power isnt the devil.

[DreisterDino]

I will never agree with the "Nerf yourself to make the game interesting" argument...(and i have never heard this statement in any other game)

In most games i played  the gameplay-loop basically went like this:

• i am on the same level as the enemies, but they slightly become stronger and it gets harder to deal with them
• i earn new weapons/skills to be able to keep up with those enemies and overpower them again
• there is a constant back and forth between enemies getting stronger + me getting stronger in response (or simultaniously)

 

Warframe is the first game for me which ignores this basic gamedesign concept more or less completly after some time in the game.

Starting in Warframe, the gameplay-loop mentioned above is still there (and thats probably why many players say Warframe is best when you are relatively new in the game). But at some point its not a back and forth anymore...we get bombarded with new weapons and skills while the enemies remain the same...

 

Result: It doesnt matter if you aquire new skills/gear/weapons anymore, because you simply dont need it for anything.

And for a Loot focussed game like Warframe, this is pretty bad.

Edited October 28, 2019 by DreisterDino

[Kimimoto]

On 2019-10-26 at 1:30 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

So anything added to the game has to be good or it's a "useless reward" but if it's actually good than its "more power creep".

Time to learn about Horizontal VS Vertical Progression

[Mr.Fluffins]

I will never understand people who, after spending hundrerds of hours in the game complain that it is "too easy".

I don't know a single PvE game that doesn't become trivial after some time. There are people who beat dark souls bosses on NG+8 while naked, without blocking, dodging or running. There are people who play IWBTG on impossible. Even the hardest raids in MMOs get on farm status by the persistant enough guilds after enough time. D2 raids become trivial. Even games with no stat and item progression, like turn based or real time strategies become trivial against even the hardest AI if you play it long enough.

Warframe is no exception, and I have no idea why people expect it to be otherwise. You have spent enough time maxing out gear, leveling and playing the game, and now it is too easy. This is normal, it can't be any other way, because even if all your options become MUCH more limited, and enemies will be set to be beaten by weapons with primed and riven mods only in a 4 man squad, you will still get used to it overtime, and manage to solo such content in the end, once again complaining about lack of endgame.

Moreover, for every player complaining about muh endgame there are a bunch more who struggle with solar rails, stalker, theralyst, sorties or profit taker.

On an unrelated note, I love how everytime I go to the forums, there are a ton of "tough guys" saying how "easy" level 100 and 200 enemies are, yet when I am actually playing the game, I see players getting bodied on a regular basis in arbitrations and even sorties (regardless of MR), where enemy levels are barely around the 100 level mark...

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

45 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

I will never understand people who, after spending hundrerds of hours in the game complain that it is "too easy".

I don't know a single PvE game that doesn't become trivial after some time. There are people who beat dark souls bosses on NG+8 while naked, without blocking, dodging or running. There are people who play IWBTG on impossible. Even the hardest raids in MMOs get on farm status by the persistant enough guilds after enough time. D2 raids become trivial. Even games with no stat and item progression, like turn based or real time strategies become trivial against even the hardest AI if you play it long enough.

Warframe is no exception, and I have no idea why people expect it to be otherwise. You have spent enough time maxing out gear, leveling and playing the game, and now it is too easy. This is normal, it can't be any other way, because even if all your options become MUCH more limited, and enemies will be set to be beaten by weapons with primed and riven mods only in a 4 man squad, you will still get used to it overtime, and manage to solo such content in the end, once again complaining about lack of endgame.

Moreover, for every player complaining about muh endgame there are a bunch more who struggle with solar rails, stalker, theralyst, sorties or profit taker.

On an unrelated note, I love how everytime I go to the forums, there are a ton of "tough guys" saying how "easy" level 100 and 200 enemies are, yet when I am actually playing the game, I see players getting bodied on a regular basis in arbitrations and even sorties (regardless of MR), where enemy levels are barely around the 100 level mark...

The game is too easy however....

[844448]

On 2019-10-27 at 3:12 PM, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Probably honestly. I also have a fire ace of spades build and some dope builds with exit strategy or the new raid weapons. PvP and pve. And I’m fairly new at d2 and yeah it’s a big difference depending on what your building in. I usually run max discipline and high mobility on my hunter and I tested max strength max regeneration on my warlock and I can say if you put in the work mobs are wet paper in d2 but the progression to get to that is very nice 

edit and while riskrunner is aoe to an extent I put myself in a near death situation to proc it and use it if there is no arc enemy’s. I also use the pluperfect a lot past 960 because it’s a solid ar and can shred if ur builds right 

Means I have the right to complain about those gears making enemies into wet paper and ask for their nerf to put them in line with those that don't have these perks, right? Because it should be fair and not making the other weapons obsolete

[844448]

19 hours ago, Raikh said:

Reasonable difficulty would be something like being punished by mistakes but still being able to recover if you do something right after taking a hit and having enemies live long enough to be able to be a threat, to be able to be target of your abilities without evaporizing but not taking ages to kill assuming your weapon/frame builds aren't a total blunder.

How many we had this just to see people cry it's broken or unfair? Terra corpus are considered broken, manic gets people crying so what kind of "reasonable difficulty" that is acceptable?

19 hours ago, Raikh said:

But since that time we haven't gotten really any content to even try to match the power increase. Sorties have been around since then and haven't moved an inch and they were trivial back then. ESO and Abritrations only go above Sortie 3 level well into the thing and the difference between 100 and 120 isn't a huge deal, especially for unarmored enemies the health increase up to 200 isn't something hugely concerning for the player. The only thing that gets cocnerning is how hard enemies hit and I find that, too, problematic,

The thing is, there's no way to set the average to set the bar because each player power is wildly varying so how do you set the bar that isn't impossible for average players but also not too easy for players that min-max their build?

[zruncho]

yoU neED mAke YoUr owN fUn. That's what op is essentially saying. 

This is an argument I always hear from fanboys of S#&$ games. Fallout 76 were spamming this, release No man's sky was the same. 

Let me tell you a secret OP - If the game was in a good place I wouldn't need to make my own fun.

Whenever people start spouting this bullS#&$ argument I know for a fact that things are going downhill. 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by zruncho

[Raikh]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb 844448:

How many we had this just to see people cry it's broken or unfair? Terra corpus are considered broken, manic gets people crying so what kind of "reasonable difficulty" that is acceptable?

The thing is, there's no way to set the average to set the bar because each player power is wildly varying so how do you set the bar that isn't impossible for average players but also not too easy for players that min-max their build?

I haven't followed the whole Orb Vallis complaintrain about its difficulty in great detail. But from what I know it was especially about newer players who felt outmatched against the enemies presented in the opening questline of the orb thus locking them out of progressing in Fortuna. But this is a completely different flaw from what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about endgame. Endgame is for people past the starchart. For people who have easy access to all warframes and weapons, who have all the mods and have their gear fitted out to be complete and are waititng for sometihng to appear they can hit and not die immediately without sitting in an endless mission for hours.

Fortuna isn't endgame, not even remotely. While I believe that to be a mistake as its disjointed from the main game progression of the starchart but it is what it is. Once its accessible for newer players or mid-progression players it isn't content I'm talking about. I'm also not looking to take anything from players away. Starchart etc. should just stay as it is difficulty wise. There jsut needs to be another space where "difficulty" exists so people have a place to go whne they got all their stuff from the starchart as the starchart is absolutely no match for the gear it eventually provides.

I can't tell you were exactly the bar should be. I don't have the data for that. I also know there are huge mechanical issues for actually doing endgame content, which is why I'm talking so much about how broken numbers are. I'm not advocating for Dark Souls difficulty here (would be hilarious though), I'm just asking for a place for all that player power to go and have a use.

I personally believe its important for things to have a learning curve and people being rewarded for doing the right things, be it putting together a loadout or actually playing. If there are people who have all the tools but are unwilling to learn and encounter the slightest bit of difficulty and just revel in being able to oneshot level 50 enemies for 10k times their HP, then I don't have any smypathy for such a player. They already have so much content, they don't need more stagnative content and they certainly don't need all content to be open to them. Just like I don't ask the entire game to be suited for endgame players I think people should accept that not every tiny bit of content is suited for the most incompetent and anti-ambitious player. It doesn't have to be hardcore content because inifnite missions can still provide borderline broken difficulty to those who truly seek it. But there has to be something between oneshot and nearly unkillable.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

I haven't followed the whole Orb Vallis complaintrain about its difficulty in great detail. But from what I know it was especially about newer players who felt outmatched against the enemies presented in the opening questline of the orb thus locking them out of progressing in Fortuna.

Wasn't even the Orb. Terra Corpus at launch had higher base stats which meant they scaled much quicker than any other enemy in the game.

DE even added in the Elite Terra Corpus, which have similar stats and scaling to the originals, but it seems that that wasn't enough to stop the complaints about the nerf.

[Vyra]

On 2019-10-26 at 7:30 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

And no I'm not talking about things here and there like a particular ability or weapon I'm talking about the "we need to be nerfed across the board because muh challenge" mentality.

 

I dont get it. You have absolute, godlike control over your loadouts in this game. You can decide how powerful you are to a greater extent than most other games. But people will spend like 30 forma on a loadout + use rivens + use arcanes and then turn around and complain that they're too powerful. Here's a pro tip: nobody is forcing you to use top tier loadouts all the time.

And whenever somebody points this out?

"BUT WAIT! I shouldnt have to play with one hand behind my back!"

You know, because arbitrarily limiting yourself to make the game more challenging is unacceptable for some reason But DE arbitrarily tying your hand behind your back FOR YOU is different! Somehow. Because reasons.

Right now you have a choice. You can be as powerful as possible or as weak as you want. I like having that choice.

 

Oh and last note: the community can't have it both ways. People love demanding more, new content with good rewards but at the same time people love screaming about power creep. So anything added to the game has to be good or it's a "useless reward" but if it's actually good than its "more power creep".

Thanks!

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

7 hours ago, 844448 said:

Means I have the right to complain about those gears making enemies into wet paper and ask for their nerf to put them in line with those that don't have these perks, right? Because it should be fair and not making the other weapons obsolete

D2 has pretty decent balance however. Unlike warframe. The catchmoon was performing way to well in reference. You can get many weapons that perform great in d2 and even so above weapons mentioned aren’t even the pinnacle of god like. But d2 does nerf things that perform well in fairness. Ex one eyed mask is being looked At rn and to my knowledge about to get nerfed. The tellisto as well I think. And....... the community understands and some agree. Yeah some people are upset but nobody is complaining that since their fav or admittingly to strong weap or armor is getting a nerf and is leaving or having an uproar

[Teridax68]

I feel the original post on this thread fundamentally misunderstands how incentives work: Warframe is a game that incentivizes us to become more powerful, by giving us more power as we progress through the game. Given the option between being more powerful or less powerful, the rational decision in this game is always to become more powerful, because more power makes us better at getting all of the rewards this game has on offer. Thus, we players are incentivized to become as powerful as the game allows us to be, yet Warframe also punishes us for becoming too powerful by making the game easy to the point of being boring. Effectively, we are being made to choose between fun and efficiency, a choice that no game should ever have players make.

There's this famous quote by Civilizations series designer Soren Johnson that applies particularly to this kind of discussion: Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game. Basically, what it means is that developers need to make the optimal way of playing a game also the most fun, because otherwise you end up designing a game that incentivizes players to play in a way that isn't as interesting as it could be. We are seeing this full-force in Warframe, though it is also a known problem in many other games: because this is such a well-documented phenomenon, it is useless to blame the playerbase for what is ultimately a design problem, even more so to expect players to fix it themselves. Even in a hypothetical situation where players do intentionally limit themselves for fun's sake, that doesn't work well in a multiplayer game that pushes for efficiency, because a whole bunch of missions run on the assumption that players are geared to maximize their chances of success: in other words, sacrificing power for fun is an ineffective suggestion at best, and at worst it's encouraging players to troll.

With that said, I can empathize somewhat with the OP, because a lot of the calls to nerfs on the forums are imprecise, and in my opinion don't always target where I think the problems come from: to a large extent, I don't think the problem is even one of power, but of design, in that our frames and weapons are at varying degrees of power, yet frequently are designed in a way that doesn't make for interesting gameplay. Ember in her current state is a good example: in terms of power, she's one of the worst frames around, but is arguably also one of the least healthy for the game, because she is infamous for having this ability that basically turns off combat in her vicinity, by dint of auto-damaging everyone through walls constantly. She's by no means the only frame with this problem, and beyond that there are plenty more frames with abilities that can eliminate interaction via poorly-implemented crowd control, invisibility, invincibility, etc. Many of these frames, like Vauban or Loki, aren't even that strong right now. In this respect, I'm perfectly fine with frames being as powerful as one wants them to be, and do even crazier things than they do now, so long as the stuff they do leaves room for interaction with the game. In some cases, there's likely no getting around a nerf, particularly when it comes to how our mods make our weapons one-shot even high-level enemies, but in many cases it's gonna be a case of reworking certain abilities, mechanics and systems, without any specific need to nerf. Ideally, the end product should be a game where we still get to feel overpowered, while also still having the most fun the game has to offer (and Warframe has a ton of fun to give).

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

On 2019-10-26 at 6:51 PM, Lost_Cartographer said:

While I agree with the sentiment, there's one problem:  Public play.  One can't control that someone else is bringing along a stacked Ember Prime to a kuva siphon run and bullet jumping through the mission ASAP while her 4 passively turns everything into charcoal.  You know... the type of player that SHOULD be playing solo because clearly the other peeps aren't even necessary, but isn't.

Oh hey that’s me!

My other 3 teammates are most of the time unnecessary except as revive and and spawner bots but I genuinely like playing the game with other people 

I don’t play this game because it’s single player and I want the illusion of playing with a team when the game doesn’t push me hard enough(go away eidolons) to consider a pre-made team to be effective

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2019-10-26 at 11:59 AM, peterc3 said:

If DE makes something that behind the scenes that halves your mods effectiveness, nobody would bat an eye.

If you ask the players to do it themselves, they are being personally attacked by the incompetent devs.

This.

On 2019-10-26 at 2:16 PM, DeathDweller said:

There's a difference between skill difficulty and number difficulty.Having to shoot, slash, press 4  3 times instead of 1 doesn't change much in my book.

This too. "Let's just turn every enemy into a gigantic bullet sponge that can 1 shot you" doesn't automatically mean the game would be more "fun".

On 2019-10-26 at 3:03 PM, belanya said:

Are you happy that you ll never feel any kind of progression in the game? Are you happy that everything you ll get ll be useless in a way or another?

I dont understand people like you...

Becoming more powerful, getting access to more and more frames and weapons, and having more gameplay options IS the progression. I dont understand people like you.

On 2019-10-26 at 3:37 PM, MagPrime said:

People who don't play to the meta wholeheartedly aren't the ones complaining about being too powerful.  Personally, Warframe isn't a game that supports meta only playstyles and people who complain about being too powerful don't get that.  

 

 

Agreed.

On 2019-10-26 at 4:51 PM, Lost_Cartographer said:

While I agree with the sentiment, there's one problem:  Public play.  One can't control that someone else is bringing along a stacked Ember Prime to a kuva siphon run and bullet jumping through the mission ASAP while her 4 passively turns everything into charcoal.  You know... the type of player that SHOULD be playing solo because clearly the other peeps aren't even necessary, but isn't.

So while I'm happy to nerf myself because frankly, a Plinx/Magnus/Lex/Vasto with ~15-20 round magazine and a high RoF is pretty dang cool, I'd like to join a public game and not be rendered tileset decoration by a try hard min-maxer acting like hitting their WASD keys and shooting things is somehow an inconvenience in the Third Person SHOOTER that is Warframe, instead of, y'know... the point.  

So I'm going to keep pushing for energy availability to reigned in, as that's largely what's enabling most of the power-gaming behaviors like above in the first place.

I dont think energy reworking is a good idea. That could very easily end up tanking a lot of frames and or making players feel like they HAVE to use certain builds to compensate. I agree though, that if a frame is so efficient that other players cant get much involvement with the enemies maybe they should be looked at.

On 2019-10-26 at 6:05 PM, Raqiya said:

In a running race do you think you should have to run backwards against the opposition to feel challenged and have a satisfying race? Or would you rather sprint forwards giving it your all against a challenging opposition? Which do you think is more satisfying?

False dichotomy, for one, it isnt an either or proposition. Second, i wouldn't get a Corvette, add twin turbos, ad nitrous oxide, replace the exhaust, replace the air intake system, put in  racing chip, and do whatever else people who love fast cars and have thousands of dollars to throw at car upgrades do, and then turn around and complain when I smoke the guy driving a Honda civic.

On 2019-10-26 at 6:31 PM, DeMonkey said:

You have to be deliberately ignoring the reasons here.

If DE tying my hands behind my back is analogous with an across the board nerf to everything I own, and thus the game becomes more challenging, everything I own is still useful. Everything I've earned has a place, and there is still value in earning more.

This is a good thing.

If I tie my own hands behind my back and stop myself using certain items, then they lose value.

Why bother farming more defensive stuff? I'm already immortal. More damage? Bah, my staff one shots pretty much everything that isn't in an endurance run. Feeling too tanky? My Arcane Guardian loses value, because I 'stop' using it.

Or I would stop, but I won't, because gimping myself is a stupid thing to do and I'd rather play something that doesn't require it to be enjoyable.

Obviously it's never that simple, an across the board nerf does not immediately result in a better game, just as an across the board buff doesn't. It would take months of work from everyone, but you're only fooling yourself if you believe it's the same thing as us just denying ourselves a bit of power.

Who says everything in the game has to be equal to have a place?

On 2019-10-26 at 7:18 PM, DrakeWurrum said:

You're getting this very wrong.

The game allows us, and encourages us, to build up power and get as powerful as we can. The game constantly rewards us with things that increase our power.

We should feel good about that. We shouldn't have to actively refuse to get more powerful to have challenge. The game should provide us with more challenge to match our increasing power.

If players have to arbitrarily limit themselves rather than making use of the game's systems for improving your character, then the game is designed badly. The choice to be powerful or weak is not a choice.

It makes literally NO sense to gimp yourself just so that you can feel challenged while pursuing rewards that make you powerful, only to not make yourself more powerful.

^this

Yeah and heres the problem. If "gimping yourself just to get a challenge while pursuing rewards that make you powerful" doesn't make any sense, than how in the name of christ does having the developer gimp you just so you can "have a challenge" getting rewards that DONT make you that powerful (because they nerfed the power ceiling remember?) Make sense?

On 2019-10-26 at 9:51 PM, Kimimoto said:

Not even using top tier loadouts, the game isn't challenging. Sorry you're 100% wrong here. No amount of discussion or whiteknights giving you upvotes will change that.

Not an argument.

On 2019-10-27 at 12:55 AM, Marvelous_A said:

TLDR: CoOp gAMe dOeSn'T nEed BaLAncE

Not an argument either. Also not what I said.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

18 hours ago, zruncho said:

yoU neED mAke YoUr owN fUn. That's what op is essentially saying. 

This is an argument I always hear from fanboys of S#&$ games. Fallout 76 were spamming this, release No man's sky was the same. 

Let me tell you a secret OP - If the game was in a good place I wouldn't need to make my own fun.

Whenever people start spouting this bullS#&$ argument I know for a fact that things are going downhill. 

 

Thanks for such a civil, constructive point.

 

A) if you hate warframe that much you're welcome to go play a different game. I hear fortnite is free.

 

B) read A again.

[DeMonkey]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Who says everything in the game has to be equal to have a place?

Not me?

Also what? This has no relevance to what I said.

[Kimimoto]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Not an argument.

You're right, because there is no argument, I don't think you understood that
 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Kimimoto

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Late to the party but fully agreed. 

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

On 2019-10-26 at 10:30 AM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

the community can't have it both ways. People love demanding more, new content with good rewards but at the same time people love screaming about power creep. So anything added to the game has to be good or it's a "useless reward" but if it's actually good than its "more power creep".

Yup.

They don't think about how long it took then to achieve enough power to blow through the game. Nor think about how long it will take new players to do the same. 

They don't want to play solo, join a clan to play with or recruit a squad.They want to be powerful in a public squad but not out powered by a random player who is "using the meta weapon with riven" or "meta frame with unlimited energy" taking all the kills.

They want hard content with great rewards but not have enemies with mechanics like immunity, high armor or 1 shot kill hits.

If DE made a separate mode where the whole game was like ESO mixed with Nightmare, no rivens or focus schools allowed, no gear items, players would still find something to complain about. 

I even see people swear by other games. As soon as you look on those forums , you see the same complaints about that game and how Warframe is better. 

DE caters to the many. As any good game should. When the challenge or interest dies out, move on to another game.

[Fl_3]

I agree with op.

This is why none of my frames use Umbral forma, I simply do not need the added boost they give me to run those 4 hour survival missions. I did it without them before Sacrifice and I've continued to do it without them since.

Warframe has not increased in difficulty before or after their introduction, so I see no need for them, but I wouldn't tell other people not to use them if they think they do.

It's all down to personal choice.

[Raikh]

Am 28.10.2019 um 14:18 schrieb Corvid:

Wasn't even the Orb. Terra Corpus at launch had higher base stats which meant they scaled much quicker than any other enemy in the game.

DE even added in the Elite Terra Corpus, which have similar stats and scaling to the originals, but it seems that that wasn't enough to stop the complaints about the nerf.

Good to know. I would still assume that a lot of the complaints about the enemies (pre-nerf) had to do with the placement of Fortuna. It lured so many players in who don't have decent gear and tbh till you can build proper warframe builds with corrupted and primed mods and till you have storng weapons with the according mods upgraded players are far from overpowering the starchart. There is such a huge insurmountable discrepancy in power between mid-starchart and post-starchart players who have already grinded out mods and gear.

 

vor 8 Stunden schrieb (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA:

This too. "Let's just turn every enemy into a gigantic bullet sponge that can 1 shot you" doesn't automatically mean the game would be more "fun".

Agreeing with especially the oneshot part. But that also comes with issues, since some Warframes have the capability to get 50k + EHP while others sit at sub 5k even if you build them to be tanky with stuff like Quick Thinking + Primed Flow combos. So its hard to figure out where damage of enemies should be. An enemy dangerous to a tanky frame is easily deleting the squishies and damage tuned for squishies is completely irrelevant to tanks.

Enemies also shouldn't be sponges, agreed. But there is merit in them being able to take a few hits, so people can notice the efficiency and general effectivity of their build and weapons. RIght now I can forma a weapon, run with like 4-5 mods on the unranked weapon into a Sortie and don't really notice a difference in killspeed because the overkill is just so high.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA:

Becoming more powerful, getting access to more and more frames and weapons, and having more gameplay options IS the progression. I dont understand people like you.

The irony is that if there is no place for the new power to go, then its not progression. You don't get more efficient or effectively stronger if you instead of oneshotting an enemy go to oneshotting an enemy for twice their health. There is a lot of "horizontal" progression which is progression in diversity like gathering all the different warframes and the multitude of high-end weaponry, which is one of the best aspects of WF. I would still argue it lacks support of a place for that excess power to go that isn't locked behind hours of endless missions.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Phantom Clip:

If DE made a separate mode where the whole game was like ESO mixed with Nightmare, no rivens or focus schools allowed, no gear items, players would still find something to complain about. 

The usual endgame player doesn't want their power to be stripped away. They want to use that power on something that its worth using on. Restricting access to parts of the core gameplay is artifical difficulty and in the vast majority of cases simply bad game design. It isn't as much about the difficulty as in it should be neckbreakingly hard for the sake of being hard. There should be a space where all that power progression has a use and it only has a use if enemies don't evaporize on sight.

It also simply discriminates against caster frames. A meta where only your weapon matters is a meta where tanks rule and buffers rule. Lets just all only play Chroma, Rhino and Inaros, maybe Grendel once he is out. The game has such a wide diversity of powers that taking a specifc aspect of gameplay away just makes some Warframes obsolete while others don't even get weaker in the slightest and thus simply reduces diversity while the difficulty is still the same for those unaffected.

Most Boss fights, ESO and Arbitrations are so mediocre to downright terrible exactly because of that reason.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

 There should be a space where all that power progression has a use and it only has a use if enemies don't evaporize on sight.

The problem is this doesn't exist in any game because it cannot exist. I guarantee no one has any examples of games that have done this effectively or ideas of how to accomplish this currently. 

No matter what is done, you can't blend gameplay to match end game players, newbies and casuals players in the same content and make everyone happy. 

The simple truth is you cannot test your upgraded gear on the same content you played to get the gear.

Endgame content MUST have separations of difficulty for higher levels of players.   

That's why games have endless modes with increasing difficulty or easy-normal-hard-insane modes with almost impossible challenges.

[Raikh]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Phantom Clip:

The problem is this doesn't exist in any game because it cannot exist. I guarantee no one has any examples of games that have done this effectively or ideas of how to accomplish this currently. 

No matter what is done, you can't blend gameplay to match end game players, newbies and casuals players in the same content and make everyone happy. 

The simple truth is you cannot test your upgraded gear on the same content you played to get the gear.

Endgame content MUST have separations of difficulty for higher levels of players.   

That's why games have endless modes with increasing difficulty or easy-normal-hard-insane modes with almost impossible challenges.

PoE, Diablo 3, Monster Hunter, Dark Souls, World of Warcraft just to name a few. There are plenty of games that manage to offer content for players who already have high end gear in different shapes and forms.

The point is also not to change the difficulty of existing content, but to add content that offers a space for high end gear to be useful. Completely changing the starchart would obviously cause problems for players who are actively progressing it and making ti ahrder for them makes no sense.
The problem with WF is that our power steadily increases while the content stays the same difficulty and we have outgrown the content so much that its starting to get difficult to even excerise the power of the stuff we have because we are dealing with overkill increases and not an increase in efficiency.

We even have regressed on the difficulty of content since the introduction of the relic system which disincentivized endurance runs, as the value of a relic is fixed compared to a tower key which was variable for endless missions.

I simply like to add that I believe the scaling/numbers in the game are so busted that it causes issues even trying to establish a healthy endgame because damag can be stacked so high that basically anything can be oneshot. However reigning that in shouldn't mean changing the difficulty of the existing game.

 

[SerphV]

I played this game for many years...

and how I tried to keep the fun alive is that I usually sort my weapons and frames by USAGE... and try to pick those at the bottom...

Its like playing the same game with diff mechanics~

its loads of fun too!

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2019-10-28 at 11:54 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Yeah and heres the problem. If "gimping yourself just to get a challenge while pursuing rewards that make you powerful" doesn't make any sense, than how in the name of christ does having the developer gimp you just so you can "have a challenge" getting rewards that DONT make you that powerful (because they nerfed the power ceiling remember?) Make sense?

And what nerf are you being salty about, exactly?