Riven Disposition is good, but you're using it wrong

[Smilomaniac]

Balance is overrated and people are fools if they believe that the end justifies the means.
Just because it's a trope, the point about this being a co-op game is still valid and should be kept in mind - No one is getting hurt from getting out competed on a pick up group exterminate. Find yourself a clan and make an effort to make friends instead of complaining about the pace.

Example 1:
All the sniper rivens except the Snipetron got nerfed. Okay. I don't like doing eidolons anyway, so it doesn't hurt me much. I probably should've sold my near perfect rubico riven, but I'll live.
What was the point of doing this exactly? Well it was in the name of balance of course, because people like things being fair.

So in effect when people go to farm their arcanes, killing eidolon weak points might take one more shot. It's not a big deal, but if that's the case then there's no valid argument for doing it in the first place.
All snipers still have a terrible fire rate and magazine capacity; They're clunky weapons that used to fill an entertainment niche (and sortie sniper only purposes) but now it fills a niche that's useful. In effect, the literal only change that has happened is to annoy players. This is not a good move.

Have the riven buffs made any other weapons viable for getting as many eidolon kills during the night as possible? No, it's still the same setups and it will be until you change the eidolons themselves or you nerf snipers into the ground.

Example 2:
I have a non melee weapon that has full disposition. It's an unpopular one and my riven has something along the lines of +180% crit damage and +250% damage. It does 12x crit damage.
There is nothing in the simulacrum that I don't wreck to absolute shreds with this thing and I've "mained" it for about a year. Obviously the system has failed because it's not been "discovered".
I honestly don't want to tell you what it is, because you'll nerf it for no other reason than some vapid belief in balance.

Example 3:
The Ignis riven took a hit as well. Again. The wraith version is an easy to get classic that is pretty fun to use with good effect.
Does this affect the weapons ability to clear all containers for cache/medallion/ayatan sculpture purposes? No, not at all. I've been using this thing without a riven for years and despite the questionable punch through nerf it's still the best weapon for this purpose. It remains an "OK" weapon for quick extermination missions and somewhere in the 'kinda viable' range for high level content.

Example 4:
Most of this game is a tedious grind and having the tools to do it quickly so that you can enjoy the fun parts of the game with your favourite equipment and your friends, is absolutely vital.
The issue doesn't lie in too powerful weapons, it has way more to do with level scaling, obnoxious enemies that grinds the game to a halt and snooze fest modifiers like 'energy reduction' on sorties that you put on almost every single day. For the love of the Lotus please address those things instead.

-------------------------

Let's be absolutely clear about something, the rivens were an economical inclusion in the game for two reasons; DE sells more plat for the sales between players, for the slots to hold the rivens and the forma because it takes somewhere between 3-7 to fit one. All the talk about balance is absolutely bollocks, because you could've easily done a DPS calculation for what the weapons should look like and taken a closer look at the outliers if there was a need for change.

The catering to the loud minority about "over used" weapons is not okay. The tonkor did not really need a self damage "nerf", the auto headshot removal was plenty (I preferred the penta anyway). The synoid simulor remains as annoying as ever, no amount of dps nerf is going to change that; All that was accomplished was that people just swapped over to the next best thing.

Anyway, the reason rivens deserve to be in the game is because they're FUN.
Friend of mine got a projectile speed javlok riven. Along with zephyr, he can throw that thing to the moon in an instant.
My secura cestras are absolutely hilarious with the fire rate increase I have on them. I have a handful of extremely overpowered rivens for unpopular weapons that make the game a breeze, which is very entertaining in its own right.

I'm not bringing this up because of some sort of salt over a weapon I like that got nerfed, it's quite the reverse as you buffed the twin kohmak and snipetron. I'm saying it because people are very very dumb and the miniscule outcry for "balance" while well meaning, is misplaced and results in making the game less fun.
If you want to eliminate the riven prices, then put a cap on how much you can trade per day in platinum (in the high hundreds). There you go, problem fixed, people can still trade primes, mods and whatever else along with the occasional big score. If the cap is an issue, then you've admitted fault and that the competitive prices are just a product of peoples greed and that its okay.

Bottom line, maybe you should stop nerfing rivens unless you've taken a very close look at what the end result actually is, instead of making sweeping changes that only serves to annoy players.
Balance doesn't mean everything performs equally, it means there's a bottom, top and median. Outliers are crucial and just as much a part of a truly balanced experience as bad and medium weapons.

[AzureTerra]

Looks like feedback. In general discussion again, people can apparently type it but cant read where they are typing it.

[Smilomaniac]

13 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

Looks like feedback. In general discussion again, people can apparently type it but cant read where they are typing it.

True, but if I want to have an impact, I want to reach the people who clamour for balance. Trying to reach the devs is about as productive as me writing an essay in game, in region chat.

A lot of people are stubborn about games in how they approach them and then complain about it being wrong rather than them not wanting to try something else.

Rather than balancing and rebalancing the game over and over and over again, it's much more productive to show them examples of how to go about it.

Go ahead, try giving it a read and give your own opinion, see if you can change someone elses.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Well, an opinion nonetheless. Don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less for "challenge" or "drought" or any other hot topic for that matter, and how some people will whine endlessly about every. single. nitpicky. thing. will always be beyond my apparently limited brain usage. The game is as it is, and change is a core part of. Therefore the old, but still true, "It's a game. Don't like it don't use it", that can be applied to everything.

As for rivens, and sticking to facts:

• Yes, they were created as a means to combat the lack of balance in weaponry. Was it the best application of a solution to such a problem? Debatable, but it exists and it's here anyhow.
• Are rivens supposed to be adjusted periodically in order to maintain that balance many desire so much? Yes. And DE shouldn't have gotten so pompous about this goal, only to leave it untouched pretty much until Mesa Prime, allowing players to get comfy with their rivens. So now half the community is 
• Are there different types of player in the game? Obviously. Some want Kuva to be absolutely everywhere from Kuva Fortress to Sorties, ESO, Arbitrations, Plat Packs, Lotus's behind, etc. (Apply this logic to anyone saying "I want this resource and it should be easily available everywhere and in bulk. Also remove all the resources I don't personally need" (I.e. Kuva, Endo, Standing, Relics, etc.). There are also players who dislike the whole riven system since it was implemented, yet they have to live with it as well.

So, it is a system, and it is doing what it is supposed to do. What gives?

---

Small Edit: And from my personal experience allow me to explain how I am personally dealing with these regular adjustments. I only keep rivens to weapons I'd use anyway regardless of them being good with rivens or not. Tigris is a bad gun to put a riven on (I only use disposition 3 and above, 2 in rare cases, absolutely never disposition 1), yet I still use it. Today I noticed that my Arca Plasmor riven was completely trashed so I removed it from my build and I'll store it until it's usable again. On the other side I happened to have a pretty "good" Boltor riven that was meant to sell because it was not worthy for me having such a low disposition. Guess what? It was buffed and my Boltor is now stronger because of that same riven I didn't want to use. Now I also regret selling a long time ago a Simulor riven I had, because I want one. And when I get it it'll be a permanent part of my collection.

So in short. Adapt builds, remove the useless riven and let it collect dust until the community isn't using it anymore. Wait for new buff, use it. Rinse and repeat over the cycles.

Change happens everywhere, specially in this game. Never was Darwin's law so true in modern times. "Adapt or be removed".

Edited April 3, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[AzureTerra]

I read it, think little of it and don't care for "changing" anyone else's thoughts on it. Getting the people who read this particular section of the forums to read a thing means little if you have worthwhile feedback for a particular topic its best to put it in the section where not only will DE have a reason to look at it the people who like to talk about "balance" will see it and talk about it.

[Marvelous_A]

If we don't need balance in a co-op game we wouldn't get rivens in the first place. Coz DE made this in hope of balancing usage of new and old (weak) weapons. 

Would you accept taking out the entire riven system then? Coz I have absolutely no problem with it.

[FlyingDice]

tl;dr more whining "feedback" in discussion from someone who doesn't grasp that rivens are both optional and subject to change.

[Smilomaniac]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Spoiler

Well, an opinion nonetheless. Don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less for "challenge" or "drought" or any other hot topic for that matter, and how some people will whine endlessly about every. single. nitpicky. thing. will always be beyond my apparently limited brain usage. The game is as it is, and change is a core part of. Therefore the old, but still true, "It's a game. Don't like it don't use it", that can be applied to everything.

As for rivens, and sticking to facts:

• Yes, they were created as a means to combat the lack of balance in weaponry. Was it the best application of a solution to such a problem? Debatable, but it exists and it's here anyhow.
• Are rivens supposed to be adjusted periodically in order to maintain that balance many desire so much? Yes. And DE shouldn't have gotten so pompous about this goal, only to leave it untouched pretty much until Mesa Prime, allowing players to get comfy with their rivens. So now half the community is 
• Are there different types of player in the game? Obviously. Some want Kuva to be absolutely everywhere from Kuva Fortress to Sorties, ESO, Arbitrations, Plat Packs, Lotus's behind, etc. (Apply this logic to anyone saying "I want this resource and it should be easily available everywhere and in bulk. Also remove all the resources I don't personally need" (I.e. Kuva, Endo, Standing, Relics, etc.). There are also players who dislike the whole riven system since it was implemented, yet they have to live with it as well.

So, it is a system, and it is doing what it is supposed to do. What gives?

---

Small Edit: And from my personal experience allow me to explain how I am personally dealing with these regular adjustments. I only keep rivens to weapons I'd use anyway regardless of them being good with rivens or not. Tigris is a bad gun to put a riven on (I only use disposition 3 and above, 2 in rare cases, absolutely never disposition 1), yet I still use it. Today I noticed that my Arca Plasmor riven was completely trashed so I removed it from my build and I'll store it until it's usable again. On the other side I happened to have a pretty "good" Boltor riven that was meant to sell because it was not worthy for me having such a low disposition. Guess what? It was buffed and my Boltor is now stronger because of that same riven I didn't want to use. Now I also regret selling a long time ago a Simulor riven I had, because I want one. And when I get it it'll be a permanent part of my collection.

So in short. Adapt builds, remove the useless riven and let it collect dust until the community isn't using it anymore. Wait for new buff, use it. Rinse and repeat over the cycles.

Change happens everywhere, specially in this game. Never was Darwin's law so true in modern times. "Adapt or be removed".

 

Valid arguments, different approach. Interestingly you seem to stick to a main weapon depending on the riven disposition and leave the "adapting" to when that changes.

Quick question, how do you hunt eidolons/get arcanes?

[Smilomaniac]

2 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

tl;dr more whining "feedback" in discussion from someone who doesn't grasp that rivens are both optional and subject to change.

Thanks for the bump, I appreciate it despite you missing all the points.

[AvPCelticPredator]

5 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Quick question, how do you hunt eidolons/get arcanes?

From various sides.

is that n00bish or PRO question!? 🤔

[Smilomaniac]

5 minutes ago, AvPCelticPredator said:

From various sides.

is that n00bish or PRO question!? 🤔

No, they used to drops from raids and now they drop from Eidolons. I'm asking how he personally does it.

See the point is in my original post, your typical build includes some hard hitting weapon (almost all being a riven'ed sniper rifle) in order to get as many eidolon kills as possible.
The eidolons themselves seem to be balanced around you having one, which means nerfing almost all of them seems to be an unintended nerf to effective/reasonable eidolon hunting, especially when you consider the amount of arcanes you can get and how rare some of them are.

I'm not sure DE considered this when doing the riven changes.

[Lost_Cartographer]

55 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Balance is overrated and people are fools if they believe that the end justifies the means.
Just because it's a trope, the point about this being a co-op game is still valid and should be kept in mind - No one is getting hurt from getting out competed on a pick up group exterminate. Find yourself a clan and make an effort to make friends instead of complaining about the pace.

A small tangent if I may...

In general, I'm okay with things being OP.  It gives me more room to mod my weaponry as I please rather than modding for ALL THE DAMURGE!!1!11!!!   It's why my favorite level range is 30-40.  Dangerous and tough enough to take seriously, but not so tough that can't afford to slot in a primed fast hands onto my primary.  And rivens?  They're like the ultimate nightmare/corrupted mod, and typically their utility/"fun" stats (reload speed, mag size, fire rate, etc.) blow any utility/fun mod out of the water.  Know what a magnus turns into with a -recoil, +mag size, +reload speed riven?  A Lato prime.  Tired of all these tiny mag revolvers for semi-auto pistols.

But some things can be fun killers, like mass AoE.  No matter how powerful a gun, if it can only mow down a line or small, tight cluster of enemies, it gives room for everyone else to find something to shoot too.  And shooting together down a choke packed with Grineer and watching bits and pieces fly out is just stupid fun.  But picking through guys that have been disarmed, blinded, and rooted in place or just outright killed with the press of a few buttons is just boring.

I get why DE balances out rivens, I really do.  Their latest concern with Warframe is to shake things up a bit and getting players to play with a variety of things.  I just wish they'd also focus on balancing out  existing mods, or at least buffing mods like slip magazine.  9 points for 30% more ammo!  ...Or I can pretty much double my damage with a single elemental mod for just 2 more points.  Hrm... tough call!

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

22 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Valid arguments, different approach. Interestingly you seem to stick to a main weapon depending on the riven disposition and leave the "adapting" to when that changes.

Quick question, how do you hunt eidolons/get arcanes?

I do not. Already taken care of a long time ago. When Chroma was not hit by the hammer and without a Rivened Lanka. And most of my arcanes where gotten during raids.

Now, let's also get out of the way that DE didn't exactly plan for players to do 4x3+ Tridolon Hunts, but what can I say. This community is amazing in finding ways to bypass the grind. I'm sure there's now some other weapon that can kill Eidolons just as fast. The same way Lanka and even Arca Plasmor were the go to weapons in y time, and no one cared for Rubico then.

Eidolons are not at all why rivens exist, and even without the Meta weaponry a good team can still make 3x3 Eidolons a night, which is plenty already. Saying a nerfed riven makes that impossible is like saying that it's unfair to have drones in Arbitrations because they make your "endless run" possibilities difficult. There are a lot of ways to go about the game, for every mode out there. And everthing gets changed at some point. Most of these changes are even surprise nerfs, like the ones done to frames and overall gear, yet all of us pretty much have to swallow and move on. At least everyone knows Rivens are meant to be like this and everyone can prepare for it.

Edited April 3, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[redkunaz]

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

Balance is overrated and people are fools if they believe that the end justifies the means.
Just because it's a trope, the point about this being a co-op game is still valid and should be kept in mind - No one is getting hurt from getting out competed on a pick up group exterminate. Find yourself a clan and make an effort to make friends instead of complaining about the pace.

Example 1:
All the sniper rivens except the Snipetron got nerfed. Okay. I don't like doing eidolons anyway, so it doesn't hurt me much. I probably should've sold my near perfect rubico riven, but I'll live.
What was the point of doing this exactly? Well it was in the name of balance of course, because people like things being fair.

So in effect when people go to farm their arcanes, killing eidolon weak points might take one more shot. It's not a big deal, but if that's the case then there's no valid argument for doing it in the first place.
All snipers still have a terrible fire rate and magazine capacity; They're clunky weapons that used to fill an entertainment niche (and sortie sniper only purposes) but now it fills a niche that's useful. In effect, the literal only change that has happened is to annoy players. This is not a good move.

Have the riven buffs made any other weapons viable for getting as many eidolon kills during the night as possible? No, it's still the same setups and it will be until you change the eidolons themselves or you nerf snipers into the ground.

Example 2:
I have a non melee weapon that has full disposition. It's an unpopular one and my riven has something along the lines of +180% crit damage and +250% damage. It does 12x crit damage.
There is nothing in the simulacrum that I don't wreck to absolute shreds with this thing and I've "mained" it for about a year. Obviously the system has failed because it's not been "discovered".
I honestly don't want to tell you what it is, because you'll nerf it for no other reason than some vapid belief in balance.

Example 3:
The Ignis riven took a hit as well. Again. The wraith version is an easy to get classic that is pretty fun to use with good effect.
Does this affect the weapons ability to clear all containers for cache/medallion/ayatan sculpture purposes? No, not at all. I've been using this thing without a riven for years and despite the questionable punch through nerf it's still the best weapon for this purpose. It remains an "OK" weapon for quick extermination missions and somewhere in the 'kinda viable' range for high level content.

Example 4:
Most of this game is a tedious grind and having the tools to do it quickly so that you can enjoy the fun parts of the game with your favourite equipment and your friends, is absolutely vital.
The issue doesn't lie in too powerful weapons, it has way more to do with level scaling, obnoxious enemies that grinds the game to a halt and snooze fest modifiers like 'energy reduction' on sorties that you put on almost every single day. For the love of the Lotus please address those things instead.

-------------------------

Let's be absolutely clear about something, the rivens were an economical inclusion in the game for two reasons; DE sells more plat for the sales between players, for the slots to hold the rivens and the forma because it takes somewhere between 3-7 to fit one. All the talk about balance is absolutely bollocks, because you could've easily done a DPS calculation for what the weapons should look like and taken a closer look at the outliers if there was a need for change.

The catering to the loud minority about "over used" weapons is not okay. The tonkor did not really need a self damage "nerf", the auto headshot removal was plenty (I preferred the penta anyway). The synoid simulor remains as annoying as ever, no amount of dps nerf is going to change that; All that was accomplished was that people just swapped over to the next best thing.

Anyway, the reason rivens deserve to be in the game is because they're FUN.
Friend of mine got a projectile speed javlok riven. Along with zephyr, he can throw that thing to the moon in an instant.
My secura cestras are absolutely hilarious with the fire rate increase I have on them. I have a handful of extremely overpowered rivens for unpopular weapons that make the game a breeze, which is very entertaining in its own right.

I'm not bringing this up because of some sort of salt over a weapon I like that got nerfed, it's quite the reverse as you buffed the twin kohmak and snipetron. I'm saying it because people are very very dumb and the miniscule outcry for "balance" while well meaning, is misplaced and results in making the game less fun.
If you want to eliminate the riven prices, then put a cap on how much you can trade per day in platinum (in the high hundreds). There you go, problem fixed, people can still trade primes, mods and whatever else along with the occasional big score. If the cap is an issue, then you've admitted fault and that the competitive prices are just a product of peoples greed and that its okay.

Bottom line, maybe you should stop nerfing rivens unless you've taken a very close look at what the end result actually is, instead of making sweeping changes that only serves to annoy players.
Balance doesn't mean everything performs equally, it means there's a bottom, top and median. Outliers are crucial and just as much a part of a truly balanced experience as bad and medium weapons.

dispo 1 shouldnt even exist. you are better off running vigilante armaments

[Smilomaniac]

4 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Spoiler

A small tangent if I may...

In general, I'm okay with things being OP.  It gives me more room to mod my weaponry as I please rather than modding for ALL THE DAMURGE!!1!11!!!   It's why my favorite level range is 30-40.  Dangerous and tough enough to take seriously, but not so tough that can't afford to slot in a primed fast hands onto my primary.  And rivens?  They're like the ultimate nightmare/corrupted mod, and typically their utility/"fun" stats (reload speed, mag size, fire rate, etc.) blow any utility/fun mod out of the water.  Know what a magnus turns into with a -recoil, +mag size, +reload speed riven?  A Lato prime.  Tired of all these tiny mag revolvers for semi-auto pistols.

But some things can be fun killers, like mass AoE.  No matter how powerful a gun, if it can only mow down a line or small, tight cluster of enemies, it gives room for everyone else to find something to shoot too.  And shooting together down a choke packed with Grineer and watching bits and pieces fly out is just stupid fun.  But picking through guys that have been disarmed, blinded, and rooted in place or just outright killed with the press of a few buttons is just boring.

I get why DE balances out rivens, I really do.  Their latest concern with Warframe is to shake things up a bit and getting players to play with a variety of things.  I just wish they'd also focus on balancing out  existing mods, or at least buffing mods like slip magazine.  9 points for 30% more ammo!  ...Or I can pretty much double my damage with a single elemental mod for just 2 more points.  Hrm... tough call!

 

Pretty much agree, the lack of new mods or revisions of existing mods is a sad state of affairs.
Making a weapon or warframe your own in some way, whether it's utility, performance or for fun has been the main staple of the game for most of its lifetime and then they just up and abandoned it, leaving it to "lootbox style" rivens that they then change in some unexplained and probably not very well thought out manner, it really is a shame.

 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

I do not. Already taken care of a long time ago. When Chroma was not hit by the hammer and without a Rivened Lanka. And most of my arcanes where gotten during raids.

Now, let's also get out of the way that DE didn't exactly plan for players to do 4x3+ Tridolon Hunts, but what can I say. This community is amazing in finding ways to bypass the grind. I'm sure there's now some other weapon that can kill Eidolons just as fast. The same way Lanka and even Arca Plasmor were the go to weapons in y time, and no one cared for Rubico then.

Fair enough, you're not the target demo for my post then. I appreciate the input anyway, despite our differences in priorities.

 

3 minutes ago, redkunaz said:

dispo 1 shouldnt even exist. you are better off running vigilante armaments

Not quite true, because you can stack crit, status or some other effect that you want with the other mods. They're not necessarily useless, but it does take a very specific riven to really do anything with it. For practical purposes, yes, they're almost entirely useless.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

2 hours ago, redkunaz said:

dispo 1 shouldnt even exist. you are better off running vigilante armaments

The point of disposition 1 is precisely to prevent you from using a riven. Why would you need OP stats, aka disposition 3+, on any powerful/meta weapon. As I said previously when answering OP, I do not use rivens with disposition 2 and lower. I got an Arca Plasmor Riven when it was disposition 3. I also had a Rubico and Supra Riven when those weapons had high dispositions and no one acknowledged them. Today I removed all 3 of these rivens from my builds and they'll collect dust precisely because for me they're not worth the slot anymore. I won't delete or sell them, however. I'll just wait for them to be worth a slot again, even if it takes years. Because I use rivens as a bonus on weapons that I already like, regardless of the rivens being actually good or not.

Am I mad because all these meta masses basically ruined my beloved rivens from the weapons I always liked? Not in the slightest. It was a risk from the beginning and I'll use my beloved weapons nonetheless, even if they are not as powerful as when they had Disposition 4.

The thing wrong with the riven system, imho, is not DE changing the values and making weapons "worthless", because they still are solid weapons without said rivens. It's people assuming that the worth of a weapon depends on a riven. Rivens depend on weapons, not the way around. And just to check how this is true I give you Kohm. Truly a poop weapon without riven. Was it touched? I am still to see a riven change in Kohm despite it's rise in popularity, because I bet that DE knows that the moment you are unable to reach 100% status pre-multishot that gun dies. At least if it does't get a stat buff, that is.

Edited April 3, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[Lutesque]

The Riven/Kuva grind is hands down the absolute most frustrating aspect of this game... but now to find out that DE can just waltz in and invalidate all that grinding you did to roll that God Tier Riven or worse... used real money to buy platinum to buy it from another player....

Sigh....

I don't even know anymore... I thought this couldn't get any worse.

[Mez999]

Like I said in the incredibly over the top salty development thread, I don’t get all of the issues. 

Have those persons who have been affected actually tested the weapons to see exactly what impact the riven changes have made? I suspect it has made a barely noticeable change or means they need to shoot that one whole extra shot. I also suspect that it has impacted on their specific play style i.e Eidolon hunting or long protracted missions.

This is a shooter first and foremost. The fact things can be one shotted, including entire mobs (looking at you, Arca Plasmor) isn’t exactly right when you look at it properly. I have no rivens on my Plasmor and I don’t need one on it because it will destroy anything in front of it. The whole point of using Warframes as well is to enhance our killing capability and support teammates. Again - if you can one shot entire mobs of enemies then why have abilities?! It just isn’t in the spirit of the game to have ridiculously overpowered weapons. 

I get that people are upset because they spent plat / money for plat / hours on Kuva grinding but they always said they would change. I saw someone who spent 400 hours grinding for one mod. I’m not one to comment on how others spend their time but seriously?! 

Embrace the change, click that extra one time and maybe try and use a different weapon or set up. 

Surely the real skill is being able to mod and use a weapon, alongside abilities, without a silly riven?!

[redkunaz]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

The point of disposition 1 is precisely to prevent you from using a riven. Why would you need OP stats, aka disposition 3+, on any powerful/meta weapon. As I said previously when answering OP, I do not use rivens with disposition 2 and lower. I got an Arca Plasmor Riven when it was disposition 3. I also had a Rubico and Supra Riven when those weapons had high dispositions and no one acknowledged them. Today I removed all 3 of these rivens from my builds and they'll collect dust precisely because for me they're not worth the slot anymore. I won't delete or sell them, however. I'll just wait for them to be worth a slot again, even if it takes years. Because I use rivens as a bonus on weapons that I already like, regardless of the rivens themselves or not.

Am I mad because all these meta masses basically ruined my beloved rivens from the weapons I always liked? Not in the slightest. It was a risk from the beginning and I'll use my beloved weapons nonetheless, even if they are not as powerful as when they had Disposition 4.

The thing wrong with the riven system, imho, is not DE changing the values and making weapons "worthless", because they still are solid weapons without said rivens. It's people assuming that the worth of a weapon depends on a riven. Rivens depend on weapons, not the way around. And just to check how this is true I give you Kohm. Truly a poop weapon without riven. Was it touched? I am still to see a riven change in Kohm despite it's rise in popularity, because I bet that DE knows that the moment you are unable to reach 100% status pre-multishot that gun dies. At least if it does't get a stat buff, that is.

soma prime 1>2 is powefull meta weapon?  boltor 1>2? 

WHY WAS TIBERON A 5 THEN? the whole system is garbage   .  prisma gorgon > soma > telos  boltor .  meanwhile gorgon is a 5 now

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by redkunaz

[Smilomaniac]

1 minute ago, Mez999 said:

Like I said in the incredibly over the top salty development thread, I don’t get all of the issues. 

Have those persons who have been affected actually tested the weapons to see exactly what impact the riven changes have made? I suspect it has made a barely noticeable change or means they need to shoot that one whole extra shot. I also suspect that it has impacted on their specific play style i.e Eidolon hunting or long protracted missions.

This is a shooter first and foremost. The fact things can be one shotted, including entire mobs (looking at you, Arca Plasmor) isn’t exactly right when you look at it properly. I have no rivens on my Plasmor and I don’t need one on it because it will destroy anything in front of it. The whole point of using Warframes as well is to enhance our killing capability and support teammates. Again - if you can one shot entire mobs of enemies then why have abilities?! It just isn’t in the spirit of the game to have ridiculously overpowered weapons. 

I get that people are upset because they spent plat / money for plat / hours on Kuva grinding but they always said they would change. I saw someone who spent 400 hours grinding for one mod. I’m not one to comment on how others spend their time but seriously?! 

Embrace the change, click that extra one time and maybe try and use a different weapon or set up. 

Surely the real skill is being able to mod and use a weapon, alongside abilities, without a silly riven?!

Everything you say is entirely reasonable, if it was in a vaccuum.

The rubico did take a hit and will undoubtedly be hit even further because of what it does, so yes there is a noticable change. As for all the other snipers, eh, it's fine, but then my original point remains: Why change the rivens for them in the first place? Because DE looked at what weapons got a "used" bump.

Everything being one shot is dumb, I agree. Except for the fact that grinding is a core part of the game and there are thousands of missions that you have to go through where being able to cut down swathes of enemies becomes vital. We can still do that, but there are several examples of weapons that did that, that got the nerf hammer. DE does not like this and it shows, but I think they're probably influenced a bit more than they're willing to admit by the constant whining.
As for your argument of why you should have abilities when you have powerful weapons, that's a bit of a dumb one. Why have weapons at all when you can clear missions easily just by using abilities? Because variety and because making builds is THE core of the game.

Also, have you tried a sortie lephantis with some physical or elemental enhancement? It's easily a half hour bulletsponge unless all people build correctly for it and then it'll still take a good while. DE makes some good stuff, but they are absolutely trash at making boss fights and to an extent I'd argue they still are - Exploiter is mostly a time waste.

What you're arguing for is not to "embrace change", that's something you could argue with the Nightwave system. Embracing a pointless nerf is just blind acceptance of a bad change made for no discernible reason. DE vastly overestimates how much "fun" it is to spend more than five minutes in any given mission that isn't endless.

[KiteoHatto]

I agree with OP's first example.

I think it's very logical to have niche weapon types such as snipers be EXEMPT from riven changes.

 

Reason being:

Hunting eidolons is part of the progression in this game and the most effective way to take out limbs is a high-powered precise hits. While it's certainly possible, it's very "unoptimised" to use anything else.

 

Meanwhile for general play you can use any weapon and have an "effective" time, well...other than bringing a sniper to 99% of the missions.

 

So while the rivens don't nerf the weapons directly, they do influence their effectiveness for certain situations. This effect is highly noticable if the situation pretty much requires a specific type of weapon( such as snipers) and said weapons are widely used for such specific activity...which is 1% of the game. So..nerfing the widely used riven for a specific type of weapon just because of it's niche popularity is....not fair or logical due to how the weapon type is used.

 

When sniper dispo changes, it's actually an indirect nerf to eidolon hunting because snipers are less effective as a whole. (it makes no sense to even use snipetron for eidolons)

Edited April 3, 2019 by KiteoHatto

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

Example 3:
The Ignis riven took a hit as well. Again. The wraith version is an easy to get classic that is pretty fun to use with good effect.
Does this affect the weapons ability to clear all containers for cache/medallion/ayatan sculpture purposes? No, not at all. I've been using this thing without a riven for years and despite the questionable punch through nerf it's still the best weapon for this purpose. It remains an "OK" weapon for quick extermination missions and somewhere in the 'kinda viable' range for high level content.

'Kinda Viable'

It can destroy level 100+ Bombards with barely any effort on an incomplete, 6-mod build. Might not be Saryn levels of speed or range with that, but it's still basically just W+M1 and go get a coffee. It does not need a riven.

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

Most of this game is a tedious grind and having the tools to do it quickly so that you can enjoy the fun parts of the game with your favourite equipment and your friends, is absolutely vital.
The issue doesn't lie in too powerful weapons, it has way more to do with level scaling, obnoxious enemies that grinds the game to a halt and snooze fest modifiers like 'energy reduction' on sorties that you put on almost every single day. For the love of the Lotus please address those things instead.

This, though, I agree with, although they are apparently working on at least the scaling part. They've mentioned a few times now that they're working on damage 3.0 - Steve tweeted about it as well.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

I’m inclined to believe that riven balances are not purely for actual gameplay fairness. We can already one shot everything with or without them. I see the changes as another way to balance the market and trade aspect of rivens. That’s the only take away I have been getting from the last few riven nerfs. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Rivens were a mistake, they are power creep plain and simple and we've seen this occur ever since Primed mods were introduced, more and more power creep without ever changing the base scaling of the enemies. You don't require a riven for any content in the game, they are luxuries and if you choose to push further and further into endurance endgame, there's very little use for rivens there either as pretty much every weapon falls off eventually and nuking strats become the only way to continue or possibly covert lethality if in single player.

What rivens should've been from the off, is options. What do I mean? Remove stat possibilities like Crit damage, Crit chance etc and keep things like reload speed, fire rate, etc make rivens essentially "augments" for our weapons with an ACTUAL riven slot for each weapon to place these in. The reason for the augment slot is so they aren't simply passed over in favour of "better in slot" mods ie damage, multishot and it would allow us to customise our weaponry. Instead of "muh gun does biggest damage yeet"  it could be tailored more personally towards a player's individual playing style for example it might have a stat that increases warframe movement speed, or procs self healing for a few seconds etc things that while being a bonus and adding customisation, wouldn't become purely meta to make the weapon the best it can be. That's what rivens should've been, not power creep, meta BS with every new player convinced he needs a god tier riven for each weapon so it's not "trash tier" and being swindled out of his plat by some greedy whale lying about what the riven is worth.

Simple fix by the way that DE will never do cos they make too much money off them, NO OTHER REASON...

MAKE RIVENS UNTRADEABLE.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Zilchy

[TheFinalEpic]

^ My mastery rank (with the new equinox prime, stradvar prime, i can get 27 when I get around to farming it)

 

Why did I show it?

 

To this day, I have never used a Riven mod (i've sold them all veiled, its actually quite a nice plat income) and I have a blast with the game. I knew the moment I finished the War Within and the inclusion of the Riven system that it was going to be an asinine system to deal with.

 

People using Rivens should know the fine print that it's GOING to get changed. Those who cry for buffs and nerfs of rivens... idk lol. Its a slot machine for those that wanted a slot machine for even more godlike power than the already godlike power we have.

 

I'm really glad DE never made Riven essential to main gameplay (like you NEED a riven for some sort of content, you don't),

 

 

 

but I will say something, as much as I love DE and will continue to support them, they have really really horrible balance in terms of numbers and abilities on stats.

Edited April 3, 2019 by TheFinalEpic