Ivara's prowl, is mobility limitation necessary?

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

Her invisibility is basically FOREVER compared to other frames. It’s defensive as opposed to Ash’s Offensive stealth. I can accept the trade off, especially when doing conservation. 

[KynaTiona]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Objection. (On this one point, not on anything else)

On the only released data that we've ever received from DE (yearly, on the anniversary, giving data across all platforms, all countries) Ivara's usage only goes up as the MR of levels rise and eventually out-strips all but Loki out of the 'frames that can go invisible'. 

I put this down to the simple function of utility as a whole, not to the difference in the actual invisibility.

Her actual position is in the top half of our 40 frames available, falling in at a weird 17th place, with both Ash and Octavia down in the 20's somewhere.

Basically what I'm saying is that, according to the facts that DE release yearly, Ivara gets quite a lot of usage. Despite the limitations.

Definitely interesting. The rising use over higher MR is easy to explain by more people actually having her (such a pain to farm >_<), but her having been used more than Ash and Octavia is strange. Could you link me to these statistics you've mentioned? I found a post claiming to have the statistics for Aug 8 - 15, but I can't find the data prior to the March 7 hotfix that fixed the bug allowing bullet jumps during Prowl. She seems to have dropped from 17th to 20th during that time, well below Loki at 5th and Ash at 15th, though I'd believe those numbers a bit more if I could compare two sets of data guaranteed to be from the same source.

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

2 hours ago, Test-995 said:

That's the point, when walking speed reduction doesn't change rolling speed, why keep it?

It makes a little annoyance but no difference in gameplay/frame power, this buff is just a QoL change.

It's because rolling is considered a dodge rather than speed movement. I can't agree with it being an annoyance, maybe that's because I've been so used to it by playin her as a main since she was released. It's meant to be slow. It's literally in the name "prowl" in order to move stealthily to stalk prey. That doesnt happen with quick movement.

[KynaTiona]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

Her invisibility is basically FOREVER compared to other frames. It’s defensive as opposed to Ash’s Offensive stealth. I can accept the trade off, especially when doing conservation. 

As stated, Prowl loses out in the long-term sustainability department. It does have better consistency, which is very different feature, although that consistency is really only important because Ivara is too slow to hide the mundane way. Loki and Ash's stealth abilities aren't as consistent, but because they can still move, it's easy enough for them to slide behind cover or glide onto a rafter that it doesn't pose much of a problem.

 

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Smooth81Criminal said:

It's meant to be slow. It's literally in the name "prowl" in order to move stealthily to stalk prey. That doesnt happen with quick movement.

If you were to look up the word "prowl", you'll get variations of the word "to move about stealthily as if hunting prey". Speed is nowhere to be found. Ambush predators typically move slowly IRL, but only due to purely IRL restrictions. Loki could be said to be "prowling" while speeding across an empty tile to the next victim, regardless of movement speed.

[Test-995]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Smooth81Criminal said:

It's because rolling is considered a dodge rather than speed movement. I can't agree with it being an annoyance, maybe that's because I've been so used to it by playin her as a main since she was released. It's meant to be slow. It's literally in the name "prowl" in order to move stealthily to stalk prey. That doesnt happen with quick movement.

If you don't think it as annoyance to each his own i guess.

You can't even WALK while prowl because it is meant to be slow and stealthy, but you can perform rolling that is meant to be dodge without breaking stealth, i suppose dodge is a combat activity so this is even more strange.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, KynaTiona said:

though I'd believe those numbers a bit more if I could compare two sets of data guaranteed to be from the same source.

As I pointed out, the only official data is what is released by DE at the anniversary, any data after that point in a year is sadly questionable.

If you want more of the official data we all have to wait until they roll out the Dex at the start of next year.

That, of course, may be biased again due to the release of her Prime in either the Christmas or the February-March windows.

The key point to consider, however, is that even at 20th, she may not be the most used Stealth frame, but she’s definitely used more than 20 other frames, and that is not a bad spot to be in.

Again, my objection was purely on the comment of ‘finally see some usage’, it wasn’t on the larger thread so I’ll take my leave.

[Biddion]

Two tweaks that may help:

1) Whenever prowl is broken, it stays active and will reapply shortly. The augment can cut this time by 1/2.

2) With dashwire is used, it will automatically put her it. An additional tweak can be to have her advance so many meters, perhaps 10m. If a player does not want to be automatically put on the wire, then crouching can be used, the the dashwire is shot but Ivara stays in place.

I can foresee dashwire being a faster mode this way.

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2019-06-25 at 8:18 AM, Test-995 said:

Okay so bullet jumping could be replaced with dashwire and wall jump, but movement speed reduction is just annoying, also i don't think it's that different from other invis abilities, toggle nature of skill is more of a restriction than strength for most of times.

it's necessary.

without this she is just invisible forever without every having any drawback.  no no no.

[Xepthrichros]

On 2019-06-25 at 9:24 PM, GnarlsDarkley said:

Try this "tactic"

Grossly incandescent 

[Somi_xD]

I love to use my Ivara with Twin Basolk + Rift Strike + Dispatch Overdrive.
Works great and Twin Basolk is pretty reliable, especially with a riven (they basically cost nothing)

I think they need to rework invisibility in general on all frames.
Octavia outshines all stealth frames, while others have to many restrictions.
They should give bulletjump back but reduce the speed of it - i am fine with the speed restriction, there are ways to come around.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Somi_xD

[Test-995]

8 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

it's necessary.

without this she is just invisible forever without every having any drawback.  no no no.

Indeed, inability to shoot noisy guns or do sprint or bullet jump, and anti-synergy with energizing dash doesn't counts as drawback.

Well i think you get it as allow me to do everything, sorry for that, i specifically meant walking speed.

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, Test-995 said:

Indeed, inability to shoot noisy guns or do sprint or bullet jump, and anti-synergy with energizing dash doesn't counts as drawback.

Well i think you get it as allow me to do everything, sorry for that, i specifically meant walking speed.

Uh... dood... you can shoot noisey guns, it just breaks your stealth, unless you mod for it, at which point it doesn't break your stealth... and of course you can't use energizing dash, because then you can literally be invisible forever without trying.

are you seriously suggesting that not being able to fire a gatling gun while in stealth is a drawback?  especially when melee is the most powerful thing in the game?
are you seriously griping that you can't have invisibility perpetually forever, and instead need to shoot a noise arrow and then energy dash which takes all of .2 seconds???  and even then, you can stay invisIble for about 4 minutes (assuming you don't pilfer any energy or kill anyone) when most missions are three minutes?

yes, mobility needs a hit.  ivara is already one of the most powerful frames in the game and it's because of her stealth ability, and that's with the mobility taken into account.

when people do 7+ hours of solo endurance, do you know what frames they are using?  that's right, ivara, and now you want to take away the only meaningful drawback she has in a very poor attempt to balance her against other frames?  you know what i think might make you happy though.  god mode.  you should just ask for god mode, and also 100% drop rate for everything in the game... actually, why even play  the game when it could be a movie that plays itself for you?

you want one of the most powerful meta frames to have a buff that removes her only meaningful drawback...please share those drugs with the rest of the class.


 

[Test-995]

4 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Uh... dood... you can shoot noisey guns, it just breaks your stealth, unless you mod for it, at which point it doesn't break your stealth... and of course you can't use energizing dash, because then you can literally be invisible forever without trying.

are you seriously suggesting that not being able to fire a gatling gun while in stealth is a drawback?  especially when melee is the most powerful thing in the game?
are you seriously griping that you can't have invisibility perpetually forever, and instead need to shoot a noise arrow and then energy dash which takes all of .2 seconds???  and even then, you can stay invisIble for about 4 minutes (assuming you don't pilfer any energy or kill anyone) when most missions are three minutes?

yes, mobility needs a hit.  ivara is already one of the most powerful frames in the game and it's because of her stealth ability, and that's with the mobility taken into account.

when people do 7+ hours of solo endurance, do you know what frames they are using?  that's right, ivara, and now you want to take away the only meaningful drawback she has in a very poor attempt to balance her against other frames?  you know what i think might make you happy though.  god mode.  you should just ask for god mode, and also 100% drop rate for everything in the game... actually, why even play  the game when it could be a movie that plays itself for you?

you want one of the most powerful meta frames to have a buff that removes her only meaningful drawback...please share those drugs with the rest of the class.

Yes it is, when compared to other invis ability.

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, Test-995 said:

Yes it is, when compared to other invis ability.

Uh... AGAIN...

WTF ARE YOU SMOKIN?

other  invis  frames: octavia, ash,  loki

octavia has a movement restriction and button combination input, also this  helps the whole team and has short duration, not just her is invis, so it's not balanced the same way since it's a team  buff.
ash has crap for invisibility so much so that it's basically just  an escape tool, not actual invisibility...  technically you could  build  ash to be almost  as good   as  base loki invisibility, but you'd  also  be sacrificing all the rest  of  his  kit, which is the  useful parts, so doing  that is dumb.
loki  has  unrestricted movement  invisibility but  at a high energy cost and  significantly lower duration.  generally  speaking, you don't spend  the  whole mission invisible, you use it for set ups and take downs.  

ivara on the  other hand,  is just always  invisible  unless  you  make  her  not  invisible, assuming you aren't operating with noob tier  mods, and if you   are,  you probably  shouldn't be playing ivara because you  bought her rather than  earned her.  and if you earned her, then  you don't  need to be invisible anyway...

if you bought ivara ahead of  earning her, then you have nobody to blame but yourself for not  knowing how to play her effectively, or how to mod her effectively, or even having the mods you would need to make her effective.

lets  also not forget that ivara just ignores lasers with her agument, meaning  that all  spy missions are a literal joke to her, and this is not true for any  of the other invis  frames.

you keep saying things... but the more you say, the more i think you have no clue what you're talking about.  you're literally asking for buffs on her only minor drawback, for what is already an S tier  frame.

In short, if you can't keep up with the group because they  are running, you don't need to be invisible, and you probably don't need to be playing ivara.  Put the right tool into the job, or suffer, choice is yours.  Yes she is viable for all content, yes, she's op, and no she does not need a buff in this or any regard.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[(XBOX)Skylar McCloud]

On 2019-06-25 at 8:18 AM, Test-995 said:

Okay so bullet jumping could be replaced with dashwire and wall jump, but movement speed reduction is just annoying, also i don't think it's that different from other invis abilities, toggle nature of skill is more of a restriction than strength for most of times.

Everything in this game has to have a negative or Boon for the positives. A God Roll Riven needs a negative to boost the positive. Same as the Warframes. The slow movement yeah annoying. To get around it. Infiltate #1 on Ivara.

Dispatch overdrine on a covert lethality dagger. Zenurick has a node that helps with channeling efficiency plus 1 channeling effecoency mod on the dagger helps it cap out the 80% limit. Movement speed increased for 17 seconds per Channel kill and her walking speed is almost running. Her passive grants an increased energy orb drop when in prowl. Moving slowly is a little annoying but there's ways around it.

Edited August 19, 2019 by (XB1)Skylar McCloud
Forgot an important point

[(XBOX)Skylar McCloud]

1 hour ago, Test-995 said:

Yes it is, when compared to other invis ability.

At the sametime the only invisibility frame as powerful as Ivara is Octavia. Her draw back is limited invisibility. 

Just like rivens for it to be powerful it has to have a negative to boosts it's positives. With Ivara it's movement speed and noisy weapons. With the introduction of the Baza and the Fulmin. You have a silent shotgun and sub machine gun innately. Suppress mods work great for her weapins as well.

For movement speed. Infiltrate on Ivara. A covert lethality dagger dispatch overdrive and 1 channeling efficiency mod if you don't have zenurick unlocked with the node that grants channeling eggiciency theres a couple other CE mods to choose from. Dispatch Overdrive grants increades movement speed for 17 seconds per channeled kill. Ivara has an increases energy orb drop chance when pick pocketing in prowl mode. Im getting into end game runs on Mot. Highest so far 1:45. I have 2 jobs so cant. Do 8 hr bids but, there's ways around most anything.

[LunaSelenis]

Instead of removing the mobility restriction, i'd prefer if it would not break invisibility immediately, so being able to sprint for less then 1 second would be nice. I'd also like for high jumps to not break invisibility aswell as having the energy drain when taking damage only apply if its damage to health.

[uAir]

Hopefully with her prime release DE will revisit her skills and change a few things. Movement during prowl being one of them.

1 is fine, maybe a little more range and duration would be nice. Also the bugginess of her noise arrow should be checked.
2 should just be a toggle. While active, ALL arrows you fire pierce targets up to X amount of times before expiring. Else, it gives 100% multishot to other weapons.
3 movement speed should just be normal.
4 should have its multishot just be auto aim arrows instead. The targeting reticule starts as a small point and grows as you hold it down. Arrows are autoaim at any targets within the reticule. It should have a stance mod that changes it from this fire mode back to the normal fire mode that we're all used to so no one loses out on their preferred bow style.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎2019‎-‎08‎-‎20 at 3:55 AM, uAir said:

Also the bugginess of her noise arrow should be checked.

It works just fine for me as long as you don't shoot it into puddles of water.  

On ‎2019‎-‎08‎-‎20 at 3:55 AM, uAir said:

While active, ALL arrows you fire pierce targets up to X amount of times before expiring.

Uhhh, arrows already have unlimited punchthru when used with navigator.  

On ‎2019‎-‎08‎-‎20 at 3:55 AM, uAir said:

should have its multishot just be auto aim arrows instead. The targeting reticule starts as a small point and grows as you hold it down. Arrows are autoaim at any targets within the reticule. It should have a stance mod that changes it from this fire mode back to the normal fire mode that we're all used to so no one loses out on their preferred bow style.

Hell Naw!! Why, because it would lead to Ivara getting nerfed into the ground.  So hell no to that one.

[sinnae]

Ivara is incredibly powerful and can stay invisible indefinitely, pretty much for free. I don't mind there being limitations. Sure, it feels arbitrary that rolling *specifically* is allowed while other movements are not, but overall it makes sense that she cannot freely sprint everywhere with this superior invisibility. Plus, "Prowl" has an implication of methodical, stealthy movement, which necessitates a more measured movespeed.

[TeaHawk]

They see me rollin they hatin...
In fact I agree. That's annoying and it does not change anything in terms of pace and efficiency. It just forces you to constantly roll... That's stoooopid.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Uhhh, arrows already have unlimited punchthru when used with navigator.

Arrows have a set amount of Punch Through, and only have it when fully charged, what this means is that if any enemies are actually within range of each other they count as a single 'object' in terms of Punch Through, and the ability will end because the enemies make up an object that is greater than the distance your Punch Through stat can account for.

Giving them more makes this less likely to happen, but it is still not guaranteed.

But that's not what the other player was talking about at all. Because they just want to over-power Ivara by a metric truck-ton.

The point the other player was making was to change it from being 'steer the projectile' ability that relies on player judgement to pick targets, scale up their damage by hitting successive targets and balancing the energy drain increase against the damage they're dealing, into being just an aura that means every shot you fire comes back and hits the enemy again multiple times.

Which is an incredibly un-interactive ability, a simple boost in damage by giving her a better version of Mag's Magnetise as long as she's using a bow. Combine this with Artemis Bow and the change they want to make to Artemis Bow already, and you have a nuke ability. So very interesting.

[000l000]

Le 25/06/2019 à 15:57, Chewarette a dit :

Toggle is a huge benefit as there is no downtime at all. So yes, I'd rather we keep the movement restrictions, because if they were to disappear, that'd mean Prowl would be changed to a set duration. This would effectively transform Ivara into Female Loki.

Who cares about Loki, Ash is also able to make himself invisible - Octavia, Wukong or even Wisp also have invisibility powers. Only Ivara has to rely upon ridiculous and slow movements, perhaps it was fair or balanced at start but now she's only quite dated.

I don't mind less speed but no sprint nor bulletjump is just plain dumb now. Anyway Loki is way more viable energy wise, Ivara costs a lot since she's channeling both her prowl and her artemis bow. I don't even see why Ivara is the frame who got the movement penalty - did she really deserve such thing in the first place ?

Edited August 23, 2019 by 000l000

[Test-995]

Here is another proposal : allow me to stick invis arrow into myself.

I don't know if it is also too overpowered, tbh.

[Chewarette]

1 hour ago, 000l000 said:

Who cares about Loki, Ash is also able to make himself invisible - Octavia, Wukong or even Wisp also have invisibility powers. Only Ivara has to rely upon ridiculous and slow movements, perhaps it was fair or balanced at start but now she's only quite dated.

I don't mind less speed but no sprint nor bulletjump is just plain dumb now. Anyway Loki is way more viable energy wise, Ivara costs a lot since she's channeling both her prowl and her artemis bow. I don't even see why Ivara is the frame who got the movement penalty - did she really deserve such thing in the first place ?

What you would want to do is transform Ivara into a Lokivara. There is literally no point for DE to even think about doing that. That's as dumb as asking DE to change Ember to be able to place Fiery Spores on enemies that spread when you shoot on it to make her on par with Saryn.