What is sustainable content?

[JackHargreav]

I heard ppl say we need sustainable content but didn't really heard many ideas. So why not come up with some?

I'm genuenly interested what type of content some of you thinking about. 

[844448]

Sustainable content? What is that? E Prime exterminate strolling?

[Chicken-Biryani]

Nothing that people here are capable of discussing.

[DrakeRemorea]

Sustainable content is pretty much impossible because everyone will still complain their is no content

[Rawbeard]

open worlds certainly aren't, considering how fast they are being abandoned.

[Pizzarugi]

Take everything done right with Path of Exile's Atlas of Worlds, and implement it for the Tau System. 😛

[JackHargreav]

8 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

open worlds certainly aren't, considering how fast they are being abandoned.

Well I think that is a bit early to say. The new war seems to be poe realated. Tho more stuff to do would be nice.

Edited August 30, 2019 by JackHargreav

[Olphalarepth]

23 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

I heard ppl say we need sustainable content but didn't really heard many ideas. So why not come up with some?

I'm genuenly interested what type of content some of you thinking about. 

The current balance of the game makes the idea of "sustainable" content impossible I'm afraid. For the better or worse the only pull that players have in the game is unleashing the complaining blast when DE tries to get away with sub par ideas such as the echos of umbra. Not to be a downer but we have empyrean/railjack coming, after that it's new war and after that we're supposed to see duviri paradox. DE has already planned a long time development chart.

You could have an IQ of 500 and and come up with the brightest idea the world has ever seen and it wouldn't matter one tiny bit. Feedback is only a fancy word to give us the illusion that we have a saying. There, I said it.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Olphalarepth

[Kaotyke]

Its content that has a big level of replayability without needing to resort to RNG and rewards to keep people interessted.

PvE games struggle to make such things, while PvP games thrive because the human factor adds a lot of unpredicability, you are trying to be smarter than the other person, more skiled, have better team coordination...

In PvE, you have the dumb, unevolving AI. And this case is worse in horde games. Because in such, the players are given a lot of power to counter the great number of enemies. Having smarter enemies would resolve anything if they die just as fast as any other because they wouldnt have time to act on those improved mechanics.

Even if they did, they get repeatable, predicable. Which leads back to the struggle of replayability.

Are there some games that keep people invested even though its PvE only? Yes. The Soulsborne games are the first that comes to mind, but this is not this type of game.

[Redthirst]

8 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Are there some games that keep people invested even though its PvE only?

"Hardcore" PvE games often do that(though not for everyone), I'm talking about games like Left4Dead and Payday 2. Warframe is very far from being hardcore.

[kitcordell]

IMO the first step to sustainable content would be to make the game harder overall and maybe a better way to do PvP.

Our overpowered weapons and movement system just make the game to easy.

Edited August 30, 2019 by kitcordell

[Klokwerkaos]

45 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Take everything done right with Path of Exile's Atlas of Worlds, and implement it for the Tau System. 😛

this isn't a fair comparison.

as someone who plays PoE as well, firstly, they have a fresh economy every three months, which actually is so much content it causes burn out if you want to complete all content each cycle.  if you're talking about the generic league, that's not precisely sustainable.

that isn't to say DE shouldn't learn from them, from their not having such heavy handed and over zealous moderators, to them actually listening to what players want for content and making it into the game, at least to try it, to putting out content on a responsible schedule, to having enough variance in the content and player control of said content and challenge level to make it worth while to play, to having any challenge at all, to.... i could go on.

point in case, DE is really sucking lately and the puke laden graphics update is the most offensive thing i've seen from them in a while and the whole company seems to be on a backslide and the whole dev streams lately seem to be all about market hype and propaganda, and that's not a good look at all.  

The main problem is, DE actually needs players to call them out on this garbage nonsense they keep releasing, but they ignore all useful feedback that isn't glowing and slap any harsher criticisms with censorship, which is a great way for the decay to set in and for stupid things like an ugly graphics update that nobody wanted and asked for, taking up a massive portion of their development, while refusing to release anything players actually want and ask for...

to be clear, this isn't a DE is dying post, no, not all, this is a DE has severe issues that are causing it to slowly rot and bloat from the inside out until eventually the already dead carcass explodes when exposed to too much sunlight.

I strongly feel they should be ashamed and embarrassed by this latest graphics release, even though the update did have some nice things about it... but that's the story of DE,  a handful of good ideas mixed into a huge pile of disgusting mess that goes unaddressed while people white knight for them and moderators censor negative feedback.

Such is how empires die.  Would really like to see them turn it around, but with each passing year my confidence and good will drains more and more to the point where i think they are just going to keep milking new players for as long as they can until the image of good will they built up eventually implodes with player backlash.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[trst]

I assume what people are referring to is the type of content that can be replayed near-infinitely.

The problem with this type of content is that it most typically exists in games that are specifically designed to have it. Games that are either competitive in nature, skill based, heavily rely on random generation, or "party" games where the enjoyment comes from interactions with other players.

Warframe actually already hits some of these points but none of them are focused on enough or simply lack enough content to keep players engaged. For example a lot of players do (did?) stick around solely for the leaderboards especially for events that utilized them. But we went a painfully long time without event boards (IIRC the Disruption event was the first one in over a year) so a lot of those players may have moved on.

Can Warframe have such content in a more substantial form? Yes. Do players ever specify how they want such content implemented and in what form? VERY rarely. Would any such content appeal to the entire playerbase? Never.

[K4RN4]

Rivens are content that provides near infinte replayability, but lots of players dislike them, so they still cry for content......

[Klokwerkaos]

7 minutes ago, trst said:

I assume what people are referring to is the type of content that can be replayed near-infinitely.

The problem with this type of content is that it most typically exists in games that are specifically designed to have it. Games that are either competitive in nature, skill based, heavily rely on random generation, or "party" games where the enjoyment comes from interactions with other players.

Warframe actually already hits some of these points but none of them are focused on enough or simply lack enough content to keep players engaged. For example a lot of players do (did?) stick around solely for the leaderboards especially for events that utilized them. But we went a painfully long time without event boards (IIRC the Disruption event was the first one in over a year) so a lot of those players may have moved on.

Can Warframe have such content in a more substantial form? Yes. Do players ever specify how they want such content implemented and in what form? VERY rarely. Would any such content appeal to the entire playerbase? Never.

i  don't feel that it's a fair criticisms to level at the players who "very rarely" specify, i feel that's more an indictment of how DE doesn't listen and has an abysmal track record for releasing content.

most of us that can and have provided actual solutions eventually get tired of screaming at a brick wall for things to change and for any criticism that isn't a glowing review to be censored into oblivion by heavy handed moderators.

the fact that people grow weary of doing this over and over with nearly no results is a failure of DE, not the player base.

if you feel i'm off base here, go over to reddit... take a look at the feedback that actually has been implemented, and tell me how many of those things aren't simple fixes like ui and QoL, and how many are substantial changes to the core gameplay modes...

you'll find the answer is nil.  either that feedback never makes it to them because they are shielded by the moderators from any substantial criticism or revolutionary game play loop thoughts, or they completely ignore it in favor of updating our graphics to look like dog vomit.

sure, people defend de on this all the time, but that's because they don't have the years of experience shouting actual solutions at a brick wall yet.  nor do they have the experience of other games (such as PoE) THAT ACTUALLY LISTEN TO PLAYERS AND IMPLEMENT AND EXPERIMENT WITH NEW CONTENT ON A REGULAR UPDATE SCHEDULE.

instead players make excuses for their abuses in a sick sort of stockholme syndrome because of motivation by sunk cost fallacy.

[Chronometria]

Just now, K4RN4 said:

Rivens are content that provides near infinte replayability, but lots of players dislike them, so they still cry for content......

Calling Rivens content just shows how little there is to do. A decent challenge is all that is required, ie a polished raid mode, or some plain old massive battles that actually involve more than a handful of enemies at a time.

As it is, our warframes are able to handle huge numbers of enemies and we are going up against scattered groups who barely get a shot off. This "new war" had better be an actual war rather than "some guys on a spaceship with pistols".

[BDMblue]

Sustainable content is a human level or greater AGI dedicated to making warframe content. 

[JackHargreav]

4 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

you'll find the answer is nil.  either that feedback never makes it to them because they are shielded by the moderators from any substantial criticism or revolutionary game play loop thoughts, or they completely ignore it in favor of updating our graphics to look like dog vomit.

 

I don't really know what is your problem with the graphics. Yesterday they seemed completely fine.

Edited August 30, 2019 by JackHargreav

[Aldain]

Content that brings players back to the content even when the rewards are no longer a factor.

The exact content that would be considered as such varies from player to player, which while fine at a basic level, is more an issue of Warframe's content is that there isn't anything currently that many can share as content that makes them say "I could do this forever".

The content types are so spread out and have so many different options that you wind up with a fragmented playerbase which mainly focus on what each subset wants to do and not much else, a good example would be the Riven community which mainly spends time grinding Kuva for re-rolls, that is their sustainable content, but it is a narrow option that a larger part of the community doesn't take the same pleasure in.

The way to fix this would be to find something, anything, that can bring people from all walks together, even for short bursts, regardless of what their particular sustainable content is considered. Obviously there would be exceptions and you can't make content that appeals to literally everyone, but right now the current content design is mostly just a pile of niches with little in common with each other.

[Jarriaga]

Using other games as a baseline, "sustainable content" means gameplay modes or tasks that don't need frequent updates because they have a high replay value. They offer either intrinsic rewards by requiring a certain level of skill to be pulled off, or extrinsic rewards that continuously add to your character's growth so you don't hit a wall.

[DeathDweller]

2 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

I don't really know what is your problem with the graphics. Yesterday they seemed completely fine.

Yesterday as before the update?Even then some major things were still broken like low res textures and the antialiasing since i can't even remember, The Sacrifice?maybe even before that.

[JackHargreav]

Just now, DeathDweller said:

Yesterday as before the update?Even then some major things were still broken like low res textures and the antialiasing since i can't even remember, The Sacrifice?maybe even before that.

After the update. The game seemed to be completely fine on my end. A little bit brighter but nothing extraordinary.

[DeathDweller]

1 minute ago, JackHargreav said:

After the update. The game seemed to be completely fine on my end. A little bit brighter but nothing extraordinary.

Pure luck i guess on what things you checked.Bunch of armors got their textures and colors swapped, ships and frames missing energy effects and have a matte look, the gloss parts on everything went matte and metals dull.Pretty much the only thing they can do now is revert or we're in for a good one.

[JackHargreav]

4 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

Pure luck i guess on what things you checked.Bunch of armors got their textures and colors swapped, ships and frames missing energy effects and have a matte look, the gloss parts on everything went matte and metals dull.Pretty much the only thing they can do now is revert or we're in for a good one.

Hmm. Once my game stopped updating I will go and look around.

[trst]

3 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

i  don't feel that it's a fair criticisms to level at the players who "very rarely" specify, i feel that's more an indictment of how DE doesn't listen and has an abysmal track record for releasing content.

most of us that can and have provided actual solutions eventually get tired of screaming at a brick wall for things to change and for any criticism that isn't a glowing review to be censored into oblivion by heavy handed moderators.

the fact that people grow weary of doing this over and over with nearly no results is a failure of DE, not the player base.

if you feel i'm off base here, go over to reddit... take a look at the feedback that actually has been implemented, and tell me how many of those things aren't simple fixes like ui and QoL, and how many are substantial changes to the core gameplay modes...

you'll find the answer is nil.  either that feedback never makes it to them because they are shielded by the moderators from any substantial criticism or revolutionary game play loop thoughts, or they completely ignore it in favor of updating our graphics to look like dog vomit.

sure, people defend de on this all the time, but that's because they don't have the years of experience shouting actual solutions at a brick wall yet.  nor do they have the experience of other games (such as PoE) THAT ACTUALLY LISTEN TO PLAYERS AND IMPLEMENT AND EXPERIMENT WITH NEW CONTENT ON A REGULAR UPDATE SCHEDULE.

instead players make excuses for their abuses in a sick sort of stockholme syndrome because of motivation by sunk cost fallacy.

I won't deny that there has been a lot of feedback and suggestions but I wouldn't call even half of it good or valid. A lot of said posts don't consider the side effects of what their ideas could do to other areas of the game or DE's bottom line. Like people thinking the solution to Rivens is to remove the system in it's entirety or simultaneously asking to remove armor scaling or nulifiers and want the game to be more difficult.

But believe me, I know how much the community has asked, I've been fairly active around here since around u7-8. Back then I was advocating to hard-cap endless missions because I was expecting eventual problems from DE trying to appease the endurance crowd. But I know that ship has long since sailed and no amount of asking for it now would make it happen. A lot of suggestions have fallen on deaf ears but again I can't say all of it has or would have been good for the game.

And yet there actually more changes made to the game that are based on feedback then people seem to realize. For example a lot of people thought Nightwave came out of nowhere and that the alert system was perfectly fine and yet there had been years of complaints about the alert system and Nightwave actually addresses all of them. Or with the update we just got we received more Disruption modes because players enjoyed them yet we've not gotten more Salvage, Defection, or Archwing modes all of which players have made many complaints about.

Plus DE is running a business and has to run the game as such. Anything that could threaten their bottom line could threaten the longevity of the game itself. Like if DE took the suggestions to make the game more difficult they would risk pushing out the large casual section of the community.

I'm not trying to make excuses for them either, I'm just trying to be realistic in my expectations in what to expect from the game and company in the future. I've seen too many communities ruin their experiences with games because they can't see the bigger picture or put unrealistic expectations on themselves.