Riven Disposition is good, but you're using it wrong

[le_souriceau]

Rivens, by their disign were NOT for balance (at least mainly).

They sneaked into game with intent to stimulate milking of plat-buying whales (and this can be even good for game itself as financial entity). Everything else just some kind of colliteral fun and damage.

Because if DE really want to balance things up, its pretty easy - just add stats to weaker weapons, may be add some interesting mods to play around. But no. They added riven casino/hysteria generator.

Edited April 3, 2019 by le_souriceau

[Test-995]

Just now, TheFinalEpic said:

To this day, I have never used a Riven mod 

Yes, that's the exact reason why you can have a blast with this game.

[Mez999]

16 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

The rubico did take a hit and will undoubtedly be hit even further because of what it does, so yes there is a noticable change. As for all the other snipers, eh, it's fine, but then my original point remains: Why change the rivens for them in the first place? Because DE looked at what weapons got a "used" bump.

This area I do agree with you on.  I think their usage of "popularity" to determine nerfs is flawed.  Taking your examples of snipers, they are popular because they are used consistently for a niche area (i.e. Eidolon hunting).  They statistics are therefore skewed incorrectly.  What they need to do, in my opinion, is look at popularity statistics in the proper way of looking at mean values - remove the extremes on both ends and then review.  For snipers, remove the statistics relating to Eidolon hunting and THEN see just how popular the weapon is.  I suspect that the results will be extremely different and probably result in a buff!

16 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

As for your argument of why you should have abilities when you have powerful weapons, that's a bit of a dumb one. Why have weapons at all when you can clear missions easily just by using abilities? Because variety and because making builds is THE core of the game.

I think my statement was either poorly written or misread.  I was trying to infer that Warframe abilities are an important part of the game and should be used in conjunction with weapons to complete the objective and clear the enemies.  I agree that variety and making builds are the core of the game.  Hence my point that using a single gun constantly (removing niche examples like snipers here) is against the spirit of the game.  A build should be about carrying multiple status types and synergising with your abilities, not pressing M1 (or pressing 4 but that's a different matter).

 

7 minutes ago, (XB1)A Excal Umbra said:

I’m inclined to believe that riven balances are not purely for actual gameplay fairness. We can already one shot everything with or without them. I see the changes as another way to balance the market and trade aspect of rivens. That’s the only take away I have been getting from the last few riven nerfs. 

I agree as well that this is probably a factor in their decision.  The market is controlled and ridiculously expensive for what the weapons actually provide.

[SenorClipClop]

54 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

The tonkor did not really need a self damage "nerf", the auto headshot removal was plenty (I preferred the penta anyway)

Nothing to do with Rivens, but okay.

55 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Anyway, the reason rivens deserve to be in the game is because they're FUN.
Friend of mine got a projectile speed javlok riven. Along with zephyr, he can throw that thing to the moon in an instant.
My secura cestras are absolutely hilarious with the fire rate increase I have on them. I have a handful of extremely overpowered rivens for unpopular weapons that make the game a breeze, which is very entertaining in its own right.

Thing is, the major targets of Riven nerfs are the opposite of the examples you give. Some Rivens are getting  toned down because they are for meta weapons and make those weapons even more meta, so that tons of people don't play anything else, purely because it is the most numerically powerful thing. The meta has to do with two things: raw power (Plasmor) and low effort (Ignis). Fun is not a target here.

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

maybe you should stop nerfing rivens unless you've taken a very close look at what the end result actually is, instead of making sweeping changes that only serves to annoy players.

I'm pretty sure they have, knew it was going to upset some people, and did it foe the health of the game. Sometimes running the game the way you want it to run means occasionally not giving the players what they want. It's absurd to think they'd do this just to bother people, as they want us to enjoy the game. They just also want it to be a fairer game, and that's why some things get nerfed.

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

Most of this game is a tedious grind and having the tools to do it quickly so that you can enjoy the fun parts of the game with your favourite equipment and your friends, is absolutely vital.

But it's a bad move to solve one problem (tedious gameplay) with another problem (items that trivialize that gameplay). Don't lean on that excuse, ask for more interesting gameplay.

But aside from that, look at the stats and evaluate how much complaining their changes actually warrant. Is 5% less Status Chance on your Ignis Wraith build really slowing your grind through Level 30 content?

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, redkunaz said:

soma prime 1>2 is powefull meta weapon?  boltor 1>2? 

WHY WAS TIBERON A 5 THEN? the whole system is garbage   .  prisma gorgon > soma > telos  boltor .  meanwhile gorgon is a 5 now

 

Before REEEE, you should inform yourself on how these adjustments work.

Particularly v

Now, I'll sum it up quickly. An adjustment never suffers beyond "one pip", meaning 0.2 points at one time. Then, you must consider 3 things:

• Weapon usage/ownership doesn't always equal popularity. There are cases in which these are completely different categories. Case in point, Gorgon.
• There are a lot of other factors considered when balancing a riven disposition value, other than solely popularity. There's also the fact that a weapon can have multiple versions.
• The MR of said weapon also counts, since in the last great gun rebalance (not to confuse with riven rebalance) many guns were either buffed/nerfed to meet what would be expected from a weapon of their current MR, as much as many weapon's MR rank were readjusted in order to meet the stats they have. Some were buffed, some were nerfed, some have now a lower MR, some now have a higher MR, and that affects rivens as well, because all rivens are supposed to do is make weak weapons viable, not the way around.

So:

• Soma was buffed only a bit, because Soma is no longer what it once was, and DE could not buff it yet for more than 0.2 points. Not in a single adjustment, that is. If it's still too weak of a weapon for it's low MR I'm sure it'll have another pip buff in 3 months.
• Boltor: Read Soma; These are pretty much sister guns regarding their history. But Boltor still can hold on its own despite that.
• Gorgon: A weapon most people have, yet rare in missions, and rare in riven demand. Weapon ownership high, popularity not low, but average at best, and probably because of rivens mostly (see Kohm example from other comment). Given the 0.5 pip buff I can assume it's nearly at the desired level of balance.
• Tiberon: Again, like Soma and Boltor, but in reverse. See that it suffered a nerf of a whole 0.2. I can see a steady nerf on this one for the next few prime releases.
• Extra - Catchmoon; Was also nerfed by a whole Pip and is easily the most demanded gun/riven from Kitguns, closely followed by Rattleguts and Tombfinger. Expect this 0.2 nerf to be the beggining only, though DE has already stated that they do intend to keep them nearly as powerful as they are, or such could be interpreted.

Small disclaimer, however: Whenever I mention any particular gun I don't mean just "that" version of the gun. I'm talking about the gun and all it's variants at the same time. Because while many may not have a Gorgon Wraith/Prisma, many do have a regular version somewhere in their accounts, surely. 

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[Smilomaniac]

8 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Spoiler

 

Nothing to do with Rivens, but okay.

Thing is, the major targets of Riven nerfs are the opposite of the examples you give. Some Rivens are getting  toned down because they are for meta weapons and make those weapons even more meta, so that tons of people don't play anything else, purely because it is the most numerically powerful thing. The meta has to do with two things: raw power (Plasmor) and low effort (Ignis). Fun is not a target here.

I'm pretty sure they have, knew it was going to upset some people, and did it foe the health of the game. Sometimes running the game the way you want it to run means occasionally not giving the players what they want. It's absurd to think they'd do this just to bother people, as they want us to enjoy the game. They just also want it to be a fairer game, and that's why some things get nerfed.

But it's a bad move to solve one problem (tedious gameplay) with another problem (items that trivialize that gameplay). Don't lean on that excuse, ask for more interesting gameplay.

But aside from that, look at the stats and evaluate how much complaining their changes actually warrant. Is 5% less Status Chance on your Ignis Wraith build really slowing your grind through Level 30 content?

 

 

The post is about balance and nerfing with focus on the rivens, so the tonkor reference was entirely relevant.

By far most of the game is repitition and grinding - Getting through that expediently does work towards you having more fun in the game, so even if an ignis is low effort, it's still important. Your point would've been good if it was in a vaccuum, but it's not.
Did the nerf slow down the ignis grind? By a miniscule amount maybe, but as I've repeated throughout the thread, if the amount doesn't matter, then why do it. If it makes no difference and it pisses off players, then it's not only pointless, it's insulting. You're not making a very good case here, it's mostly just excuses on behalf of the change.

The game has been trivialized for most of its lifetime, there are plenty of OP combinations of weapons and warframes. It's why when I want to have fun I press the randomize button. You try doing a sortie with non-potatoed weapons/frames and see how "trivial" it is. As for what makes it trivial, that's the labor of your efforts and having that taken away is a kick in the nuts. No matter how light the kick, it still leaves a pretty bad impression.

Nothing that I've seen has made the game "fairer" in any way, you're going to have to point out not only good examples, but ones that outweigh the negatives.

[AvPCelticPredator]

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

No, they used to drops from raids and now they drop from Eidolons. I'm asking how he personally does it.

See the point is in my original post, your typical build includes some hard hitting weapon (almost all being a riven'ed sniper rifle) in order to get as many eidolon kills as possible.
The eidolons themselves seem to be balanced around you having one, which means nerfing almost all of them seems to be an unintended nerf to effective/reasonable eidolon hunting, especially when you consider the amount of arcanes you can get and how rare some of them are.

I'm not sure DE considered this when doing the riven changes.

I dont understand what are u talking about, but peeps hunting eidolon bosses on PoE during night, and bosses drops arcanes after captures.

So, what point u cannot understand?

Which equipment they use for hunt, which builds for frames, weapons...etc!?

Is that what u trying to ask!

[VincentHelmic]

Ultimately people are going to argue against pretty much anything if it means that their setup gets even a little weaker.  A long list of varied and viable weapons that allow players to make any weapon they've grown attached to just as good as the meta wepons?  A longer list of warframes that have useful niches, that aren't outmoded by frames that can just outright kill the problem away?  A less buggy and more intuitive game where it isn't necessary to have an encyclopedic knowledge of exploits to perform as well as others?

Nope, all those things might mean I have to go find some other top% build.  Gotta hold the whole damn game hostage so that someone, somewhere, doesn't have their build slightly nerfed, even though all the numbers are relative and it's not like the game is going to get appreciably more difficult when people are oneshotting Eidolon limbs anyways.

[AvPCelticPredator]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Because while many may not have a Gorgon Wraith/Prisma, many do have a regular version somewhere in their accounts, surely. 

I dont have neither version i was rank them and sold them for CR long time ago, cuz i dont like how their fire mod works, they can be modified by DE to be so so OP, but even if they do that I will never use weapon sush Gorgon, just cuz of that fire mod effect how work.

[Justin_Case001]

When rivens were first introduced, I decided not to bother with them because I didn't want to open up this can of worms.  I recently caved and decided to buy a few rivens, mostly because I've earned a lot of plat and had nothing else I wanted to spend it on.  Rivens are a lot of fun and I've been having a blast with them.  I haven't been using them for long enough to have experienced any changes until now.  One of my favorite weapons got hit, and I'm pretty sour about it simply because I paid a pretty penny for that riven just a few days ago, and now my build is kinda ruined.  I'm not complaining that the riven or the weapon is garbage, but the fact is that the riven is now about the same as the regular mod I swapped out.  It's a wash.  I'm pretty upset because I feel like I wasted a good bit of plat.  I know I have only myself to blame; I was well aware of how the riven disposition system works, and I should have trusted my better judgement and just stayed out of it so I wouldn't get burned.

Personally, I really think that the disposition should have nothing to do with weapon usage statistics.  I think that having dispositions is fine, and makes sense, but it should be based on the weapons' stats, not how many people choose to use it.  My build didn't get ruined because DE decided that it was too OP; I'm just getting punished because too many other people like my weapon.  This doesn't seem right or fair to me.  This would be like if I bought a new computer, and then six months later, the company I bought it from called up and said that sales for that model of computer have increased, so they're going to take some of my RAM away.  Could you even imagine such a thing?!  Better weapons getting worse rivens and vice versa makes sense, and helps maintain balance, but why should it make any difference if more people decide to use a weapon?  I don't think that rivens should be subject to change.  It's not the same thing as necessary balance tweaks to base stats.  People pay good plat for these rivens, and it seems unfair to me to sneak in and change what they paid for after they bought it..  I know, I know--that was the system from the beginning.  It's a gamble, and it's transparent.  I'm saying that I don't think it's right.

But that's just one Tenno's opinion.  I could be wrong, and if I am, I'm sure you'll let me know.  Thanks for reading.

[AvPCelticPredator]

Here is what DE must to do to make balance in the game between all weapons:

• For example, if one weapon have strong "Base" stats, his Riven mod, must to have "Low" disposition, and if weapon have low "Base" stats, his Riven mod, must to have "Strong" disposition.

Only like that DE can make balance in the game.

Also Riven mods must to have only 3 disposition ranks, not 5.

[AvPCelticPredator]

8 minutes ago, Justin_Case001 said:

When rivens were first introduced, I decided not to bother with them because I didn't want to open up this can of worms.  I recently caved and decided to buy a few rivens, mostly because I've earned a lot of plat and had nothing else I wanted to spend it on.  Rivens are a lot of fun and I've been having a blast with them.  I haven't been using them for long enough to have experienced any changes until now.  One of my favorite weapons got hit, and I'm pretty sour about it simply because I paid a pretty penny for that riven just a few days ago, and now my build is kinda ruined.  I'm not complaining that the riven or the weapon is garbage, but the fact is that the riven is now about the same as the regular mod I swapped out.  It's a wash.  I'm pretty upset because I feel like I wasted a good bit of plat.  I know I have only myself to blame; I was well aware of how the riven disposition system works, and I should have trusted my better judgement and just stayed out of it so I wouldn't get burned.

Personally, I really think that the disposition should have nothing to do with weapon usage statistics.  I think that having dispositions is fine, and makes sense, but it should be based on the weapons' stats, not how many people choose to use it.  My build didn't get ruined because DE decided that it was too OP; I'm just getting punished because too many other people like my weapon.  This doesn't seem right or fair to me.  This would be like if I bought a new computer, and then six months later, the company I bought it from called up and said that sales for that model of computer have increased, so they're going to take some of my RAM away.  Could you even imagine such a thing?!  Better weapons getting worse rivens and vice versa makes sense, and helps maintain balance, but why should it make any difference if more people decide to use a weapon?  I don't think that rivens should be subject to change.  It's not the same thing as necessary balance tweaks to base stats.  People pay good plat for these rivens, and it seems unfair to me to sneak in and change what they paid for after they bought it..  I know, I know--that was the system from the beginning.  It's a gamble, and it's transparent.  I'm saying that I don't think it's right.

But that's just one Tenno's opinion.  I could be wrong, and if I am, I'm sure you'll let me know.  Thanks for reading.

Agreed, it will be better that DE are change weapons base stats, than riven nerfs.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

14 minutes ago, VincentHelmic said:

Ultimately people are going to argue against pretty much anything if it means that their setup gets even a little weaker.  A long list of varied and viable weapons that allow players to make any weapon they've grown attached to just as good as the meta wepons?  A longer list of warframes that have useful niches, that aren't outmoded by frames that can just outright kill the problem away?  A less buggy and more intuitive game where it isn't necessary to have an encyclopedic knowledge of exploits to perform as well as others?

Nope, all those things might mean I have to go find some other top% build.  Gotta hold the whole damn game hostage so that someone, somewhere, doesn't have their build slightly nerfed, even though all the numbers are relative and it's not like the game is going to get appreciably more difficult when people are oneshotting Eidolon limbs anyways.

You wanna know the funny thing in what you said? "People are going to argue against pretty much anything if it means that their setup gets even a little weaker". Which is rather true.

And what's also what's true is that everyday threads come up complaining about challenge and endgame. In other words, sacrificing the Warframe's current OP'ness and over the top genocidal capabilities.

I mostly like being OP, with a hint of challenge every now and then, and the game is perfect as is for me. But having both sides prioritized equally is impossible. Either people have challenge, or they are OP, at least for the full game with the mechanics it presently has. But "we" can't decide what we want.

[(PSN)Double991]

Certain weapons will always benefit from a riven no matter the disposition such as range on the Zenistar even if it was 1/5. On the other hand some weapons can't be saved even if their disposition was miraculously increased to 10/5.

[The_Mustachio]

4 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

I honestly don't want to tell you what it is, because you'll nerf it for no other reason than some vapid belief in balance.

 

Well I know who’s profile I’m checking when I get home. Also, all the 5/5 rivens are listed on the wiki. 

[YazMatazO]

I think rivens are fine, to be honest. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

No, they used to drops from raids and now they drop from Eidolons. I'm asking how he personally does it.

See the point is in my original post, your typical build includes some hard hitting weapon (almost all being a riven'ed sniper rifle) in order to get as many eidolon kills as possible.
The eidolons themselves seem to be balanced around you having one, which means nerfing almost all of them seems to be an unintended nerf to effective/reasonable eidolon hunting, especially when you consider the amount of arcanes you can get and how rare some of them are.

I'm not sure DE considered this when doing the riven changes.

Not gonna jump to assumptions here but have you done much Eidolon hunting? You absoutely do not need a riven to 1 shot each limb and maintain the speed of say a 5x3. Rivens are luxury and make it easier sure, they are an allowance for a players lack of skill. If you successfully keep your combo counter high, bring the correct frames and buff correctly, you can still do hunts very effectively. You lose far more time in a hunt not quickly downing shields, most of the time lost in a min maxed hunt is on the Teralyst's first few shields.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Zilchy

[Voltage]

3 hours ago, Mez999 said:

The market is controlled and ridiculously expensive for what the weapons actually provide.

High Riven prices never transfer into their damage output. When you are buying something for 4,5,10, 15+ thousand Platinum, you are buying the specific roll, the uniqueness of the roll, the trophy, AND the output damage. The Rivens that get insanely expensive are collector stimulants like Primed Chamber.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Voltage

[Voltage]

24 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Not gonna jump to assumptions here but have you done much Eidolon hunting? You absoutely do not need a riven to 1 shot each limb and maintain the speed of say a 5x3. Rivens are luxury and make it easier sure, they are an allowance for a players lack of skill. If you successfully keep your combo counter high, bring the correct frames and buff correctly, you can still do hunts very effectively. You lose far more time in a hunt not quickly downing shields, most of the time lost in a min maxed hunt is on the Teralyst's first few shields.

There are setups that can 1-shot the Eidolon limb without any base combo meter going. It doesn't compensate for a lack of skill. It adds fluidity, consistency, and speed to a run. You don't need Rivens to do 5x3, but 5/6 tridolons are much more enjoyable when they go smoother which is what Rivens allow for. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Voltage said:

There are setups that can 1-shot the Eidolon limb without any base combo meter going. It doesn't compensate for a lack of skill. It adds fluidity, consistency, and speed to a run. You don't need Rivens to do 5x3, but 5/6 tridolons are much more enjoyable when they go smoother which is what Rivens allow for. 

Yeh that exists as well, I was mainly speaking in terms of a normal 5x3 hunt with a normal setup, combo multiplier then helps. Agreed the runs are smoother, as I said they are luxuries. They should've been introduced as augments for weapons, with an added riven slot in each weapon, doing away with stats like crit dmg, crit chance etc as I previously mentioned.

[-Bv-Psykiik]

the funny thing is rivens were the only thing that kept me buy plat ones or twice every month after i maxed everything but now i dont see a reason to keep invest on something that will get hit every 3 months (4 times a year)

1 roll cost 3500, you go to kuva surviv for 1 hour or to flood 4 or 5 times to get enough kuva just for 2 or 3 rolls ... all that time and effort for just 2 or 3 mouse clicks but its worth .. i mean was worth ... wy would i go do that again and i know in less than 3 months i will get hit again by riven hammer 

simple fix to this is .. same way DE categorized weapons by MR they can categorize dispositions by MR too .. like how is the " the higher the MR required to equip a weapon .. the higher the stats these weapons have (more powerful)" ..DE can do " the Higher the MR required to equip a weapon .. the lower the disposition these weapon s have" 

so these big numbers  200-300% dmg/CC/CD/range ..etc can only be seen on low MR weapons and its kinda fair bcos MR14 weapons doesn't need higher stats to perform while the poor  low MR weapons can be good 

keep changing rivens 4 times a year will tell everyone to do not use riven or invest on it bcos it not worth and everyone will focus to main MR 14 weapons and thats the major problem riven came to life to fix it in first place ..to let ppl use other weapons but how they do that when you keep nerf everything the love and use ... if tomorrow every one start to main and use Kraken pistol then in next summer kraken riven will be nerfed too .. so again what's the point to invest on system like that 

 

[Azrael_V]

There can never be balance in this game. Not in power or popularity. Balance as the OP rightly states is just a trope. A theoretical ideal. You can't have balance when DE themselves create bad weapons, good weapons and great weapons. Rivens are just a crazy attempt to bridge that gap between weapons without ever actually having to revisit the stats of each individual weapon. 

Popularity is even more complicated because its more than just Power. I personally love the Vectis/Vectis Prime even though I have the Rubico Prime. Both have decent rivens( well had anyway ) but I prefer Vectis because of it's feel and just everything about it. Whichever weapon I use is up to me and DE shouldn't feel its on them to push me to use something else. Especially when some of the alternatives aren't up to standard. 

DE has to face the facts that one purple mod card with a few random stats can't fix the system. They should review the weapons individually and if not just accept that they created the tier system among weapons. Not all weapons are created equally or meant to be as good as others. Just cease and desist from making the good weapons bad in the name of Balance. 

[Fishyflakes]

TBH I'm all for annoying the people who use, own, and trade meta-rivens.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

15 minutes ago, Fishyflakes said:

TBH I'm all for annoying the people who use, own, and trade meta-rivens.

Down with shady and greedy riven traders by me. I price all my rivens as a starting point for any buyer, even if he wants to counter-offer, and I ignore anyone pm'ing me with "OFFER" when I WTB anything. Even when I clearly state "pmo" for the stuff I WTB. But no, people like a lot to see if the other person will overpay, only to turn it down and ignore if it's not their desired price. Not engaging in that stuff, let them feel the silence.

God how I wish these "OFFER" people could be reported. Not everyone, but the majority, I mean.

Edited April 3, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[ExcaliburUmbra]

2 hours ago, Azrael_V said:

Popularity is even more complicated because its more than just Power. I personally love the Vectis/Vectis Prime even though I have the Rubico Prime. Both have decent rivens( well had anyway ) but I prefer Vectis because of it's feel and just everything about it. Whichever weapon I use is up to me and DE shouldn't feel its on them to push me to use something else. Especially when some of the alternatives aren't up to standard. 

DE has to face the facts that one purple mod card with a few random stats can't fix the system. They should review the weapons individually and if not just accept that they created the tier system among weapons. Not all weapons are created equally or meant to be as good as others. Just cease and desist from making the good weapons bad in the name of Balance. 

I can’t understand why people make these ridiculous claims. I have a Pyrana Prime with 4 Forma stuffed in it. The recent update literally did nothing to affect its power. Its stats were not nerfed or changed, it is still easily capable of killing enemies in Sorties and Arbitrations. I do not own a Riven for it.

Lato Vandal is my most used secondary gun. I love the way it looks, sounds, and shoots. I invested quite a bit of Kuva into a decent roll, only to have my Riven’s stats nerfed in yesterday’s update. Did this suddenly drive me away from using it? No, of course not! It’s a weapon I genuinely enjoy using and would keep using even if Rivens did not exist. 

People are acting like these top tier weapons are suddenly useless without Riven mods. Rivens are entirely optional for completing every piece of rewarding content in the game at this moment. They are a luxury, meant to bring up weaker underdogs rather then buff the toppiest of top tier meta cannons.

That being said I agree that Rivens should not be a factor in weapon balance. Especially due to their rng-stacked nature, difficulty of obtaining, and fluctuating stats. Ideally in my mind releasing augments for lesser used weapons that address holes in their design would be a decent solution if DE is not willing to buff the stats directly.

Edited April 3, 2019 by OmegaZero