Why is Natural Talent even a thing?

[Xaxma]

It's actually a really pointless concept for a mod; the epitome of "bandaid mods" which exist to accommodate for thoughtless design. 

In theory, it would be a good mod if cast times for certain abilities would directly translate into big gains or huge damage, thereby directly translating into damage or gain boosts effectively, but many abilities don't function around this concept. Many frames seem to suffer from long cast times for what is arguably arbitrary reasons, whose abilities don't seem to offer any of this concept's promises.

I would suggest a removal of the mod and then going back and adjusting some of the problem abilities. 

[peterc3]

Why remove the mod, though?

[swiftasacoursing]

Well cast time is a stat just like power strength, range, duration, and efficiency. Removing a mod and altering the base stat would kind of ruin the point of having any mods at all. Why put on power strength when they could just up the effectiveness at base? Why put on efficiency when they would just reduce the cost? Cast time is just like these stats with the exception of not seeing it listed numerically.

[NezuHimeSama]

actually, a lot of frames can heavily benefit from it in terms of dealing damage. Any of the flat one-cast-one-hit spammable damage dealers, for example. There's also utility powers that are good to get out in a pinch and benefit from the casting speed.

It can also be a negative stat, much like duration, if you don't want it.

It's not a "throw it on every frame ever because you're worthless without it" kind of mod, but we have too many of those to begin with. Like, seriously, that's a legitimate problem that has been recognized and acknowledged by DE multiple times(and still not addressed in any significant way)

Edited April 6, 2019 by NezuHimeSama

[TARINunit9]

31 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

In theory, it would be a good mod if cast times for certain abilities would directly translate into big gains or huge damage, thereby directly translating into damage or gain boosts effectively, but many abilities don't function around this concept. Many frames seem to suffer from long cast times for what is arguably arbitrary reasons, whose abilities don't seem to offer any of this concept's promises.

Some powers are arbitrary, yes. But many are not arbitrary. Nekros's Shadows, for example, have about a 1 to 2 second delay between spawning and drawing aggro, and combined with the long cast time means it's not a sudden panic ability; trying to spawn shadows at the wrong moment can and has gotten us killed

And sometimes they do take a pass at cast times that shouldn't be that long. I remember when they tried to rework Mag, they made her Polarize slightly faster to cast and made it so you can cast it while walking

[Kontrollo]

Just stop. Or what's your next thread? "Why are Reload Speed mods even a thing?"

[BansheePrime]

5 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Just stop. Or what's your next thread? "Why are Reload Speed mods even a thing?"

Why are mods even a thing? Just buff all stats.

[Xaxma]

45 minutes ago, swiftasacoursing said:

Well cast time is a stat just like power strength, range, duration, and efficiency. Removing a mod and altering the base stat would kind of ruin the point of having any mods at all. Why put on power strength when they could just up the effectiveness at base? Why put on efficiency when they would just reduce the cost? Cast time is just like these stats with the exception of not seeing it listed numerically.

Okay but that has nothing to do with what I said. 

Power strength serves to amplify the intensity of certain abilities, as does duration and range, and efficiency allows for better power economy. 

Where does cast time amplify this? Abilities don't follow the concept of "long cast time = strong ability", as would be applied in literally any other game. 

Some abilities are just longer than others because "reasons" or because the devs made some cool animation they want us to watch fully. It's sporadic and randomly decided some abilities are extremely long.

This is why it's a bandaid. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Xaxma

[peterc3]

25 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

This is why it's a bandaid. 

By your reasoning, all mods are bandaids.

[Xaxma]

6 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

By your reasoning, all mods are bandaids.

Then why do people complain exclusively about Natural Talent? No other warframe mod gets as much flak for being "mandatory" as Natural Talent. 

[smokednin]

1 hour ago, Xaxma said:

Then why do people complain exclusively about Natural Talent? No other warframe mod gets as much flak for being "mandatory" as Natural Talent. 

I understand where you're coming from, but I do have to respectfully disagree there. 

I only really ever used Natural Talent on Nekros, before the desecrate rework. Nowadays I get nearly zero use out of it, and I have difficulty even considering it on most frames, but I actually like the concept! I see it as simply a speed-up for when you want to be doing things as quickly as possible, similar to the other speed and parkour/agility related mods.

I'm a liiittle curious as to which frame(s) you consider it mandatory (or near-mandatory) for, even if just to try them out with it to see how much better it might make them. 

[Tiltskillet]

I don't use it on anybody except Savage Spam Banshee, although I'm awfully tempted in a lot of cases.  (I'd use it on Nekros if I played him.)  Which kind of seems close to the ideal balance for a mod to me:  tempting, useful--really useful in a few instances--but definitely not mandatory.

I'd probably use it a bit more if it had a larger effect on more animations.   Maybe an increase in the percentage would do the trick, but  there are several where it feels to me like it only affects the middle and not the wind up or the pause before I can activate another ability.

1 hour ago, Xaxma said:

Then why do people complain exclusively about Natural Talent? No other warframe mod gets as much flak for being "mandatory" as Natural Talent. 

I'm sure I could find complaints about it.  I mean, we're gamers--we'll complain about anything and everything.  But I can't say "Natural Talent is Mandatory" threads  stick out to me as a hot topic.

 

2 hours ago, BansheePrime said:

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Just stop. Or what's your next thread? "Why are Reload Speed mods even a thing?"

Why are mods even a thing? Just buff all stats. 

My turn!  😛

Why are damage rolls even a thing?  We should just 1hk everything with whatever we want.

[NezuHimeSama]

2 hours ago, Xaxma said:

Okay but that has nothing to do with what I said. 

Power strength serves to amplify the intensity of certain abilities, as does duration and range, and efficiency allows for better power economy. 

Where does cast time amplify this? Abilities don't follow the concept of "long cast time = strong ability", as would be applied in literally any other game. 

Some abilities are just longer than others because "reasons" or because the devs made some cool animation they want us to watch fully. It's sporadic and randomly decided some abilities are extremely long.

This is why it's a bandaid. 

So then why complain about Natural Talent, which is unrelated to some abilities having inappropriate casting times?(examples would help to make your case for that)

As for what it amplifies, it amplifies the speed at which you can cast that ability. Some abilities have a long windup or a long cooldown or both, or act over a long period with ticks that are timed to the casting animation speed. Natural talent is for speeding up the casting animation, so that you can reduce wind up, cool down, or spammability of abilities.

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't use it on anybody except Savage Spam Banshee, although I'm awfully tempted in a lot of cases.  (I'd use it on Nekros if I played him.)  Which kind of seems close to the ideal balance for a mod to me:  tempting, useful--really useful in a few instances--but definitely not mandatory.

I'd probably use it a bit more if it had a larger effect on more animations.   Maybe an increase in the percentage would do the trick, but  there are several where it feels to me like it only affects the middle and not the wind up or the pause before I can activate another ability.

I'm sure I could find complaints about it.  I mean, we're gamers--we'll complain about anything and everything.  But I can't say "Natural Talent is Mandatory" threads  stick out to me as a hot topic.

 

My turn!  😛

Why are damage rolls even a thing?  We should just 1hk everything with whatever we want.

iirc, it used to be +100%, but it got nerfed because it was OP AF on a lot of abilities.

Just imagine, +100% DPS on RJ or Miasma for only +100% energy cost? Compared to the ~+70% for +~200% energy cost you'd often get from Blind Rage, as well as the added mobility due to the shorter casting time, it was obviously overpowered. I think it still would be on frames like Mag, Frost, or Oberon.

Edited April 6, 2019 by NezuHimeSama

[LuckyCharm]

I agree that some abilitys really need their cast time looked at, but natural talent isnt a bandaid mod in other cases which makes it good to have in game. For example Without more cast speed loki can be seen in the split second before invis recasts for example, with natural talent they dont see him for long enough to register hes there. Theres plenty of other cases where its niche but important to have for certain builds

[Xaxma]

I'm not saying any of this is Natural Talent's fault, guys, Jesus Christ lol.

I'm just saying Natural Talent REALLY shouldn't have to exist if the cast time for frames were more reasonable and homogenized. Maybe it really doesn't need to be removed, but I'm frustrated that it exists to solely remedy what I see as blunders and design mistakes on part of DE. It's not about the function, people, it's the intent behind its purpose.

I can't claim that I'm some inside person nor a mind reader, but judging from how other games tend to handle cast times (Imagine how a mage from an MMO would have giant, powerful attacks, but at the cost of super long casts, etc, etc. I'm sure there are tons of examples everywhere.) ... in contrast to the seemingly random, arbitrary decisions for certain abilities whose benefit or power do not justify such a price, then I am sworn to believe it is through-and-through a bandaid.

Can you really say getting Titania's buffs with her 2 really mandate the hurtful cast times? Is Limbo's 4 really that powerful to require to watch him dance for a good three seconds?

Meanwhile, you have a frame like Equinox whose day-form 4 does a quick PPPFFT with her arms and in a grand total of 0.1 seconds, you blast everything around you in a 50 mile radius for 25648125 million damage?

To answer your quote ...

1 hour ago, smokednin said:

I understand where you're coming from, but I do have to respectfully disagree there. 

I only really ever used Natural Talent on Nekros, before the desecrate rework. Nowadays I get nearly zero use out of it, and I have difficulty even considering it on most frames, but I actually like the concept! I see it as simply a speed-up for when you want to be doing things as quickly as possible, similar to the other speed and parkour/agility related mods.

I'm a liiittle curious as to which frame(s) you consider it mandatory (or near-mandatory) for, even if just to try them out with it to see how much better it might make them. 

Titania, Nekros, Limbo, Baruuk, and Ember (But she can provide her own cast time with the Accelerant augment alternatively).
These are the most obvious examples.

The only way Natural Talent actually translates to heightened power over purely sidestepping an unnecessary casting hazard would be charge-up skills like Ember and Vauban's 1 ...
 ... Which is not a really good example of an argument to be made in its defense considering how terrible these two abilities and frames are in the first place!

It also doesn't help it that it's still not an exilus mod despite Speed Drift ...

Edited April 6, 2019 by Xaxma

[Leyers_of_facade]

Mods like natural talent exists to allow variety, some people like using it, other people consider it a waste of slots.

If we were to remove mods that the majority of players don't use, we can easily remove over half the mods in this game.

[smokednin]

2 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

Titania, Nekros, Limbo, Baruuk, and Ember (But she can provide her own cast time with the Accelerant augment alternatively).
These are the most obvious examples.

The only way Natural Talent actually translates to heightened power over purely sidestepping an unnecessary casting hazard would be charge-up skills like Ember and Vauban's 1 ...
 ... Which is not a really good example of an argument to be made in its defense considering how terrible these two abilities and frames are in the first place!

It also doesn't help it that it's still not an exilus mod despite Speed Drift ...

Ah okay, I forgot about Limbo and his slowness, agreed there. And yeah, I don't think the charge times for Ember's and Vauban's abilities should be nearly as long as they are, it's kind of insane honestly. And I actually do think it should be an exilus mod for sure.

What I'd ultimately hope for is some of the clunkier and slower abilities getting a bit of a touch up so that they're smoother to use -  not just regarding speed, but mobility as well (I'd personally love if more abilities were upper-body animations instead of full-body). I think there's still room in the game for NT even in this scenario, but hopefully it wouldn't feel like a band-aid anymore!

With the recent changes to using abilities in the air, I don't think it's out of the question either~

[NezuHimeSama]

It sounds like you want warframe power cast times to all be basically instant?

That sounds like a bad idea imo.

 

In the case of Limbo, his 4 is a CC ability, so being able to pull it out instantly means he basically has an instant-out to everything with a larger range than any other CC afaik, which penetrates walls, ect ect. Though, he has an instant-out via dash now anyway.

Usually, if something has a long cast time, it's to make it so you can't instant-out/pure reaction things, or because they don't want it to be spammable.

Edited April 7, 2019 by NezuHimeSama

[TheGreenFellow]

It's just one of many mods that, thanks to limited mod slots and power-increase mods, has no real place to fit.

I agree that it's very strange to add in a mod with such a limited utiltiy compared to more direct damage-enhancers when you'd think normally they'd simply balance ability cast time without such mods in mind.

It's especially strange when you consider how many Warframes have been given abilities that are so quick that you wouldn't even think to consider using this mod on those Warframes.

There's a lot in the current modding situation that needs addressing - a grounds-up revamp, in my eyes, would be well deserved at this point. This mod is merely one of those things.

Edited April 7, 2019 by TheGreenFellow

[Xaxma]

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It sounds like you want warframe power cast times to all be basically instant?

That's not what I want at all?

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

That sounds like a bad idea imo.

Of course it is, that's why I didn't say I wanted that lol.

I want Natural Talent to not have touchy, finicky applications on a randomized, arbitrary basis while abandoning the concept of having cast times remain as the supposed "price" for substantial abilities despite many abilities not following this design concept due to aforementioned reasons.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Xaxma

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

When in the name of all that's holy is someone complaining about Natural Talent?  It was released in update 12 in 2014.  It was developed, like a lot of things, for a different time in the game's lifecycle.  It's still useful for casters like Banshee, Hydroid, and others.  To put this in perspective, here's what was released in update 12.

Ties That Bind’ – Darvo’s Alert return! For a Limited Time Only, play it before it’s gone!
- Level Expansion – Hunt for the Grineer in the overgrown forests of Earth!
- New Game Mode – “Interception” Territory Control Mode! This Mission type is making its debut on Earth, check it out where Mobile Defense missions used to be!
- New Clan Dojo room available - Build Warframes in the Tenno Research Lab.
- New Clan Dojo Garden room + 8 new decorations!
- New Warframe – Zephyr, the aeronautical Warframe (+ alternate helmet!)
- New Weapon – “Phage” Infested Primary. Get it in the Market or Clan Research Today!
- New Weapon – “Jat Kittag” Grineer Melee Get it in the Market or Clan Research Today!
- New Weapon – “Akstiletto” Tenno Secondary Get it in the Market or Clan Research Today!
- New Weapon – “Dual Cestras” – Dual wield your Cestras! Get it in the Market or Clan Research Today!
- 4x new Warframe "Immortal" skins (Volt, Vauban, Saryn, Nova)
- “Oryx” Oberon Alternate Helmet
- HUD 2.0 – all new look HUD with expanded informational output.
- Added 3D character portraits for transmissions! Get ready to see your allies and foes come to life!
- Improved Mod management – including duplicate mod stacking and auto-install.
- Enemy Leaders AI – specialized enemy types that spawn with improved stats and ally support abilities.
- Added support for Steam Big Picture.
- Added Daybreak colour picker to the Market.
- Added avatar packs for Oberon, Mag Prime, and Frost Prime.
- Completely reworked the sounds of all Infested Ancients - this is also the first time players will hear the winning sounds as voted on in the Design Council.
- Polarity Management is here! You can now swap the order of Polarities on your Forma’d gear!
- Reintroduced “Natural Talent” Mod, play the new Interception missions to find it today!
- Reintroduced “Dead Eye” Aura to the Alert Pool!
- “Training” Section now live in the Codex, a helpful area for all things Warframe!
 

Now if there's a leftover mod that needs to be questioned, it's Physique.  Pointless thread is pointless.

[Cephalycion]

Excalibur. Range. Slash Dash. UNLIMITED POWERRRR!

[Benour]

Baro should bring Primed Natural Talent actually that would be dope!

This mod is awesome on few frames. 

[Marvelous_A]

Making it compatible with exilus slot is the only change it needs

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Xaxma said:

It's actually a really pointless concept for a mod; the epitome of "bandaid mods" which exist to accommodate for thoughtless design. 

In theory, it would be a good mod if cast times for certain abilities would directly translate into big gains or huge damage, thereby directly translating into damage or gain boosts effectively, but many abilities don't function around this concept. Many frames seem to suffer from long cast times for what is arguably arbitrary reasons, whose abilities don't seem to offer any of this concept's promises.

I would suggest a removal of the mod and then going back and adjusting some of the problem abilities. 

You are mixing up the words bandaid and key.

Bandaid would imply something is broken and needs it to get on par or get closer to par.

Key implies something that is an enabler to makes something even stronger. Most frames that make use of NT can live well without it, it just happens to be a very strong mod for those frames aswell, so just as viable and in some cases much better than slotting an extra strength or duration mod. Several frames dont need it or make good use of it to begin with, so simply removing it and adjusting cast speeds doesnt cut it, it would simply make those benefitting massivley from it just that much better when they dont need it to be strong to begin with.