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Whats with these "Reworks" everywhere?


-Sentient-
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I wouldn’t be surprised if DE would bring another Frame after Baruuk and a rework thread would appear. But the Meta can really affect judging a Frame and that would most likely make “Rework” threads happen since the game is mostly “kill every room as fast as possible” unless you are doing something like Endurance.

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4 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Why do people insist on making pointless meta-complaint threads?

because the low % of players who are on the forums and the even lower % of player who see this thread would be enlightened and change their wrong ways after seeing a post by a dude on the internet!!! 

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i feel like the word rework is misused alot and tho i do agree frames like atlas, ember, vauban, and wukong are currently at the bottom and are probly on the priority list for a rework, what other frames like frost, zephyr, valkyr, and revenant only need are simple and quick minor tweaks/buffs to get out anything that feel abit clunky (meaning they arent bad but not perfect either). yes i 100% agree the baddies should take first priority but at the same time i see where the other ppl are atleast coming from since some of the frames only need smaller fixes where it shouldnt have to be a trouble to fix in the first place.

Edited by ShenRyujin
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DE rarely does small tweaks, if they change the abilities of a frame, they do a rework, that's why. (and you can see why, look at Nyx, Ash or Ember now)

And most frames aren't in a bad state like the ones you mentioned but they still need reworks.

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Take one look at Vauban and tell me "this is fine and usable compared to other frames" when Sayrn nukes entire tilesets in seconds while Vauban can barely kill a single higher level enemy with any of his abilities.

Some frames are just not built for the current state of the game or have abilities that are either poorly designed or useless. (EFFING BOUNCE)

This is why people make rework threads, to draw attention to issues and suggest options so that frames don't just sit there collecting dust and being the butt of every Warframe joke.

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Just now, -Sentient- said:

"Dont take me wrong,I Know some frames need Reworks (Wukong,Vauban,Etc) " 

Even with that Etc. there, it doesn't mean that frames don't have bad abilities, even frames that are perfectly fine like Excalibur could use a tweak or change to one or two skills (radial javelin is in an awkward spot these days)/

It doesn't matter which frame it is, it can be Wukong, Vauban, or even frames that are otherwise fine like Frost, who mostly works well, but may need some tweaks to adjust some things when compared to enemy scaling (I find his 1 to be kinda pointless as-is personally but that's just me)

The concept still stands, the reason why people use "rework" as a blanket term is because its a simple catch-all for frame issues, and even if not every complaint is valid (or even serious) it doesn't change the fact that balance is a continuous effort which requires input, even stupid input like people wanting Sayrn buffed. (not gonna lie, I don't think I've seen this but as an example I'll use it.)

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20 часов назад, ShenRyujin сказал:

hat other frames like frost, zephyr, valkyr, and revenant only need are simple and quick minor tweaks/buffs to get out anything that feel abit clunky

Yea..no.

Ripline - half of the ability is not working

Warcry - tweaks

Paralysis - useless without augment

Hysterya - useless and will be changed will melee 3.0(I hope)

Shields - why?

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The standard for what counts as a "rework" in Warframe are pretty lax. A frame could receive minor gameplay changes to an ability and that would be enough to qualify as a rework. In this respect, I personally believe most, if not all warframes, could use some sort of rework, even if it doesn't need to always be a priority, because almost every frame has at least one dead ability, i.e. an ability that rarely if ever sees use. Chroma's 1, for example, is a mediocre ability that does nothing with the rest of his kit, and Zephyr's 2 isn't all that great outside of some forced synergy with her 4 either. Beyond that, some frames do genuinely have some design or balance problems that might require some deeper dives than just stat tweaks: Vauban and Nyx, for example, struggle in a meta where crowd control is no longer nearly as important as damage, even after a recent Nyx rework that didn't really solve her problems.

Beyond that, though, where I think calls for reworks become problematic is when players simply ask for frames to be buffed to compete with the absolute most powerful frame around: I've seen players ask for Ember to be buffed to become as good at killing enemies as Saryn, ignoring the fact that both Saryn and Ember cause problems when they can kill every enemy in a radius. Often, perceived problems in a frame are also a systemic issue: squishy frames such as Vauban, Nyx, Ember, even Banshee get criticized for not having some massive damage reduction ability in their kit, and several "rework" threads ask to replace one of their abilities with one, when the real problem at hand is simply that enemies eventually scale to the point where frames get one-shotted without some broken damage mitigation effect. Because of this, I can agree that certain rework suggestions aren't really needed, nor would they benefit frames or the game in the long run.

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The problem are the "main warframe" players and DE mentality of balancing usage

If certain players main a warframe, they want to use all of it's abilities, De also wants all the abilities of all warframes to be used equally, however reality is different.

Players that do things well, will among the warframe abilities pick the one they want, for example if you are going to kill enemies, you pick an ability that deals damage, not decoy, not disarm, no sleeping, no cc, nothin but a killing ability

DE hates this (for some reason i'm not completely sure), so if you complain to much, they will nerf the usefull ability and buff the other less used ones, this is obviously a disaster as the ability no longer does it's indented use and the others ones after carefull analisis remain worthless for that player.

For example, i only made saryn because the 1st ability now dealt corrosive procs, this was a nice change, but if players complain to much, DE might change what the 1st ability does, so the warframe will be placed in the unused section by me or others.

Warframes barely need reworks, good players overcome this despite it being annoying when said reworks happen, each warframe has a niche use and so the reality, (no matter how triggered some players may get) is this:

Reworks, no matter how frequent they are, will not make you a better player.

There are several levels of efficiency in the game

  • level 0 - no gameplay, afk gameplay (high probability of the player quiting due to grind, or a warn)
  • level 1 - you complete objectives
  • level 2 - you do objectives (this means you know what to do and how to succeed)
  • level 3 - You do objectives and you loot
  • level 4 - you do the objective, you loot and you do the mission fast

The vast majority of players, from youtubers, high MR players and so on are still at lvl 1 or 2, they may speed up missions, but running gets you nowhere but the mission reward, so you're simply completing or doing missions, nothing more.

Reworks cannot push you into higher efficiency gameplay, that is up to the player.

So yeah, you may main a warframe for the fun and all and you may want a rework because an ability from other warframes are stealing your kills or because you feel your warframe pales when compared with others, but in a overall view of things and on the long term, even a warframe with NO abilities, can be better than any warframe in the game atm, provided a player at level 4 efficiency is present.

I'll try and break it down into simple terms, if you give 2 players the task of 10 minutes of captures, a player with a level 4 efficiency will get more for the time they were on the missions, heck they might even do more missions, at the end the loot gathered by that player can easily reach 50x more and i'm being easy on this, meaning the less efficienct player needs 500 minutes of that same gameplay to even receive the same, you cannot change this with a simple rework, reworks do not alter that game in such magnitute.

A player effort in very minute things can easily be the equivalent of a rework they so desire.

 

Edited by KIREEK
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Some is because DE neglects to finish projects they start, including frames and some is power creep or nerfs.

Zephyr was a 1 button frame even when she released. Mag's Polarize one one-shotting Sorties. Chroma was one-shotting Bosses, Nekros was 1 button frame.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Often, perceived problems in a frame are also a systemic issue: squishy frames such as Vauban, Nyx, Ember, even Banshee get criticized for not having some massive damage reduction ability in their kit, and several "rework" threads ask to replace one of their abilities with one, when the real problem is a lack of player skill.

Ftfy 

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49 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Ftfy 

I wouldn't say that's entirely fair. Sure, in the case of a frame like Banshee, where her squishiness is deliberately meant to force her to use her potent CC properly, there's definitely an issue of some players failing to understand how she's meant to be played at higher levels. However, in the case of a frame like Vauban, a frame that is not only squishy but also encouraged to remain in the same area, the problem really does lie with the warframe, or at least the warframe's inability to deal with common high-level situations. At higher levels, the presence of AoE damage, AoE CC, hitscan weapons, and huge damage per hit means that even playing that sort of frame perfectly will still get you killed. In this respect, it's understandable to want some means of countering that, except giving every frame in the game a damage reduction steroid, simply because a frame needs one to be viable in the current meta, simply limits design, homogenizes and reduces gameplay, and does, as you suggest, cause certain players to not properly dodge.

Edited by Teridax68
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1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

I wouldn't say that's entirely fair. Sure, in the case of a frame like Banshee, where her squishiness is deliberately meant to force her to use her potent CC properly, there's definitely an issue of some players failing to understand how she's meant to be played at higher levels. However, in the case of a frame like Vauban, a frame that is not only squishy but also encouraged to remain in the same area, the problem really does lie with the warframe. At higher levels, he presence of AoE damage, AoE CC, hitscan weapons, and huge damage per hit means that even playing that sort of frame perfectly will still get you killed. In this respect, it's understandable to want some means of countering that, except giving every frame in the game a damage reduction steroid, simply because a frame needs one to be viable in the current meta, simply limits design, homogenizes and reduces gameplay, and does, as you suggest, cause certain players to not properly dodge.

It's almost encouraged at this point.

See Nyx's disarms removed and replaced with an afk. hit chance reduce as a passive instead of having to use situational awareness and working for not getting killed.

But i hope Banshee will stay at the place it's at, really far from the casual mob. First step to ensure that would be straight up deleting Sound Quake and giving Banshee a new, more viable 4..

Vauban just needs a rework really badly.

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On 2018-12-23 at 2:14 AM, GinKenshin said:

because the low % of players who are on the forums and the even lower % of player who see this thread would be enlightened and change their wrong ways after seeing a post by a dude on the internet!!! 

Or, these days playing to streamer cameras, hoping to get mentioned by that streamer. It's a plague on the larger game forums, and how this goes it trickles down the food chain and even become trolling material for the real trolls...

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769697748

Any attention is better than being lonely (and poor) I guess.

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