How Can We Fix Nukers?

[Veridian]

The wild forums, where make belief equals facts.

Everyone leave when seing a nuke? Where? In ESO, where they're all hoping to leech or in some defense mission, where half are semi-afk, just collecting loot?

Inb4 someone makes up something like "It's because you've nuked everything!", I've actively been called to up my game and nuke more in game, never the opposite.

Two posts above me someone even said Saryn nuked a Lich. So much BS. Saryn's spores reset on the Lich and Miasma doesn't even work, even at lvl 1 her skills do nothing.

The "fix" is simple, play anything other than Inaros or Rhino when the enemies grow above lvl 50.

There are 42 frames in the game, 19 of those CAN have a nuke build. The problem is playing only tank frames and actually believing you deserve to also do equal damage to nukes.

Ultimately you can also play one, but let me guess: "I don't like to play this way". I completely agree then, we can't allow others having fun in a way we don't like, do we?

In that case, I'd also vote for capping HP at 1k and armor at 500, stealth having 45 sec cd, weapons overheating and every skill having diminishing returns if cast within 10 sec.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Ver1dian

[ILOHARTA]

wanna know how to really fix Saryn? Add ponds and mineral nodes to Hydron, so while Saryn nukes the map others can collect materials...

[(PSN)NeunDrachen]

When is killing things a bad thing tho? Do you like wasting time in a mission to inflate yer ego killing enemies one by one? 

 

Cc frames have a purpose with a nuker in the party and its not to kill things. You have frames like khora or nekros for drops, vauban or ember for armor strip, etc.

Support frames have no reason to kill things either unless it relates to their abilities like harrow.

The only frame type that is uterlly useless with a nuker is tanks but in those cases, their value isnt in team play but surviving the hard fights. Not to mention, how many tank frames have abilities to kill? None? 

Nuke frames exist because killing things fast helps speed up endurance missions, protects objectives and even your team. Saying they need nerfing because they kill too much in a horde shooter is abit dumb.

 

[MPonder]

Don't make Warframe grind more boring than it is.

[FlyingDice]

Nerf the S#&$ out of all of them.

 

That's the only way you're going to rein in nuke builds, but nobody wants to hear that. They all somehow want more challenging content without losing any power when DE have already repeatedly proven unwilling to make standard content that goes much above lv100 enemies.

[Chicken-Biryani]

4 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

Nerf the S#&$ out of all of them.

 

That's the only way you're going to rein in nuke builds, but nobody wants to hear that. They all somehow want more challenging content without losing any power when DE have already repeatedly proven unwilling to make standard content that goes much above lv100 enemies.

I don't want ultra hard content... And many many others don't want it either. We play, because we like the way we have supreme power at times in all its different varieties. If the game becomes your "Remnants of ashes" type of ordeal, I wouldn't be able to enjoy it any longer. Also, it would lose the whole Warframe vibe as I have come to know it by. 

[No1NParticular31]

9 hours ago, MPonder said:

Don't make Warframe grind more boring than it is.

Exactly. This isn't a game of do one hard thing once to get a reward. It's a game of do one easy thing 20, maybe 100, or maybe even 1000 times to get the reward. Anything that makes that faster is better IMHO. If I am having to do the same thing over and over and over trying to beat the RNG, then I want to be able to do each iteration fast.

[Matheoryon]

Nukers are not hard, you just need to know how to work with them. If anything we need better nukers.

[kwlingo]

14 hours ago, FlyingDice said:

Nerf the S#&$ out of all of them.

 

That's the only way you're going to rein in nuke builds, but nobody wants to hear that. They all somehow want more challenging content without losing any power when DE have already repeatedly proven unwilling to make standard content that goes much above lv100 enemies.

To be honest some of the best balanced frames are the originals. Even as Mag being a nuker, its only for very low level content, that's why you don't see her in higher level runs nuking because her nuking isnt having enemies fall over from high damage but from synergy with ability and weapons.. Everyone else from the start just didn't destroy the entire maps with a single tap of a button.

 

14 hours ago, --C--Nehra said:

I don't want ultra hard content... And many many others don't want it either. We play, because we like the way we have supreme power at times in all its different varieties. If the game becomes your "Remnants of ashes" type of ordeal, I wouldn't be able to enjoy it any longer. Also, it would lose the whole Warframe vibe as I have come to know it by. 

We can have more than just easy content. Cater to all audience. Just saw this interview on youtube from a long time content creator for Warframe and he even asked the hard question to Megan in concerns of enemy scaling or getting more difficult on the level the enemies. She had troubles answering the question but its definitely on DE's minds. Have easy content for farming but harder content from those who are already 100% on MR and nothing else to farm but rivens and new Lich weapon stats. Check it out on Youtube.

Warframe: Mineta, U26, Marathons & more - An Interview With DE Megan

Edited November 11, 2019 by kwlingo

[Fire2box]

First it's nuke frames. When Nuke frames are gone (embers world on fire is now 100% gone) it WILL be something else. 

What will it be next? CC that pulls enemies into one spot for easy killing. 

After that? "well their weapon is so much better then mine that they kill 75% alone, the other's get 10% and i get a crumby 5% of kills". 

-----

Nukers aren't broken. What's broken is DE making new players join with Veterans who are so bored, who understand efficiency is the true boss of Warframe. This is why the suggestion, the idea that scaled mission nodes should be a thing. We already got them via the thrall nodes via kuva lich system the only thing we need is 50%-100% extra rewards. Maybe 2 relics instead one on missions like survival or defense as capture missions would be abused. Enemies starting at level 90 or something. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Fire2box

[Yakhul]

Nuking is fine as it is for me. The problem lies in the players themselves. Some players like to use their guns they invested forma and mods on, only to then find a Saryn, Volt, or Equinox, running through the map ahead of everyone, and nuking the entire map. This happens a lot in public matches. It is no fun that you cant even get to field test your weapons if someone else runs ahead of you and kills everything before you can even shoot your gun.

So i guess it depends on the situation. Someone said something about inflating the ego. Well I've experienced some nukers doing exactly that: running ahead of everyone just so that they can get the highest damage on the mission. Same happens in Archwing missions. Now that Empyrean is coming soon, a lot of people are ranking up their archwings, but what i have seen is just the same: people running ahead of everyone else just to get the kills. There is something called shared affinity, and if they fly 5000 meters away from the rest just to have the kill on the enemies, the affinity they get is lower than the affinity they could get by sticking together.

Another instance where i have experience nuking going too far, is on interception missions, where theres gonna be that one person always, whos gonna run from node to node, killing everything before the person guarding that node can do something. And of course, the node that person is supposed to guard, is always being retaken by the enemy, forcing someone else to leave their node to reclaim that node, as the person in question is too busy inflating his ego by being the one who kills everything and gets the highest damage.

So i guess in the end, at least from my point of view, nuking is fine as long as the player behind the nuking frame is being considerate that others may not enjoy him or her nuking the entire map. Heck there may be new players in the same node trying to do stuff, trying to test their guns and stuff, learn, and they cant because someone is decimating the entire tileset with the press of a button.

Nuking in Warframe doesnt need a fix. The players behind the nuking frame are the ones who need to tone it down a bit depending on the situation. He isnot a nuking frame anymore, but there is a reason why Limbo is hated by almost everyone even after having received a rework to his kit.

[kwlingo]

7 minutes ago, Trapkin said:

Nuking in Warframe doesnt need a fix. The players behind the nuking frame are the ones who need to tone it down a bit depending on the situation. He isnot a nuking frame anymore, but there is a reason why Limbo is hated by almost everyone even after having received a rework to his kit.

I agree. I use to be a Limbo Nuker on lower level Defense missions with a max range and strength build. Everyone hated it because none of their abilities or weapons worked if they were cast in or out of rift. Everyone just sat their and in chat typed, "The Limbo Hate is Real" even though the enemies were dying as quick as they were spawning 50m range. So yes the nuking takes away from everyone else's joy of the game. I thought I was doing everyone a favor but really they wanted some interaction in the game play also.

[Jeger_Wulfe]

On 2019-11-07 at 11:06 AM, (PS4)death404 said:

Speak for yourself there, dude. I don't play any nukers myself but am happy to see them in my missions. If it's a defense I am usually speed Nova so am counting on having a nuker in the squad. 

At this point who cares if they have all the skills? My e-peen is still intact.

This. When I was a lowbie, I liked seeing a nuker show up and make my job easy. 

If playing with nukers bothers you, here's a tip: there are only a few farm nodes where upper-level players bring their nukers to level up mastery fodder. (Hint: Stay away from Hydron.) If you stay away from those, you should have no problem.

[Teridax68]

As with the thread on spam/cooldowns, I don't really agree with making everything LoS-based. To start, it's worth mentioning that only some, not all nukers in the game, are considered truly unhealthy for the game, and one of them, Mesa, is LoS-based. The reason she's unhealthy thus isn't because she bypasses line of sight, but that her nuking power is so ridiculously high that she can stand in a room, press 4, and wipe it before her allies can interact much at all, and so on-demand even without her augment. Meanwhile Banshee, a frame with nuking capabilities who also ignores LoS, isn't really unhealthy, and is in fact a pretty solid buffer frame precisely thanks to an ability that is expressly designed to ignore LoS (i.e. Sonar, a pretty healthy ability).

I think there's this general misconception with nukers, and even radial frame abilities in general, that LoS is the be-all and end-all to healthy design, which I think couldn't be further from the truth: as pointed above, kits can be LoS-based and unhealthy, but also healthy while ignoring LoS, so really, we shouldn't be trying to force every problematic nuke into being LoS-oriented, particularly when such attempts have produced fairly poor results so far. Ash's Bladestorm, for example, got nerfed to be LoS-based, and while the ability was less powerful, it also wasn't that much healthier to use, as the optimal strat that arose was simply for Ash to toggle 4, spin the camera around like a maniac, and reactivate the ability for a mass kill. Similarly, Ember's rework made her LoS-oriented, but forgot to make her 4 actually interesting, such that the optimal way to play her is to similarly just twirl round and spam 4 whenever enemies show up until they keel over.

With this in mind, I think it's worth looking at nukes and nukers more comprehensively, so that we can then work out each one's problems (if there are any), and avoid reducing them to the same playstyle: when it comes to the really bad eggs, the issue usually isn't so much that they can kill enemies through walls, but that they can consistently kill enemies in such a way that their allies can't participate. Often, this is because the nuking ability in question doesn't actually require the nuker to participate in any engaging gameplay, but simply has them auto-kill crowds of enemies at a time. Equinox's Maim aura is a good example of this, and as mentioned above, Mesa's Peacemakers also fall into this category simply because of how lazy the damage output is (you just point in a general direction and fire, killing even high-level enemies long before the reticle gets too tight). Behind her math formulas and synergies, Saryn also has the same issue, as the only time her plague runs out is when there are no enemies left to kill. I don't think there is a one-size-fits all solution to all of these frames, and in fact I'd advise against it, because the last thing we need is to homogenize playstyles. Rather, I think each frame's nuking problems stem from distinct quirks in their nukes, which I think deserve to be adjusted in such a way that the frame no longer gets to brainlessly mass-murder enemies, but still remains at least as powerful as they are now.

[kwlingo]

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As with the thread on spam/cooldowns, I don't really agree with making everything LoS-based. To start, it's worth mentioning that only some, not all nukers in the game, are considered truly unhealthy for the game, and one of them, Mesa, is LoS-based. The reason she's unhealthy thus isn't because she bypasses line of sight, but that her nuking power is so ridiculously high that she can stand in a room, press 4, and wipe it before her allies can interact much at all, and so on-demand even without her augment. Meanwhile Banshee, a frame with nuking capabilities who also ignores LoS, isn't really unhealthy, and is in fact a pretty solid buffer frame precisely thanks to an ability that is expressly designed to ignore LoS (i.e. Sonar, a pretty healthy ability).

I think there's this general misconception with nukers, and even radial frame abilities in general, that LoS is the be-all and end-all to healthy design, which I think couldn't be further from the truth: as pointed above, kits can be LoS-based and unhealthy, but also healthy while ignoring LoS, so really, we shouldn't be trying to force every problematic nuke into being LoS-oriented, particularly when such attempts have produced fairly poor results so far. Ash's Bladestorm, for example, got nerfed to be LoS-based, and while the ability was less powerful, it also wasn't that much healthier to use, as the optimal strat that arose was simply for Ash to toggle 4, spin the camera around like a maniac, and reactivate the ability for a mass kill. Similarly, Ember's rework made her LoS-oriented, but forgot to make her 4 actually interesting, such that the optimal way to play her is to similarly just twirl round and spam 4 whenever enemies show up until they keel over.

With this in mind, I think it's worth looking at nukes and nukers more comprehensively, so that we can then work out each one's problems (if there are any), and avoid reducing them to the same playstyle: when it comes to the really bad eggs, the issue usually isn't so much that they can kill enemies through walls, but that they can consistently kill enemies in such a way that their allies can't participate. Often, this is because the nuking ability in question doesn't actually require the nuker to participate in any engaging gameplay, but simply has them auto-kill crowds of enemies at a time. Equinox's Maim aura is a good example of this, and as mentioned above, Mesa's Peacemakers also fall into this category simply because of how lazy the damage output is (you just point in a general direction and fire, killing even high-level enemies long before the reticle gets too tight). Behind her math formulas and synergies, Saryn also has the same issue, as the only time her plague runs out is when there are no enemies left to kill. I don't think there is a one-size-fits all solution to all of these frames, and in fact I'd advise against it, because the last thing we need is to homogenize playstyles. Rather, I think each frame's nuking problems stem from distinct quirks in their nukes, which I think deserve to be adjusted in such a way that the frame no longer gets to brainlessly mass-murder enemies, but still remains at least as powerful as they are now.

This is actually a perfect explanation, I just didn't want to go into all the details. lol The ability to spam and everything melts without real engagement in gameplay feel lost. I love the feeling of nuking but at the same time just not satisfied with how everything died without me trying. This may be due not to the damage output but the range of over 50meters that is applicable to high damage nuking abilities. If the range was reduced and the high damage was more aggressive at attaining, I believe there may be a possible balance. A build out like Guass or new Ember

[Pablo-Diablo]

When I go to level up any crappy MR fodder weapon I always wish for a nuker in a team yet in most cases I become a nuker with a crappy MR fodder weapon myself...

[AltheusV]

Nukers are boring to play alongside, efficiency be damned. That is why everyone leaves after 5 waves of defence missions with a big nuker.

I enjoy the core gameplay of the game and want to engage in it, I can't do that if everything on the map gets killed every 10 seconds by someone pressing 4.

[Jitsuryoku]

Easy (if you wanna break some weapons / frames).

1. Take away power OR AoE from AoE weapons. Weapon can either 1 shot OR have AoE. If it has both, it makes all the weapons that don't have that obsolete.
2. Make nuking skills cost energy per affected target (similar to new ember), but make 1 target cost about 1/3 of current normal skill cost. Frames like Saryn and equinox will probably touch 10s of targets and lose energy in seconds.

[Spharin]

I'm not a fan of nuking myself because i see it as very boring, I might as well be not playing anything at all rather than wasting my time blankly staring at a screen pressing buttons occasionally, when i get a squadmate that's nuking everything instantly when i'm trying to shoot things because I want to actually use my guns, the game gets very boring and it's demotivating. There's nothing I can do about avoiding nukers unless I'd want to repeatedly leave squads or not play online entirely, but that makes many missions far more difficult and mind numbing.

[Nighteyezzz]

A lot of a people really like playing nuke frames and there's a good chance they would lose a lot of players if they change this. I know it sucks to not be able to play the game the way you want, but you do have the option to not play with these frames, with the amount of effort it took to make this thread you could have looked for a clan or group with similar feelings.  
The problem is that you want my option to play the way I want removed, But with a little effort on your side you don't have to deal with them at all 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

Why is this just now an issue? 

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

On 2019-11-07 at 12:51 PM, Hixlysss said:

Warframe is a horde shooter as in we are meant to be killing large groups of enemies so Nukers are kinda...important to the gameplay. That being said, Line of Sight is a thing I noticed with Ember, specifically her 3, that fire pulse doesn't work if the enemy is behind certain terrain which was weird cause her 4 still targets them.

the point is the nuke has gotten out of hand to point where its not a coop anymore when some one pulls out a nuke frame.  

[NotGustavoM]

So...we've reached a point where even dealing damage.... is now a problem.

I...I don't know if I should laugh or cry about this.

[Kerberos-3]

On 2019-11-07 at 11:59 AM, Zelmen said:

1 word. Leechers.

I'm not a fan of this excuse. Far too often have I seen Frosts and the occasional Limbo in defense missions get chewed out by a nuker for "not pulling their weight", despite said nuker massacring every enemy that spawns before they even reach shooting distance. In those instances, "Leeching" is not really the right term, since one player is making it impossible to "Pull your weight", and thus they have zero right to complain if one or more players isn't keeping up in terms of killcount.

[MuscleBob]

To be honest, I think having nukers is a core part of the gameplay; I agree with the people in here saying that. 

And while I do understand the frustration of not being able to play the game, I feel as if most enjoy having a nuker/being the nuke as it makes the workload easier and towards the end of the game, things do start to feel like a chore occasionally. Changing how nukers work would make so many hydron runs and ESO runs infinitely more painful, and I hope DE understands that. 

There's also the issue of focus farming, which would be terrible without nuker frames. I mean, we could always put the focus lens onto our weapons, but that's still really inefficient for focus farming. With the high amounts of focus we need for some of our focus tree upgrades, focus grind would suck. As in, really suck. We literally need 1 million focus to max out some of our focus upgrades. That would definitely be the biggest issue. 

Another thing is, I'm not too sure how a line-of-sight saryn would work. It kinda just ruins her whole "infection" theme if she has to see them for some sort of reworked infection to spread. It'd kill various aspects of the game and not gonna lie, if nukers were reworked I'd probably end up taking a break for a while. 

It's like the melee changes, after the new melee update I barely use it, ironically enough. Anyway, while I understand the issue of not being able to play the game because enemies simply die without you needing to even move a muscle, there'd be even more of an issue if nukers were nerfed or reworked.