passive skill tree system which adds some minor buffs to the frames/items.

Make then a mod system where each mods equally useful and add an option to combine these mods. 

[BrazilianJoe]

I don't think mods need to be reworked. Instead, new gameplay rules should change the landscape. 

Like, Cephalon Samodeus, which is the creator of most or all of the current mods, could be in bed with the Sentient. The current mods, when used in the Tau system, would increase enemy level by 1 per each mod point used in an equipped "Samodeus Mod".
If you calculate, a single Warframe, + companion + 3 weapons can skyrocket enemy level. 

The solution would be to find another mod crafter, to craft mods which are not tainted by the Sentients, or pick up the few current mods which are not Sentient-tainted. 

I would separate Conclave mods, Auras, and Augments, for instance, as untainted. MAYBE Simaris, Syndicate mods and Exilus too. The rest would be tainted.

Outside the Tau system, use the old mods no problem. Inside the Tau system, you can still use them sure, but there is a heavy tradeoff.