"If It Was Painful for Me, It Should be as Painful for Thee"

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

Ahh gatekeeping how? The gamemode is accessible to everyone in terms of conclave so nobody but yourself is stopping you.... even you yourself said with the UMs implemented you still wouldn’t play conclave so again it’s not an incentive how ones say to try to earn conclave standing..... it’s not “you have to suffer though the pain” it’s people believe this coentent should be exclusive to this content. Please name a game where you can get PvP items withough playing PvP. Not characters not weapons but PvP items earned through ranking up. It’s very few games like that because from a player standpoint it’s not acceptable to much of anywhere else. Do you think D2 players would be happy you can earn iron banner items by doing strikes? (Mostly not at all) many would feel disgusted by that. 

No I’m not comparing the games directly but the principle remains. Personally I find it better that these items in warframe are cosmetic and have no actual affect on gameplay. Even more of a reason to have them behind an exclusive faction because what’s wrong with keeping these items outside of the realm of um ifnthey don’t affect gameplay at all.

ive seen people say Conclave players are toxicz yet have you seen the forums and reddit most of us and myself included are toxic on these exact forums dissmissing being blatantly rude and obnoxious towards another. Insults and the alienation of each other. So are you really going to just say the conclave is sooo toxic when many of us partake this same toxic demeanor in game or in forums?

 

i don’t feel like continuing but again nobody’s gatekeeping some sigils and Syandana and amror sets and skins. You all have access to it. And if more people would queue up it’d solve matchmaking fix skill gap some and more. Most of you don’t want to play it and that’s okay. But “it’s DEs decision they know what their doing” and “if you don’t like it you don’t have to play it “

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 minutes ago, Vethalon said:

Dude, I got to say, I love your posts!

Uhhhhh... Like, follow and subscribe? ^^ (I have no form of youtube or anything else.)

[Darth_Predator]

22 минуты назад, Vethalon сказал:

I'm a vet myself, I did most of those grinds myself, I don't find the time I spent on a stupid grind devalued, because it didn't have any value to begin with. I did it because I wanted to have something and I wanted to have it, to have fun with it. I would love for everyone to be able to have that fun too. A bit of grind is good, it feels like you earned something. If however that grind get's reduced later, it really shouldn't effect you in anyway. I have this discussion with my best friend a lot. He is annoyed that daily Tribute sigils aren't locked behind a specific playtime any more and that everyone has the Prime Operator Suit now, which I find utterly ridiculous.

I get being proud of something you had to acquire through skill. Logging in 900 days is not skill, paying money at a specific time for prime access is not skill, doing an incredibly tedious and repetitive task for hours and hours is not skill.

I'd have absolutely no problem with the introduction of say a special Sigil for players who can do 6x3 Eidolons, I'll probably never be able to do that.

I'm not really against conclave standing only being available through conclave. I'm more interested in the whole Hema topic.

I can double that. Every word.

And I did that hema research thing 2 times now. For my main clan and for the fresh started clan I happen to have in the alliance. Obviously I did second farm in a farm squad with boosters and kavats all over the place, my own clan got that waaaaaaay back in the past. Still too much of an investment for what hema is. Especially considering that these days it is hard to attract even new players to your clan without having all the things, but that's whole other topic in itself.

[TheKazz91]

So responding to each for the OP's original points.

Hema: I have a clan that just recently got to maybe 8 players total with only half of those being active. I started it about a month before PoE with just me and one other RL friend. We managed to unlock nearly every other research project with-in a few months the hema research though... Still just sitting there I think we have maybe 10% of the mutegen samples contributed so far? IDK I kinda gave up on that ever being completed so much so that I sold my hema riven. The kicker is that the hema isn't even the best weapon that comes out of the dojo research it just takes far more effort to obtain for no reason other than it was originally put in with requirements that were far too strenuous and DE felt bad about making it easier after some people had already completed the research. So 100% agree with the OP on this one.

Focus: I stopped caring about lenses about the time that I unlocked rank 5 energizing dash and realized that I could just do casual 3x3 caps every night and get all my focus from eidolon shards. It might take longer but at least I don't want to slam my head into a wall every time I run a bounty mission solely for the lens drops and don't get them not to mention the hours of crafting time and forma investment required. Now I'll just toss what ever lens I have in the frames and weapons I use a lot and think of it as a bonus supplementary source of focus but it has long since stopped being my may source of focus the Lua lens doesn't change that. When I get a BP for it I'll either sell it for plat or sit on it until it's convenient to make it. 

Conclave: I remember when I first started playing Warframe I was looking through mods doing some theory crafting stuff and saw some of the conclave mods and though "holy cow thats dope AF!" Looked up how to get it and it said I had to go do conclave stuff so I was like ight I can do that. Ran conclave and hated it but I stuck with it long enough to buy one of those mods I wanted then went to stick it in my Warframe and realized that I could only use it in conclave.... And from that moment on anything related to conclave suddenly vanished for existence. 

[DoomFruit]

6 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Not going to read the whole comment section, but I'll say this. I've run two accounts into MR 20+ since 2013. I'm a vet. I've always thought the Hema mutagen cost was ridiculous and never once considered attempting that grind. I won't buy it with plat unless it's the very last weapon I need to have maxed out everything and haven't gotten it through dojo yet--and even then I might skip it.

Don't plat out for it. Ever. You do that, and you're telling DE "I approve of this insane grind, and wish to reward you for it with money" in the only language that they understand.

[Cibyllae]

10 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Congrats, you're the second person who missed this part, and just like the other guy, you jumped the gun at that first sentence, too.

Bud one sentence doesn't negate the whole tone of the post, not to mention your title. 

[Ultimatesoup]

Il y a 4 heures, Vethalon a dit :

I'm a vet myself, I did most of those grinds myself, I don't find the time I spent on a stupid grind devalued, because it didn't have any value to begin with. I did it because I wanted to have something and I wanted to have it, to have fun with it. I would love for everyone to be able to have that fun too. A bit of grind is good, it feels like you earned something. If however that grind get's reduced later, it really shouldn't effect you in anyway. I have this discussion with my best friend a lot. He is annoyed that daily Tribute sigils aren't locked behind a specific playtime any more and that everyone has the Prime Operator Suit now, which I find utterly ridiculous.

I get being proud of something you had to acquire through skill. Logging in 900 days is not skill, paying money at a specific time for prime access is not skill, doing an incredibly tedious and repetitive task for hours and hours is not skill.

I'd have absolutely no problem with the introduction of say a special Sigil for players who can do 6x3 Eidolons, I'll probably never be able to do that.

I'm not really against conclave standing only being available through conclave. I'm more interested in the whole Hema topic.

We're pretty much the same, and I overall agree with what you are saying. The single point where I disagree is that dedication through time expenditure cannot be disregarded. Runescape and WoW (The old extensions/Classic in this case) are pretty good examples of it.

Really, we're on the same page, I just think that this is once again a case of "vets vs new players" / "vets vs other players" because people fail to see the broader picture, and that needs to stop.

[000l000]

Lua lens is only another lens, nothing mandatory since you can get tons of focus only doing a few ESO with an affinity boost up.

Hema doesn't need that much effort either cause you only need ressource boosts, a few survival sessions in derelict do the trick.

Sure you'll need to use boosts if you don't want to spend that much time doing that but (1) small amount of plat is easy to find (2) Warframe is free to play, stop thinking DE owes you anything (3) you can even get free boosts each day or with a sortie so you can plan what to do with these too.

Everyone is stupidly doing Hydron over and over again all day long but there are still some people to complain about Hema ? Do some derelict survival instead, no rocket science. If you need easy focus ESO is the answer. XP and ressources is what you get when you basically play, what's wrong with people nowadays - Play the game and profit. This isn't even grind, no one forces you to to farm anything at all, spend two days in a row instead of a month or even to play the game at all.

Complaining is easy though, hopefully some players are able to sort out their issues by themselves instead of coming here telling DE how to do their job.

[CuChulainnWD]

On 2019-09-15 at 5:02 AM, Sean said:

 

Common false assumption; it's one of those things that has zero actual source and just gets repeated by random non-DE people.

DE is well within their legal right to re-release them if they so choose.

There is nothing legally binding that would have stated they could never return, think of it more akin to buying a Prime Access.

I personally don't care if they were to never return (it makes sense to leave them in the vault) and it could be argued that it would be a slap in the face to some Founders, but as far as any legal related matters to it? Nope.

DE has public ally stated that the prime and weapons were exclusive. In CANADA that is a legal binding contract. (Verbal contracts are legally binding in Canada) They could be sued, and have no end of difficulty if they back out now. End of.

[ReaverKane]

On 2019-09-15 at 9:16 AM, taiiat said:

things might possibly go in a more favorable direction if people were creative when complaining rather than that something isn't handed to them. if people would try to ask for more Game Mechanics / features to make the acquisition of __ more enjoyable via giving Players more to do, then maybe things would be more likely to change in any way.
but, that's not what 99% of people bring up. they just say "this isn't easy enough" or "this isn't fast enough", among other things. 

 

"i don't like __ so it needs to be different" is not particularly different, to be quite fair.

As someone who has done the work for Hema, i can say it is broken, it's too much work for a piece of crap MR fodder. It's not worth it, and them not changing is one of DE's black marks in developing Warframe. It was clearly poorly planned and executed, but because a minority was sitting on a ton of resources when it came out, that made it "ok" to release. That's simply not how you make good content.

The Universal medallion is the same kind of deal. Especially in a situation where conclave is pretty much unplayable. I mean, last time i tried i spent 5 minutes alone on a map before giving up and playing some other GAME. I'm actually someone that liked conclave and played a bit of it, but it's almost impossible to get a match, and when you do you have to pray it's not a host with 300 ping or package losses of hell which means it's unplayable. So giving people an alternative to work towards the rewards from conclave would be in DE's best interests... But well... Sometimes they don't know where those are... I mean, look at arbitrations, that's something they're actively trying to fix... And it's pretty much 1 step forward, 2 steps back, because they KNOW they don't have stuff for people to work for long term, so what they do is try to make stuff hard to obtain as a easy fix for their lack of end-game.
And it's not even their fault either... The community is more interested in arguing about gender bent warframes than end-game possibilities.

But the problem lies deeper than veteran entitlement. The problem is that DE is stuck in an old mentality of making things extremely scarce to try and boost permanence. Thing is that worked in the naughties and 90's when there were much less games to choose from. In an age when your average PC gamer has a ton of unplayed games on their steam/Epic/GOG, etc Libraries, creating goals that are extremely out of reach, many of them that aren't even under the player's control if they'll obtain it, due to RNG. That's a dangerous approach, and it clearly is wearing off.

And yet, DE still heavily relies on it, like we saw with Gauss' weapons. And while the 10% completionists will rush that, and grind till they drop, the rest of the people will not even try, and it ends up having the opposite effect.

 

[FrostDragoon]

11 hours ago, Ultimatesoup said:

Although I don't clearly understand you're definition about what an "entitled vet" is in that part, I'll try to summarize : 

-You're calling people that went through the grinding and are mad that their time is basically wasted because DE finally understands that grind is fun for no one : "Entitled", while 

-You're saying that they're a vocal minority while pretty much 100% of the vets have been LOUDLY asking for an endgame since years

Ah, the old "take it out of context and apply it where it doesn't belong" tactic. Classic.

[FrostDragoon]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The whole thing with Rivens is that until ever weapon has a Disposition that is balanced for both its popularity and for its relative strength, then we're going to get changes to them.

And since the community shifts its popularity of weapons every time a new mod comes out for that type of weapon, as well as every time a new weapon is released... that's going to be never.

It was a bad plan from the start. Popularity =/= Power. It should never have been trying to balance around popularity to begin with.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Fart bagpipe and popsicle prime ive already decided im buying the next time I get a75%discount coupon. I assume ultimately this is the real reason, to drive people to spend plat on trash that's a pain to build. Seriously though the infested lab seems to be the biggest grind of any lab. Everything costs way too much time and investment. Mutagen samples do not drop, mass drops one or maybe two at a time for gear that takes 5 or 10 to build. 

[taiiat]

31 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

That's simply not how you make good content.

and when you do you have to pray it's not a host with 300 ping or package losses of hell which means it's unplayable.

 

And yet, DE still heavily relies on it, like we saw with Gauss' weapons. And while the 10% completionists will rush that, and grind till they drop, the rest of the people will not even try, and it ends up having the opposite effect.

and neither would be just giving it to people by lowering the costs. the only way to make it actually better would be to make collecting the Resources more interactive and have things to do.
which is exactly what my Post was talking about, that nobody asks for a more engaging, richer Gameplay solution, they.... just say that they should get it too so give it to them.

i'm not sure how you can have so many Sessions as Player Hosted regardless of their connection when there are plenty of Dedicated Servers and matches do default to those when available.
granted, those Servers are pretty much all being Hosted in the US and EU. so if you're located elsewhere that would change things.

 

it's not like a new Weapon is actual content anyways. no matter how neat a Weapon is to shoot, it's still being shot at the same Lancers either way. you have to search with a magnifying glass to find the more interersting Enemies in the game, while wading through that sea of garbage Enemies that almost make the game more boring by existing rather than there just being less Enemies.

[FrostDragoon]

7 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it's not like a new Weapon is actual content anyways. no matter how neat a Weapon is to shoot, it's still being shot at the same Lancers either way. you have to search with a magnifying glass to find the more interersting Enemies in the game, while wading through that sea of garbage Enemies that almost make the game more boring by existing rather than there just being less Enemies.

This is what Cetus and Fortuna attempted to bridge. Combat there is very different than most other places in the game. Some frames do better there that didn't do well in the base game. Some weapons do too. This was intended to make those new frames and weapons into more interesting content, so your argument (which is a commonly repeated one within the community) is much less valid than it used to be, though still holds some relevance.

[taiiat]

22 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

This is what Cetus and Fortuna attempted to bridge. Combat there is very different than most other places in the game. Some frames do better there that didn't do well in the base game. Some weapons do too. This was intended to make those new frames and weapons into more interesting content, so your argument (which is a commonly repeated one within the community) is much less valid than it used to be, though still holds some relevance.

which works for maybe a week and then that's a normal part of your Missions anyways.
the Venus Landscape has much better Enemies than usually seen elsewhere, but that still doesn't make another Weapon more interesting to much of any significant degree. it's just the nature of if you find a cool new Weapon, what you go do with it is what you were already doing. having custom content for every Weapon is.... obviously impossible and wouldn't even be a good game. but what it does mean is that a new Weapon or even a new Warframe doesn't really add content on its own.

so it's not that MOA's and Kitguns are more content by being presented alongside a Gameplay content expansion, it's the Gameplay content expansion that makes everything new and old more interesting for a while.

[Birdframe_Prime]

58 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It should never have been trying to balance around popularity to begin with.

You obviously weren't reading.

They stopped balancing on popularity alone two 'balances' ago. As of Equinox Prime they are balanced on both popularity and base power.

Which is why, as I pointed out:

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Now that it's based on both, the adjustments have been getting smaller, the number of weapons adjusted have been less, and the only real wall-of-dread that's rolling up is the Melee ones that are all coming with the melee stat reworks in the near future.

So yeah.

Regardless, at what point does my comment stop being relevant? Your attempt to counter it with only one sentence as a zinger doesn't actually work when it relied on your basic lack of reading.

Rivens are going to change, constantly. They always were going to change. Expecting there to be some sense of 'I bought this, now it's perfect' that actually lasts from an item that literally doesn't last is completely ridiculous.

[Teridax68]

Agreed fully. Going further, I feel the very mentality behind it is utterly perverse: nobody should feel proud to have genuinely suffered in a video game, much less want others to suffer as well. While there is value in achieving something difficult and being proud of it, there's unfortunately a disturbing trend where players in Warframe confuse challenge with unpleasantness. In this particular case, it seems like a few people have bought into the idea that if the game is unpleasant to them, yet they still force themselves through it, then that's some sort of rite of passage that needs to be inflicted upon others, and that changing it would be somehow unfair to them, even though they felt it was worth their time at the moment they made their choice. More worrying still, people at DE themselves seem to have advocated the same, and it strikes me as incredibly weird for a game designer to deliberately make their game less pleasant than it could be, simply because some players believe that improving the game in a certain way would retroactively invalidate the unpleasantness they had to deal with. Newsflash: it doesn't, and if you decided to force yourself through excessive ODD runs or any amount of Conclave, you're never getting that time back no matter what. If some part of the game makes you suffer to progress, that is something to be criticized and improved upon by the developers, not enshrined as this thing everyone needs to do just out of fairness for a select few.

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Regardless, at what point does my comment stop being relevant?

When this is your argument:

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

they are balanced on both popularity and base power

Popularity should never have been a factor.

But I actually didn't say your comment wasn't relevant. I said that particular line of argumentation was less relevant. But if you'd rather be touchy about it because of...

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

your basic lack of reading

... be my guest.

[FrostDragoon]

22 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If some part of the game makes you suffer to progress, that is something to be criticized and improved upon by the developers

In a nutshell.

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Popularity should never have been a factor.

Well sorry you feel that way, but the stated purpose of Rivens was to bring 'less popular weapons' some love.

How do you do that without judging their popularity?

Again. Lack of reading comprehension, well done.

[FrostDragoon]

10 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Well sorry you feel that way, but the stated purpose of Rivens was to bring 'less popular weapons' some love.

How do you do that without judging their popularity?

Again. Lack of reading comprehension, well done.

It was a bad idea to begin with, worrying about popularity. I don't get what's so difficult about that for you.

[Velothed]

11 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Everyone is stupidly doing Hydron over and over again all day long but there are still some people to complain about Hema ? Do some derelict survival instead

 

11 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Hema doesn't need that much effort either cause you only need ressource boosts, a few survival sessions in derelict do the trick.

Dude, I don't and I've been playing tons of Derelict, I remember the old ODD days when that was basically our endgame XD I also always have a resource booster active. I spend like 30h with my clanmate and a nekros in ODS to get around 2000 Mutagen samples. The main problem is, that it's only Derelict and while Derelict is fun and you can use it to level, you never go there while doing anything else. I hate repetitive stuff. I always change up what missions I do, what frames, what weapons. In playing this way I acquired 3000 Mutagen Samples over 6 years / 2000h playtime. They should just make them drop on Eris too.

[FrostDragoon]

11 minutes ago, Vethalon said:

 

Dude, I don't and I've been playing tons of Derelict, I remember the old ODD days when that was basically our endgame XD I also always have a resource booster active. I spend like 30h with my clanmate and a nekros in ODS to get around 2000 Mutagen samples. The main problem is, that it's only Derelict and while Derelict is fun and you can use it to level, you never go there while doing anything else. I hate repetitive stuff. I always change up what missions I do, what frames, what weapons. In playing this way I acquired 3000 Mutagen Samples over 6 years / 2000h playtime. They should just make them drop on Eris too.

No, they need to just reduce the stupid and arbitrary quantity it requires. It's that simple.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

They really should reduce the required amounts or else just remove the plat cost to buy them and have the blueprint only be for clan research xp.