(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback

[Zaratul.96]

2 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

1. Blood Rush, this is not dead, ignore everyone that says so. The reason for that is because you scale your multiplier so fast the reduction to blood rush means nothing. Blood Rush is still viable for lots of weapons. The only downside I see in this is heavy weapons cannot keep up with quick melee weapons due to the combo counter.

Well it isn t "dead" but it still got a nerf, since it scales with the base crit now instead of the overall crit. That means that basically all +cc riven and +cc mods are more or less useless since blood rush won t scale with that crit boost.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Loec61

[VCDLucario43]

I don't find the option to activate manual blocking

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2019-10-31 at 2:12 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

initially it did the stacking on final damage, which, as you know from previous changes, we have been trying to move away from.

Don't move away from separate multipliers. They're the only thing that causes significant impact and feel with build diversity. Making everything scale on the same multiplier will make everything feel so dull.

Don't limit the creativity of your players. If you want to limit players, find a gameplay method to fight us. Don't directly fight us in your game

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

14 hours ago, Torunuir said:

While this opinion appears to be statistically unpopular among the forum warriors, I think that this update is a very good step in the right direction.

Since the update, I've dedicated much of my playtime to creating spreadsheets and conducing Simulacrum tests to see if the "OMG MY XYZ GOT NERFED" was really an accurate representation of reality. In the desire to remain succinct, I have concluded the following: 1) as a whole, melee damage and range appears to have gone up as a result of the changes in the majority of cases, even in that of the polearm tests I accomplished.

However, 2) most of the scaling is done through the base damage of heavy attacks, and with Amalgam Organ Shatter and Killing Blow, heavy attacks with extreme base damage are now easily achievable and also spammable on most melees. In extreme outlier cases, heavy attacks that deal eye-boggling numbers occur multiple times a second with little to no prepping the mobs.

3) With twice the base damage in many cases, the average performance of builds that run CO has also gone up, even without running armor strip as appropriate, making it such that mobs with nearly 100% armor DR are two-shottable with around three status (viral, electric, radiation is what I used for that sim), which appears on my spreadsheets and in reality as greatly overtuned. In one extreme case, I found that the DPS difference between a custom zaw with an average riven last patch now does 15.3x the DPS with heavy attacks as opposed to light attacks with one crit tier and zero status applications for the CO that it runs (essentially running it at 7 mods but yellow crit).

Therefore, while 4) I have found that the numbers for the previous best abuse cases (CO + Blood Rush with Base Damage/High Base Crit Chance/One Crit Multiplier mod) are numerically similar to the ones this patch, 5) heavy attacks vastly exceed those abuse case numbers AND are even easier to achieve at a higher level of play. In practice, I found it very obvious that melee damage in both low levels and in endless has gone up, giving at least me proof that the changes on paper are similar to the ones in practice.

6) I originally wasn't going to include this, but there are a few bugs with mods that when fixed will make people feel better about this patch. I recall my blood rush tests acting buggy, as if it only scaled off of base crit, however, I'm not sure if I misinterpreted the test or whether it was one of those simulacrum only bugs (like the Naramon combo perk not functioning properly).

I'd be interested to discuss my formulas/strategies with those interested in having a discussion and who do not lead with "you're an idiot; my stuff is nerfed into the ground," so send me a DM if you are interested and meet that criteria 😉

I was not expecting to be impressed with the results I've seen this patch, and while there are a small number of under the hood changes I personally would make to make the system feel smoother, it does appear that this is a step in the game health direction. So, thanks to all those who put in hard work to make this happen, and I as a relatively happy player will enjoy exploring the Old Blood as these changes evolve.

You, my friend, are a truly wise man who thinks and makes his research before going on a ranting rampage. 

[Anthraxicus]

As expected, Heavy Attacks are a complete waste of time and effort. I know you guys believe this kind of "variety" is good, but it is just not practical during normal gameplay. Wasting the combo counter on these attacks is counter productive. 
I was actually expecting the combo counter to be completely gone, because we already had to mod many things to actually be able to keep our combo going, but seeing as it just got nerfed hard in favor of a useless attack that nobody in their right mind will actually make use of, then I suggest you go back to the old combo counter. As a matter of fact, aside from the fact that combo counter depleted completely after just mere 3 seconds by default, the system was fine and could deal with high level content. 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

DE,

I am a long time player and was an advocate of the game. I have been offline on my main for a while, killing to play again, because there's one thing this game had that no other doesn't. This game had some of the most interesting and diverse mechanics. The level of detail and optimization was splendid for a mathematical guy like myself. I bought multiple prime accesses to keep up when my schedule couldn't, and there's one thing keeping me from buying more, being punished for my innovation and creativity. Nerfing stuff isn't helping, but it's bearable and necessary most of the time. But unbalancing everything so radically without even an opinion from your own Design Council is just more doubt for me.

It is breaking my heart seeing some of the most unique mechanics in the game being taken away. These mechanics are what made this game unique and not another simple hybrid game. I'll outline the signs of this direction I've seen.

Pure elemental weapons may seem off to you, but they're some of the most unique weapons in the game. Twin basolk and ninkondi were the last (I think). They don't quite have the ips diversity that your build goes for, but they are unique. Main reason? Status rates. Getting pure gas or radiation on twin basolk was a really cool feature. It made building so fun and gameplay even better. I am not a fan of everything becoming "ips+elemental", because I could just get a pure ips weapon and put the elemental mods on. It is ruining the diversity of weapons.

I am on board with CO changes, but I am not a fan of 

Differentiation of damage buffs is what makes the game so interesting. Condition overload IMO, would've been better off as a additively stacking final damage buff (1 + .6 × # of status effects). Even if you don't believe that for Condition overload, at least consider this for anything else you've had in mind. Making all buffs work on base damage is boring and cripples creativity and severely increases the competition for which frame to use.

You may think "oh that's what we want, diversity". Competition is not diversity. Diversity would be every damage buff being the same amount, same aspects, same everything. How exciting is that? Competition is temporary. Once the strongest is sorted out, the rest will be made useless. This is why it's important for everyone to have their own unique aspect, so that they're not rendered useless or obsolete.

I urge you to focus on the enemies of the game vs us as players, because this "player innovation vs developers" situation isn't making for good gameplay. Please DE, stop punishing me for being creative and innovative.

QFT.

From what I’m seeing in multiple posts and videos regarding Condition Overload, I feel that we need to go back to the drawing board on the algorithm. Making it into a mod that is additive to Primed Pressure Point was not the best design choice to make, and builds have suffered because of it. Even a revisit back to the original algorithm and applying a lower melee multiplier would be in better strides than what the current PC patch has.

Right now, players are saying that Primed/Pressure Point is gutted, status melee is gutted, the only build to make is running a crit build (which only works off of base crit). How is this situation any different from the melee system from 3-4 years ago before Acolyte mods were a thing?

Please reconsider, DE. Please revisit some of the changes you made in the present patch and take a look at the critical feedback that players have been voicing in these feedback threads.

[Arkandae]

il y a 34 minutes, Anthraxicus a dit :

As expected, Heavy Attacks are a complete waste of time and effort. I know you guys believe this kind of "variety" is good, but it is just not practical during normal gameplay. Wasting the combo counter on these attacks is counter productive. 
I was actually expecting the combo counter to be completely gone, because we already had to mod many things to actually be able to keep our combo going, but seeing as it just got nerfed hard in favor of a useless attack that nobody in their right mind will actually make use of, then I suggest you go back to the old combo counter. As a matter of fact, aside from the fact that combo counter depleted completely after just mere 3 seconds by default, the system was fine and could deal with high level content. 

Not useless but not often usefull. In arbitration disruption, I wouldn't be surprised if the meta becomes killing blow+zenurik. Below is a screenshot of a heavy attack on a lvl 165 heavy gunner without killing blow and one status effect for CO when hitting (I don't know if the bonus is applied before or after the hit), and the combo counter goes up really fast with that setup

[Mynex]

I am a atlas main, and as someone who used to rely on the combo counter i cant even play the game anymore, i used venka as my stat stick for the passive .75 increase so i could auctally do damage,  now with the new system the venkas passive is nonexistent and my stat stick is now useless, in addition with the 25% increase rate from the old system and the cap of a X12 multiplier..... which is equivalent to a X3 of the old system, this is no where near enough damage for me to auctally use.  Sure i look cool now with these flashy new stances and the fact i can hold my weapons again, but if i can't kill anything then whats the point

[Huanthus]

Glaive's combos seem to bee cool and all but Heavy attacks doesnt seem to be working as intended on glaives since HA= throw the combo counter is not used up on Heavy attacks  the animations are fluid and cool and it feels right  doing melee with glaives but weapons like orvius lost its flavor, i've tried doing all kinds of throws with the weapon but the signature feature of the orvius ( that is lifting enemies on chanelled throws) is missing, please fix this ASAP.

[Huanthus]

10 minutes ago, Mynex said:

I am a atlas main, and as someone who used to rely on the combo counter i cant even play the game anymore, i used venka as my stat stick for the passive .75 increase so i could auctally do damage,  now with the new system the venkas passive is nonexistent and my stat stick is now useless, in addition with the 25% increase rate from the old system and the cap of a X12 multiplier..... which is equivalent to a X3 of the old system, this is no where near enough damage for me to auctally use.  Sure i look cool now with these flashy new stances and the fact i can hold my weapons again, but if i can't kill anything then whats the point

In my humble opinion stat stick warframes such as Gara, Atlas should have a modeable semi-exalted weapon, but I agree that many weapons  that had really cool quirks such as the custom multiplier on the venka or the lift execution on the  Orvius got lost after this update

[Dragazer]

Condition overload stacking with itself additively was a fair change. However, making it stack additive with pressure point and other base damage mods was a terrible decision. This makes all other base dmg bonuses (rivens, weapon augments, primed pressure point, Chroma vex armor) irrelevant as any other dmg mod like crit or elementals now provide better bonuses always because those provide multiplicative bonuses to your base dmg.

Leave CO to additive stack with itself, and change it back to multiplying with base dmg mods/buffs

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

7 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Condition overload stacking with itself additively was a fair change. However, making it stack additive with pressure point and other base damage mods was a terrible decision. This makes all other base dmg bonuses (rivens, weapon augments, primed pressure point, Chroma vex armor) irrelevant as any other dmg mod like crit or elementals now provide better bonuses always because those provide multiplicative bonuses to your base dmg.

Leave CO to additive stack with itself, and change it back to multiplying with base dmg mods/buffs

Crit Chance mods and Maiming Strike got hit too. More importantly Crit Chance mods in general. Blood Rush and Gladiator set mods only affect the base crit chance of the weapon used, and I believe any crit chance applied via modding is just tacked on at the end. Therefore, even crit chance has suffered.

[PraetorGix]

[DE] Steve, remember in the devstream when you asked for us to play the melee update before saying it sucks? OK, I played it, and now I can say it sucks.

You made the most fundamental melee mod, Pressure point, almost useless compared to Condi Overload. Not making CO feed off of itself is one thing, but making those mods additive was a bad solution. The stacks system for CO was not a bad idea, it was just bad implementation: 3 stacks was too little too low. In the process you nerfed every Riven we worked hard for that contains melee damage and CC.

Gunblades, especially the beloved Redeemer Prime, are trash now. The new heavy attack mechanic breaks the flow that's supposed to be one of the goals of this update, and needing to deplete your combo to perform the attack (that's also for even less convenience removed from the hold E keybind) feels wrong, overall you killed the way we used gunblades.

Blood Rush, it helps with weapons that have low CC, but red crits are a myth now. Whenever I get to finally red crit, the damage is worse than before. I just don't understand the reasoning behind this. If you wanted to buff low CC weapons, you... well, you change the CC of the weapon and be done with it, no need to nerf Blood rush for that. The nerfing of spin2win was enough, why should I be punished for reaching red crits when I'm doing it with normal combos and moves?

Range, I never personally used much range mods but I like to use physically long weapons like staves and expect them to have actual reach. That seems nerfed as well and from what I see, using a slot on a range mod is useless now.

In short, these changes are leaving melee in a worse state than before. Some overpowered things needed to go? OK, but for the life of me I don't get why you felt the need to fix what wasn't broken along the way. Absolutely not happy with this.

[Anthraxicus]

2 hours ago, Arkandae said:

Not useless but not often usefull. In arbitration disruption, I wouldn't be surprised if the meta becomes killing blow+zenurik. Below is a screenshot of a heavy attack on a lvl 165 heavy gunner without killing blow and one status effect for CO when hitting (I don't know if the bonus is applied before or after the hit), and the combo counter goes up really fast with that setup

I don't particularly like Simulacrum, as it doesn't reflect the gameplay.

[IntoTheVoidDied]

Maybe this isn't the exact place since it's titled melee 2.0 and not The Old Blood as a whole but the Kuva Ogris is HORRIBLE. Just comparing the stats should show why. It does almost no damage, even with the bonus elemental damage gained from the Kuva Lich. Ironically, the description says that it does more damage than the Ogris, while at base pre-elemental boost doing barely over half of the original's damage, and the elemental boost doing very little to catch it up.

Buffing the status also did not change much since it already had 30%, though it did increase flexibility, even if the damage was on par with the original Ogris.

On testing the weapon as well, the semi-automatic trigger and slightly reduced reload time does not make it fire faster since the clip was almost cut in half.

[Anthraxicus]

1 hour ago, Mynex said:

I am a atlas main, and as someone who used to rely on the combo counter i cant even play the game anymore, i used venka as my stat stick for the passive .75 increase so i could auctally do damage,  now with the new system the venkas passive is nonexistent and my stat stick is now useless, in addition with the 25% increase rate from the old system and the cap of a X12 multiplier..... which is equivalent to a X3 of the old system, this is no where near enough damage for me to auctally use.  Sure i look cool now with these flashy new stances and the fact i can hold my weapons again, but if i can't kill anything then whats the point

Now that you've mentioned it, I went to see how my Gara performed, and she took a massive hit with my stat stick. My DoT went from nearly 40k damage per cast down to 23k. It sucks.

[VoadorHolandes]

Playing it up a bit more, I can certainly see why the update was needed. I haven't found myself using heavy attacks nor the lifting mechanics though.

I think there are four main issues that could be solved in a fashion that would be best for everyone:

The problem with the new Blood Rush is that it scales with base CC. It undermines other CC mods and causes havoc with most established builds before the patch. As it stands, since orange and red criticals scales poorly (they are more unreliable on melee than, say,  on automatic weapons), BR is mostly a crutch that allows you to achieve yellow or orange crits. So, what happens is that BR crowds out other CC mods and high crit base weapons. CD becomes a much better option and BR brings middling base CC weapons to the same ballpark as the higher ones. I think it would please most people to have it scale with overall CC and for tradeoff to reduce the bonus multiplier per combo even further. It would bring scalability to CC (mods and rivens) and allow for a broader amount of builds).

I think the Combo Curve should be the inverse of what it is. It should be easier to stack from the beggining, harder as it goes on. It would make Initial combo mods and weapons very viable; it would give incentives to use heavies more often. Would make high end BR more challenging and bring it in line with what it was. It would make melee more reliable.

Heavies should not give only more damage but have more clearing power and range. Heavies shouldn't use all the combo counter, it should not use any at all if you whiff the blow.

Concerning CO, for those that used it before, the thrill was in making a build that would actively stack a varied and large amount of stats on enemies. As it stands, CO can be maxed pretty much passively and it has crowded out PP. CO should be multiplicative. It thus should give a lesser bonus multiplier. It also should not give the same bonus multiplier everytime, it should give increasing increments on damage, say at 4 status, then diminishing returns (a mock up would be: 30%/1, 80%/2, 150%/3, 250%/4, 300%/5, 320%/6...). 

[Arkandae]

il y a 44 minutes, Anthraxicus a dit :

I don't particularly like Simulacrum, as it doesn't reflect the gameplay.

I agree. in missions, you can get buffed a lot more and ennemies can get debuffed a lot more.

[ZarakkiZenn]

Random findings that will get lost in the sea of feedback...

Status seems to be applied after the hit. Intuitive, yes, but not how it used to work. Not sure this is intentional.

Can confirm this with Healing Return: it used to work even if it was a one hit kill. It doesn't anymore. I know this for a fact.

If it wasn't intentional, then it's also an unintended nerf to Condition Overload.

[ZarakkiZenn]

Forgot to mentioned: I happened to level an unguilded Zaw in Hydron and forgot to put any mods in it. To my surprise, it was handling level 40 greener with no issue. No Corrosive Projection in the squad, that was my first thought. Conclusion:

"What's a good weapon for mr X?" - Broken War. Get Broken War, put no mods in it, clear the star chart. Perhaps scaling damage off combo multiplier wasn't such a bad idea after all.

For the sake of contrast: as I newbie, all I cared about was mastery and slots, so I would level and sell every weapon with few exceptions. I happened to find myself in Uranus, having to do the "clear 3 missions with only melee equipped" with a brand new melee with no mods. It was close to impossible. I literally had to slam attack and ground finisher every enemy.

[TeaHawk]

My polearm is now slow and S#&$ty. Heavy attacks are lame slow and ugly. Also they are patently useless. It completely ruined all fun I had. Not to mention the range. I've put so much effort at maxing range for my lovely polearm. It was beautiful. It was fast. It was a real storm. I found it amazing to dash with gauss and clear a bunch of enemies without even stopping. Now it's trash and painful to use.

 

Thankfully I've got Destiny 2.

Edited November 2, 2019 by TeaHawk

[D.G.N.27]

From what I have played, The new melee combos are awesome but it is almost 95% useless against lvl 140+

Testing on the simulacron on 165lvl Corrupted Gunners and Bombards, most of my really good weapons (Paracesis, Sigma and Octantis, Plague Zaw, and the Redemeer prime), only one did well and the others did almost nothing, I think it is because Condition Overload was nerfed.

If you want us to use melee weapons on high level, you need to revert the changes on Condition Overload or change the scaling of the armored enemies.

Maybe not even revert the changes on Condition Overload, but change it to something like "multiply damage per status ON armored enemies" or "ignore armor per status", the new melee feels really good but I simply cannot use it on high level missions / long endurance runs

 

excuse my poor english.

[Sword0fLotus]

Range buff is overkill.

I appreciate it, we definitely could have used some but 1 -> 2,7 is too much.

This update caused lack of mobility in melee and having ethereal range where enemies are cut without impact is not the fun way to go.

[Torunuil]

4 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

You, my friend, are a truly wise man who thinks and makes his research before going on a ranting rampage. 

Thanks, I appreciate you 🙂

[Maka.Bones]

I'm indifferent to C.O. being additive, instead of multiplicative... but

 I do think that C.O. shouldn't have any max cap limit, if they're gonna make the buffs work additive to P.P. (instead of at the end of the damage equation, like it used to). If players can sustain 4-8 status procs on enemies, then they deserve to get a 480-960% additive* damage bonus to their status weapons. 

 

>Or they could've kept it working the same as it used to, but lower the buff to 50%, and THEN implement the max 3 stack bonus.... or give it diminishing returns instead of giving it a max stack bonus (as long as it's multiplicative, to the total damage). 

 

Players shouldn't be punished for their  resourcefulness, creativity, or ingenuity. I don't use C.O. often, and i don't use zaws often, so i'm honestly not saying this out of personal bias: If DE didn't want the Plague Kiprah to be an overly abused meta, maybe just make the other weapons better. Or make better crit build mods (instead of nerfing blood rush, and C.O.)

Just make stronger enemies, and increase player warframes' max HP/armor if you want to fix the scaling/instakill problems with enemies. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Maka.Bones