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Unlock the consciousness of our primes


Wind_Blade
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With the sacrifice we learned that all the consciousnesses of the warframes were locked. (although in the era of the orokins some could keep it temporarily as gara).
So I wonder if one day we will have a system like gravimag to give them back consciousness and help us as umbra does.

They can already do it if their operator is in mortal danger (the second dream and a dialogue of ballas in the sacrifice) so I'm sure it can be manually triggered.

Edited by Wind_Blade
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I doubt it would happen as just a flat out ability for all frames. They'll probably keep the sentience ability for Umbras only, given that they're supposed to be unique compared to primed and normal frames. I think the point of having the frame break War in the Second Dream was to allude to Excalibur Umbra in the Sacrifice and have conscious warframes.

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I would rather keep the sentience ability reserved to the Umbra frames themselves. 

 

(Spoilers for the sacrifice and for personal opinion on why umbras are special)

Spoiler

The only reason that they retain some form of sentience is due to the way that Ballas manipulated the strain of helminth as he basically tortured Isaah's father while he was changing into Umbra, leading him to eventually killing his own son. This caused him to be instilled with One, burning memory and that is what is causing his raging outbursts when umbra is remade in the foundry. It's also why he screams/howls (Or I would assume that would be the reason). Primes were just an alternate version of this strain that could just be recreated using the Umbra strain but with no live host during creation. That's why they both have gold trim, both were orokin made and were made from infested technocyte. However, one is just a mold for helminth (Primes) while the other required a live sacrifice (Umbras).

Above is just my opinion though, you are okay to disagree.

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il y a 5 minutes, Nowe999 a dit :

I would rather keep the sentience ability reserved to the Umbra frames themselves. 

 

(Spoilers for the sacrifice and for personal opinion on why umbras are special)

  Masquer le contenu

The only reason that they retain some form of sentience is due to the way that Ballas manipulated the strain of helminth as he basically tortured Isaah's father while he was changing into Umbra, leading him to eventually killing his own son. This caused him to be instilled with One, burning memory and that is what is causing his raging outbursts when umbra is remade in the foundry. It's also why he screams/howls (Or I would assume that would be the reason). Primes were just an alternate version of this strain that could just be recreated using the Umbra strain but with no live host during creation. That's why they both have gold trim, both were orokin made and were made from infested technocyte. However, one is just a mold for helminth (Primes) while the other required a live sacrifice (Umbras).

Above is just my opinion though, you are okay to disagree.

actualy every warframe still have their concienousses,

Révélation

umbra is special because ballas put him an "Burning Memory" than suprress the other, a warframe that live for this memory.

 

Edited by Wind_Blade
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1 hour ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Under no circumstances do I want Valkr running around my ship unsupervised

Sure but other’s would love it, Kink kitty playing with a kavat? Oh yeah, totally a base for that.

Booben polishing his armor? Mesa her guns, excal his sword?

Harrow reading a book?

Mirage booby trapping your foundry?

Edited by (PS4)teacup775
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As cool as that actually be, it would pretty much take the uniqueness away from Umbra, which I doubt that is what DE is trying to go for. It should really only stick to Excalibur Umbra and other Umbra frames if they were to be released in the future by any chance.

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1 hour ago, Nowe999 said:

I would rather keep the sentience ability reserved to the Umbra frames themselves. 

 

(Spoilers for the sacrifice and for personal opinion on why umbras are special)

  Hide contents

The only reason that they retain some form of sentience is due to the way that Ballas manipulated the strain of helminth as he basically tortured Isaah's father while he was changing into Umbra, leading him to eventually killing his own son. This caused him to be instilled with One, burning memory and that is what is causing his raging outbursts when umbra is remade in the foundry. It's also why he screams/howls (Or I would assume that would be the reason). Primes were just an alternate version of this strain that could just be recreated using the Umbra strain but with no live host during creation. That's why they both have gold trim, both were orokin made and were made from infested technocyte. However, one is just a mold for helminth (Primes) while the other required a live sacrifice (Umbras).

Above is just my opinion though, you are okay to disagree.

Spoiler

wait, no, Ballas already said, that even for the PRIME versions ( the first, at least ) they were also living being, "volunteer or not..." . the difference is that Umbra, like you said, was made with one burning and atrocious memory in mind. while the others were wipped out to clean blank slate.

 

Edited by mikakor
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2 hours ago, Nowe999 said:

I would rather keep the sentience ability reserved to the Umbra frames themselves. 

 

(Spoilers for the sacrifice and for personal opinion on why umbras are special)

  Reveal hidden contents

The only reason that they retain some form of sentience is due to the way that Ballas manipulated the strain of helminth as he basically tortured Isaah's father while he was changing into Umbra, leading him to eventually killing his own son. This caused him to be instilled with One, burning memory and that is what is causing his raging outbursts when umbra is remade in the foundry. It's also why he screams/howls (Or I would assume that would be the reason). Primes were just an alternate version of this strain that could just be recreated using the Umbra strain but with no live host during creation. That's why they both have gold trim, both were orokin made and were made from infested technocyte. However, one is just a mold for helminth (Primes) while the other required a live sacrifice (Umbras).

Above is just my opinion though, you are okay to disagree.

That’s a decent supposition, but I do recommend having a gander at the Mirage Prime trailer. In it, Ballas specifically notes that the Mirage Prime base subject was alive and conscious, that she laughed and that her consciousness twisted the design and changed the resulting Warframe model.

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23 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Primes don’t have consciousness. Only Umbra.

Our primes are made by the Helminth in our ship so it’s basically just an empty shell.

damnit, i'm trying to slap a spoiler. but basically..

you should do the sacrifice quest again. Ballas specify himself that every first prime warframes were made of humans. "they were chosen, volonteer, or not" . all of them were human.

Edited by mikakor
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well i did kinda muse the idea of you need the prime of the frame to make the umbra version since its seems like umbra are a side step to more a anti sentient power set with stats being the same as a prime but with altered abilities same result of the abilities with new effects tagged on 

Edited by seprent
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2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Primes don’t have consciousness. Only Umbra.

Our primes are made by the Helminth in our ship so it’s basically just an empty shell.

Well, so was Umbra.  It was a single magic blueprint, but we still had to manufacture it.  

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Being honest they should just turn primes into umbras like do a full rewrite of the game lore and move on because umbra feels like what a prime should have been and actual upgrade that has some kind of bonus feature but thats never happening so... IDK.

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You need to replay TS...there was a very specific reason why Umbra was able to keep his consciousness. 

On top of that his consciousness is half good half bad. While it makes things simpler sometimes I don't want other warframes break my stealth in spy mission like Umbra does.

Edited by Marvelous_A
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It's a thing I would agree to only if it was optional. I only recently relented and switched over to Umbra from my main man OG Excalibro because the stat increases are just so freakishly insane. And why I was reluctant to is because recently I have been making more and more use of my Operator and having a "Shoot everything first!" Rambonator three steps behind me just did not jive with my style. 

Umbra is a special case in many ways. Not only is it the origin of it, but it's design. As Ordis said about it "The transference bolt is different". Umbra is different at base design, meaning there's a chance if someone modified the blueprint of Umbra to have a standard Transference Bolt, he'd not be autonomous. I would see some kind of expensive and difficult to make upgrade module "Specter Transference bolt" or something that when put into a frame gives them the capability of being autonomous. But not because "memories of an ancient warrior" but because we took the basic programming of a Specter and put it in a flesh-bot. 

Personally, I don't have this same kind of veneration for Primes that some have. They are not Orokin era originals because WE BUILD THEM TODAY. Using modern (relatively speaking) manufacturing tech and materials. Using only Orokin era blueprints (which might actually be more like some kind of 3D framework that is filled in, thus explaining why we use up BPs) 

Hell, my own personal theory is that other then Umbra, not a single frame in existence now has any kinds of memories. The first ones were made from people, but then they were destroyed because they weren't usable. The rest were made using non-sentient, humanoid "flesh dolls". Ever look into what's inside the "Warframe Cryopod" we defend in missions? I believe that's a "proto frame" not a person. An engineered humanoid bioform that can be far more easily molded by the Helminth strain. And the parts we craft in our ship? Those are "Upgrade packages" that get implanted into this proto-frame during the conversion process. And since every single frame except for Umbra goes through the same steps of being made (Umbra being a case of not being a 4 day quest stopper) I don't see the validity of claims like "primes were the first!" when for damn near every single prime item in the game, the descriptions clearly state them being ornamental, ceremonial or just fancy. I know of maybe only three or four Prime items that are clearly described in their own fluff as predating the standard stuff. 

 

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3 hours ago, Chae3001 said:

Well, so was Umbra.  It was a single magic blueprint, but we still had to manufacture it.  

I was under the impression that we repair Umbra not rebuilt him, my evidence is that we find Umbras head intact during the scanning part, among other pieces of him. Would explain why the resource cost was so low.

Also if all the modern warframes are just "meat puppets" then what was the point of the Sacrifice if it didn't apply to all the warframes? It would have far less impact if it only applied to a select few warframes, and the whole symbiotic relationship between Operator and warframe is rendered pointless. 

I feel like those who just want the warframes to be mere tools just don't want to see themselves in a grey morality 

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On 2018-12-25 at 2:49 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because he was torn to pieces. The foundry put the pieces back together. And since he’s part infested that works.

Not what the quest says. Ordis is pretty clear on this topic:

Quote

"Almost crude. If you can get another scan I may be able to synthesize a partial schematic of the victim"

"Uncertain if any Tenno has linked with this design. The Transference bolt seems different, but we cannot build this without more data."

"I have been upgraded, Star-Child. Your Warframe blueprint now has the required data. Check Foundry."

"The Warframe I warned you not to build, that you build anyway, caused a massive Transference overload and damaged my precepts. It has escaped out into the system".

What make Umbra "special" is unclear the only information we are given that differs from the usual warframe is this:

Quote

Uncertain if any Tenno has linked with this design. The Transference bolt seems different, but we cannot build this without more data.

Everything in the virtuvian is stated as generic information about all Warframes, not Umbra specific, which is supported by the Valkyr and Mirage Prime trailers.

At some point the Orokin stopped using humans as raw materials and started duplicating and/or modifying past creations without the need for human sacrifice (as illustrated by using the Old-War-era foundry we find in the Orbiter)

We have no idea what make Umbra motive. Anyone claiming that we do is mistaken or making unsupported assumptions.

Construction of Umbra is identical to the process we use to construct Chroma (scanning and building a blueprint). Umbra Was tortured but so was Valkyr Prime and so was Mirage Prime. Umbra has memories but Mirage Prime is explicitly stated to have retained identity past the Warframe Creation Process.

All Warframe were stated in the Vitruvian as being uncontrollable until the Tenno "Taking their pain away". So unless there is something different about non-Umbra Warframes that we don't know about then the only option is that they "Had their pain taken away" before the currently-in-use-blueprints were created.

But we do not know enough to make a call. For all we know right now, any non-Umbra warframe we make is Sapient but suppressed by transference bolt. Which is a horrible thing to enforce on our characters by author fiat.

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