What is sustainable content?

[Loza03]

Good gameplay. Which we have, buried under all these nukes, and CC spams and infinite invisibility and immortality.

 

At the end of the day, what gets people to stick around will come down to either being really good in a few niches like story (or even one of the four pillars, like Narrative, Character, World or Lore. Shadow of the Colossus and the decade-long Secret Seeker group attests to that, being World), or, it can't deliver some of the best in such a degree, good old fashioned solid gameplay is what really keeps something going. See also: the NES games. They had no means to provide really good stories past what could be delivered better in a book. They had limited space to put secrets, limited musical fidelity and were short. Y'know how people complain that the Sacrifice is just 45 minutes of content? That's how long it takes to beat Megaman 1. That's all a lot of people had for weeks or months. Now I'm not pulling the 'old ways were better' card, because, no, the ability to provide content orders of magnitude larger is absolutely an improvement. I'm saying to learn from the old ways - pick up the techniques and lessons that let players engage with the games for many times their original length, and apply them to our modern, multi hour sagas. That's what Breath of the Wild did. Took the 1-2 hours of the first Legend of Zelda, figured out what let people explore it for many times that length, then made what many consider one of the best open-world games of all time from it. 

Simply put: solid gameplay keeps people around. And unless your game is specifically an idle game, being able to sit in the corner and T-bag to victory, or spam a few buttons and watch the fireworks is not solid gameplay. We have a great gameplay loop - the movement, the shooting, melee and many of the newer abilities - even a good portion of the enemies are reasonably engaging when approached this way. It's just that approaching in such a manner is definitively less effective than sitting back and soaking up damage as Lazy Tank Inaros or watching the numbers glisten in the sun whilst you spam '4' as Banshee.

IMO, that would take the form of taking our immense power and changing how we get there. Instead of getting there from a few buttons, add new mechanics to abilities to weaken them in the right scenarios or limit their availability in such a way that the player has to put in the effort to acquire it. For example - giving Blunts/Vector Shields the ability to draw the aggro of Mesa's peacemaker, and Melee enemies resistance to shooting gallery just like they can bypass her shatter shield, and we go from a frame who can be very effective as a glorified turret that can reposition almost instantly to a frame that needs to actually watch her back, with very clearly defined strengths and weaknesses. Or, alternatively, one change to Inaros would turn him into the definitive no-input tank to a much more interesting frame - make the health drain from his Scarab Swarm a passive drain, instead of on cast. Suddenly, he's not a frame who sets up immortality and that's it, he's a frame who needs to use his bevy of healing abilities (literally all his powers have some healing properties) to constantly keep on top, but when successfully done, is rewarded by his unconquerable health pool.

[Ikyr0]

1 hour ago, JackHargreav said:

I heard ppl say we need sustainable content but didn't really heard many ideas. So why not come up with some?

I'm genuenly interested what type of content some of you thinking about. 

Not sure what your intent behind this thread is. Have you tried searching the suggestions subforums, or the subreddit? Turns out, people have written entire dissertations on this topic, and DE knows exactly what these types of players are looking for. There's enough feedback to go off of for the next 5 years of development probably, and any more is very unproductive.

So if your intent is truly to know what people think sustainable content is, then a simple search will greatly help you out. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Ikyr0

[JackHargreav]

2 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

Not sure what your intent behind this thread is. Have you tried searching the suggestions subforums, or the subreddit? Turns out, people have written entire dissertations on this topic, and DE knows exactly what these types of players are looking for. There's enough feedback to go off of for the next 5 years of development probably, and any more is very unproductive.

So if your intent is truly to know what people think sustainable content is, then a simple search will greatly help you out.

Obviously I wanted to know what ppl think of as sustainable content. I heard it many times and can't really understand what ppl think of as one. And it is more simple to just ask them rather than trying to find something on the forums. Most ideas ideas are probably not titled "I have an idea for sustainable content" or whatever.

[Ikyr0]

8 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Obviously I wanted to know what ppl think of as sustainable content. I heard it many times and can't really understand what ppl think of as one. And it is more simple to just ask them rather than trying to find something on the forums. Most ideas ideas are probably not titled "I have an idea for sustainable content" or whatever.

The boat for feedback has sailed my friend. As you can gather from other responses, there's no point in giving any more. I know DE looks at some of it, sometimes. But they have a business to run so "sustainable content" may not be in the cards to begin with. They do just fine suckering in a batch of fresh players with a new frame, a floof, or Prime Access. Rinse and repeat when they leave. Don't fix what ain't broke.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Ikyr0

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Nothing is really sustainable, but I guess thats a different discusion. Have fun while it and we last.

[BossPontes888]

A hard question. People complain about players spikes where DE releases some new content and the player base doubles. Take this update as an example. Yesterday the players base was around 50-60 max in the day. Today it reached 96k players. It's normal to a game to have his ups and downs and people ask to much to DE. Many players are like: "Where are Companions 2.0, Melee 3.0 Phase 2, Ember, Vauban and Titania rework, Conclave rework, Lunaro rework?" and so on. The problem is that in my opinion is that DE creates new content faster than reworking something. The problem with reworks is that some players might not like it or simply dont use that function that got reworked which means that all that effort that was input into that rework would be just wasted because some of the players dont play that specific stuff or content that new players can't play. I honestly think that people ask to much. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make content at the same rate players "consume" it. A update that takes 2-3 months do build only lasts for around 14 days at max. I understand the content droughts where players wait several months for anything new and yes, the updates are becoming fewer but better and bigger. 

How to fix? Well make a schedule where in this month we will launch this or that is impossible. DE themselves have already stated that the only deadline they have in the year is TennoCon. An idea that could work is reworking the entire PvP system, something that could take years to make but it could make players comeback. Why? Warframe is PvE focussed, and yes it has PvP but it isn't anywhere near of what the PvE offers to the player. PvP focussed with a ranking system might work because players would want the higher ranks and the seasonal rewards. The problem is if the player doesnt like PvP. Well the only way to make something that could be worth is making end game challenges. An actual challenge. Like missions that start at lvl 250 and give the player tons of resources that could use in their Arsenal, rivens or dojo. Or make mission that last longer but that are difficult. This would also take many months to make so we might never see this content simply because it will to long and the gamble might be to high.

[Rawbeard]

16 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Well I think that is a bit early to say.

we have two, one already for sure with content abandoned and reused elsewhere and a second with at best one more boss fight... if at all

[Aluzhun]

How about a more effective way to farm Kuva? I would have played the hell out of the new Kuva disruption mission had it not been so stingy with the resource drops.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Aluzhun

[JackHargreav]

14 minutes ago, Aluzhun said:

How about a more effective way to farm Kuva? I would have played the hell out of the new Kuva disruption mission had it not been so stingy with the resource drops.

Oh yeah. I forgot it came out. How much it drops? 200 like the survival ones?

[844448]

18 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Oh yeah. I forgot it came out. How much it drops? 200 like the survival ones?

350 on rotation C, so 350 in less than 2 minutes if all conduits activated at the same time and survive

[TenebraeAeterna]

Alright...

Make an infested free-roam area that uses dynamic terrain generation to stay in a constant state of evolution...meaning that it'll constantly restructure itself so that the landscape is different each day...creating a sort of ever-changing labyrinthine landscape. Have a complex AI that formulates quests within this area based upon a variety of parameters...taking into consideration how players are defeating previous iterations and building upon said parameters to construct more complex quests that have adapted to what the majority are using to succeed within said quests. The more players interact with the free-roam area, the more difficult it becomes...as it collects more data from more players and compensates. If players are starting to fail very regularly...the AI will then begin to ease up a little, lowering the difficulty again. This then becomes a balancing act where the AI works towards becoming progressively more difficult without progressing beyond the community to the point where they'll never be able to keep up.

Now add a progress gauge that fills throughout the month if players don't keep chiseling at it through the completion of quests.

This gauge will represent the evolution of the infestation, as this entire area is a sort of "hive" developed to perfect the infestation and grow. If the gauge is left to fill...new infested creations will be created, at least a new one for each time the gauge fills, and an invasion-type event transpiring across the solar system where the Infestation has reached critical mass and starts to invade all the various planets in an attempt to consume all life...forcing players to deal with these infested incursions and engage in quests within the new free-roam area to quell the flare of infestation and return it to normal levels.

Outsource the creation of new infestation units from the best of the Tennogen community, I'm looking at you Faven, so that it doesn't heavily bog down the actual development team.

TL;DR:

• Infested Free Roam Area
• Ever changing landscape (Think Minecraft Terrain generation. This works because the infestation is organic and mechanical in nature, which ensures that any weird terrain generation makes sense.)
• AI that learns from players to create quests with difficulty based upon their overall performance.
• Monthly time-limit where failure to stop the Infestation results in new horrors and the infestation reaching critical mass...affecting all planets.

Edited August 31, 2019 by TenebraeAeterna

[JackHargreav]

12 minutes ago, 844448 said:

350 on rotation C, so 350 in less than 2 minutes if all conduits activated at the same time and survive

Oh wow. That doesn't sound great.

[JackHargreav]

2 minutes ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

Alright...

Make an infested free-roam area that uses dynamic terrain generation to stay in a constant state of evolution...meaning that it'll constantly restructure itself so that the landscape is different each day...creating a sort of ever-changing labyrinthine landscape. Have a complex AI that formulates quests within this area based upon a variety of parameters...taking into consideration how players are defeating previous iterations and building upon said parameters to construct more complex quests that have adapted to what the majority are using to succeed within said quests. The more players interact with the free-roam area, the more difficult it becomes...as it collects more data from more players and compensates. If players are starting to fail very regularly...the AI will then begin to ease up a little, lowering the difficulty again. This then becomes a balancing act where the AI works towards becoming progressively more difficult without progressing beyond the community to the point where they'll never be able to keep up.

Now add a progress gauge that fills throughout the month if players don't keep chiseling at it through the completion of quests.

This gauge will represent the evolution of the infestation, as this entire area is a sort of "hive" developed to perfect the infestation and grow. If the gauge is left to fill...new infested creations will be created, at least a new one for each time the gauge fills, and an invasion-type event transpiring across the solar system where the Infestation has reached critical mass and starts to invade all the various planets in an attempt to consume all life...forcing players to deal with these infested incursions and engage in quests within the new free-roam area to quell the flare of infestation and return it to normal levels.

Outsource the creation of new infestation units from the best of the Tennogen community, I'm looking at you Faven, so that it doesn't heavily bog down the actual development team.

This is one sounds pretty good. I'd actually like to have this in the game.

[TenebraeAeterna]

3 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

This is one sounds pretty good. I'd actually like to have this in the game.

Thanks!

Not sure how difficult it would be, as I'm sure it would be a lot of work...but the payoff would likely be very nice and provide people with something exceedingly enjoyable that's entirely built around replayability. That's without whatever rewards are provided atop of the system.

[Kaotyke]

5 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Oh wow. That doesn't sound great.

I dont know, when I did the Kuva disruption I was with 2 others.

23 minutes and 2450 Kuva.

Of course, the other 2 guys were deadly afraid of picking up the keys and using them, so we were kinda going 1-2 conduits at a time and just going away from the Conduit that needed defence to the other side of the map (No, they were not looking for the Demolitors as sometimes they were at EXTRACTION).

Might be better with a team that actually does things. How much Kuva can we get in 23 minutes in Survival again?

[XzWasPzX]

What is sustainable content? For example, after War Within, what brings a universe of posibilities with the riven mods, the operator focus schools, the kuva farming...

So, its basically a content that creates a new context for the game and the players, a forward step. 

And i have a lot of hope wit The New War, cause i think is going to set a new context for everyone, because its going to bring not just a new set of maps, but new enemies, locations and a new purpose for our missions. Please be patient, we will get what we want, im pretty sure.

[844448]

40 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Oh wow. That doesn't sound great.

compared to kuva survival where you get 200 every 2,5 minutes, it's quite a lot if your team is individually competent taking down the demolyst

[Gabbynaru]

Good gameplay that makes you want to keep on playing. Warframe already has that.

[Karonuva]

It's not the content that needs to be sustainable as much as it is the playerbase thinking and demanding they should have an endless stream of content even after like 5000+ hrs of playtime. Would it be nice? Sure. But it won't help because the same people complaining will churn through that content, burn themselves out, and then start complaining again.

[Nitro747]

It's simple. I'll give one example of each:

POE/FORTUNA: not sustainable. They are "islands" of game content. There's no real reason for anyone to go back there once they finish grinding up all of its resources. Making things worse, the resources, crafting materials, etc are contained within themselves; they have no connection to the rest of the game. Its not like Argon crystal which are resources gathered in normal void missions and that are required to craft a number of blueprints. The only way to craft POE/Vallis blueprints is by exclusively grinding the regions. Asides from that, there's nothing else to do from the main game: they are bad for leveling, they are bad for gathering relics, they don't offer any other resources other than the ones locked within the are, there is no way to open relics in the regions. It's almost as if they were a game on their own. On top of that, the gameplay of the region is almost a niche; its not as thrilling as the usual Warframe gameplay, which is the biggest reason most people play this game. Once a player completes all content in POE/Fortuna, which takes only a couple of weeks, the player will most likely ignore that part of the game and go back to playing sorties, farm prime parts and kuva.

An imaginary, supposed Survival game mode rework/update: sustainable content. Imagine if they added different ways of completing survival missions, different objects, different context, new maps, new mechanics. That would be sustainable content. Survival is a game mode available across all of the solar system and a staple of Warframe. Its a game mode that can be played in Sorties, void fissures, for farming resources, for farming relics, for challenge. And it offers the good old fast paced gore inducing gameplay everyone loves. That being said, it would be a content that players would have a reason to go back to regardless if they played all new maps available because there will still be motives and incentives for playing the new content.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

21 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

i  don't feel that it's a fair criticisms to level at the players who "very rarely" specify, i feel that's more an indictment of how DE doesn't listen and has an abysmal track record for releasing content.

most of us that can and have provided actual solutions eventually get tired of screaming at a brick wall for things to change and for any criticism that isn't a glowing review to be censored into oblivion by heavy handed moderators.

the fact that people grow weary of doing this over and over with nearly no results is a failure of DE, not the player base.

if you feel i'm off base here, go over to reddit... take a look at the feedback that actually has been implemented, and tell me how many of those things aren't simple fixes like ui and QoL, and how many are substantial changes to the core gameplay modes...

you'll find the answer is nil.  either that feedback never makes it to them because they are shielded by the moderators from any substantial criticism or revolutionary game play loop thoughts, or they completely ignore it in favor of updating our graphics to look like dog vomit.

sure, people defend de on this all the time, but that's because they don't have the years of experience shouting actual solutions at a brick wall yet.  nor do they have the experience of other games (such as PoE) THAT ACTUALLY LISTEN TO PLAYERS AND IMPLEMENT AND EXPERIMENT WITH NEW CONTENT ON A REGULAR UPDATE SCHEDULE.

instead players make excuses for their abuses in a sick sort of stockholme syndrome because of motivation by sunk cost fallacy.

I have to disagree. DE not only listens to its playerbase, they actually do it to a fault. We are equally responsible for the updates, changes and fixes...more so really. 

Consider the difficulty setting of Fortuna at release. Why was that changed?

Disruption was lightened. Why?

Frames and weapons nerfed or buffed...why?

Virtually insignificant cosmetic fixes. Who triggered those fixes? You get the point.

People are simply impatient and uninformed about the time needed to fix, change or update things. And when those changes aren't done in the time the player THINKS it should be done, out comes the pitchforks. "We want it and we want it YESTERDAY". 

DE is a company of adults that understands their playerbase range is from 6 years old to 76 years old, at skill levels from a noob to a vet and fans who like to compare apples to oranges. Imagine trying to decipher the mental stages of that group, figuring out who is trolling, OCD, ADHD, content creators looking for views and subs, bandwagoners, white knights, salty vets, etc. Who deserves a listen? Who deserves a say in the game? According to DE's track record, all of them, of course. See the problem yet?

This is every long running game's problem of course. Pick a comment section or look up "content drought" and you'll see the pattern. The point is, DE is working and moving. We should continue to be supporting and constructively critisizing but, most importantly, we should understand that we all don't want the same things. Sustainable content is subjective and each subject addressed will always upset the opposing. DE knows this but it seems we mostly don't.

[TheGlobfather]

21 hours ago, trst said:

I'm not trying to make excuses for them either, I'm just trying to be realistic in my expectations in what to expect from the game and company in the future. I've seen too many communities ruin their experiences with games because they can't see the bigger picture or put unrealistic expectations on themselves.

Is it not realistic to expect developers to make content for their long term player base? We haven't had worthwhile content since Fortuna, imo. Nothing that could keep me playing more than a few days at least. Generally I don't think the people asking for changes are asking too much of DE, I think DE has been under delivering with their updates for a while now, and I hope it's because they are working hard on Railjack, etc... but they could be communicating a lot better what their intentions are with this game. I mean really, all we want is to have a conversation about content drought and end game content and we are completely ignored over and over again. I love Warframe, I love DE, but I can't keep playing when I've exhausted all of the content in the game.

Edited August 31, 2019 by TheGlobfather

[Olphalarepth]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

I have to disagree. DE not only listens to its playerbase, they actually do it to a fault. We are equally responsible for the updates, changes and fixes...more so really. 

Consider the difficulty setting of Fortuna at release. Why was that changed?

Disruption was lightened. Why?

Frames and weapons nerfed or buffed...why?

1 - Fortuna was dumbed down because it was their new prize bird and couldn't afford for a 1 year development project to drive away players. 2 kind of people complained about it:

- Those who thought it was too difficult

- Those who complained after Fortuna was made easier as they wanted something more difficult.

If you are willing to dig the forum you should still be able to find their posts.

 

2 - Disruption was lightened almost for the same thing and it happened right when people started implying that demolysts were so freaking OP and tanky that Riven would have been mandatory. Do you understand where I'm going at?

 

3 - Frames and weapons nerfed or buffed. You really don't want to start this, Saryn topic went for over 40 pages if I recall correctly and balance in warframe is close to extinction.

1 hour ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Virtually insignificant cosmetic fixes. Who triggered those fixes? You get the point.

People are simply impatient and uninformed about the time needed to fix, change or update things. And when those changes aren't done in the time the player THINKS it should be done, out comes the pitchforks. "We want it and we want it YESTERDAY". 

DE is a company of adults that understands their playerbase range is from 6 years old to 76 years old, at skill levels from a noob to a vet and fans who like to compare apples to oranges. Imagine trying to decipher the mental stages of that group, figuring out who is trolling, OCD, ADHD, content creators looking for views and subs, bandwagoners, white knights, salty vets, etc. Who deserves a listen? Who deserves a say in the game? According to DE's track record, all of them, of course. See the problem yet?

This is every long running game's problem of course. Pick a comment section or look up "content drought" and you'll see the pattern. The point is, DE is working and moving. We should continue to be supporting and constructively critisizing but, most importantly, we should understand that we all don't want the same things. Sustainable content is subjective and each subject addressed will always upset the opposing. DE knows this but it seems we mostly don't.

Sure thing, we are the impatient bunch. DE has had YEARS of time and, not counting 2 open world wastelands, all we got is the same reskinned endless mission camouflaged as new, sensational, game changing, never seen before but always the same endless mission. WOW.

The excalibur umbra only took how many years for a 45 min quest with a hyping opening cutscene and nothing else added?

 

Yup, we are the impatient ones. Uninformed, maybe, since we don't know what happens in DE offices but neither you do so don't call others uninformed.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Olphalarepth

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, Olphalarepth said:

Frames and weapons nerfed or buffed. You really don't want to start this, Saryn topic went for over 40 pages if I recall correctly

Hoo boy, that thread was a dumpster fire of people basically yelling "SHUT UP" at each other.

[Atsia]

19 minutes ago, Olphalarepth said:

The excalibur umbra only took how many years for a 45 min quest with a hyping opening cutscene and nothing else added?

In on this, not that long. IIRC, development for the quest only properly started like 2 or 3 months before release. They really didn't have much intentions of doing anything with Umbra without the endless complaints from us.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Atsia