Kuva lich weapons should NOT have 40 levels of Mastery

[Oreades]

11 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And therein lies the rub.

It is likely that they could, given time, fix this without much breakage. But it would divert a lot more effort and time expended, and the more time it's around, the more people get 'hurt' (airquotes) by the change, by engaging with the grind, then complaining that the change happened, as has happened oh so many times before.

Changing the requirements to two forma would be faster, easier, and thus get the problem solved much sooner, meaning less backlash.

Except that wouldn't actually solve the problem it would just make the problem less blatant and leaving it as an issue means there is a good chance they're going to end up doubling their efforts later to come in and actually fix the problem. 

Costing more time/effort in the longrun than just correcting the issue the right way in the first place. 

 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

It's fine the way it is. You're just not wanting to take the time to level them up.

[Loza03]

12 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Except that wouldn't actually solve the problem it would just make the problem less blatant and leaving it as an issue means there is a good chance they're going to end up doubling their efforts later to come in and actually fix the problem. 

Costing more time/effort in the longrun than just correcting the issue the right way in the first place. 

 

That claim that they should spend more time to fix the issue entirely is reliant on the idea your system doesn't introduce its own issues, which may in turn need to be addressed. Simply put, your solution could itself require fixing, meaning that the cost is much greater than the benefit received. That's not to say nothing should ever be fixed, but it is to say that statements like 'costing more time to fix the issue entirely' is more rhetoric than reason.

Lich weapons, under this system, are quite likely to need much less forma. They already don't actually need that much. The reason why the current system is so unbearable for lich weapons is because so much forma is unnecessary. Nobody complains about needing to add two forma to a weapon, because that's expected. Five forma is unnecessary. Simply put, a two-forma requirement takes an expected investment for a weapon and gives it more reward. Instead of injecting more grind into a weapon, it increases the value of said grind.

However, removing that forma-ing element entirely means it is quite possible for several lich weapons to require no forma whatsoever, which takes out the grind entirely. Which sounds great and lovely until you remember that the game is, at the end of the day, a free to play game which means that the economy must be balanced. Balance is not just giving the players everything they want.

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

Meh. At this point, I only consider a weapon Forma’d once you’re up to five. I’m only interested in the Akstabak anyways, so it’s no biggie to me.

[Oreades]

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That claim that they should spend more time to fix the issue entirely is reliant on the idea your system doesn't introduce its own issues, which may in turn need to be addressed. Simply put, your solution could itself require fixing, meaning that the cost is much greater than the benefit received. That's not to say nothing should ever be fixed, but it is to say that statements like 'costing more time to fix the issue entirely' is more rhetoric than reason.

Pretty much anything they do to the game is likely to introduce other issues into the game, that is just a rock fact. If they are so concerned that adding complex solutions to problems they created might cause other problems then maybe they shouldn't have taken it upon themselves to painstakingly craft an overly complex problem in the first place. Seems like they weren't sufficiently concerned that this cluster truck of a system might break things to not spend the time developing it and cramming it into the game.

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Lich weapons, under this system, are quite likely to need much less forma. They already don't actually need that much. The reason why the current system is so unbearable for lich weapons is because so much forma is unnecessary. Nobody complains about needing to add two forma to a weapon, because that's expected. Five forma is unnecessary. Simply put, a two-forma requirement takes an expected investment for a weapon and gives it more reward. Instead of injecting more grind into a weapon, it increases the value of said grind.

No the reason the current system is unbearable is because no weapon needs forma to master, zip zero zilch. People invest Forma into them because they want to, because they like the weapon and choose to take it the extra mile. Where as this system extorts forma from the users by witholding mastery until the minimum Forma has been invested. 

If the weapons can stand on their own then people will willingly invest the forma into them. If you have to extort those forma out of your playerbase you have failed at design.

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

However, removing that forma-ing element entirely means it is quite possible for several lich weapons to require no forma whatsoever, which takes out the grind entirely. Which sounds great and lovely until you remember that the game is, at the end of the day, a free to play game which means that the economy must be balanced. Balance is not just giving the players everything they want.

I'm assuming you have looked at the grind associated with just getting these weapons? Not to mention the grind involved in getting a perfect variant of the weapon you want? on top of natural (read: not forced) forma investment into that weapon.... "giving the players everything they want" almost makes it sound like these are heccin login rewards. These things are already slathered in like ~6 layers of RNG and that's before you ever get around to anything else.  

These things are hardly being handed out like candy and there is already more than enough grind in the base system to "necessitate" forced forma investment for Mastery on top of everything else. 

 

[Loza03]

56 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Pretty much anything they do to the game is likely to introduce other issues into the game, that is just a rock fact. If they are so concerned that adding complex solutions to problems they created might cause other problems then maybe they shouldn't have taken it upon themselves to painstakingly craft an overly complex problem in the first place. Seems like they weren't sufficiently concerned that this cluster truck of a system might break things to not spend the time developing it and cramming it into the game.

Doesn't change the fact your solution isn't magically devoid of them, and thus warrants taking potentially much more time for the same, or just slightly more benefit.

56 minutes ago, Oreades said:

No the reason the current system is unbearable is because no weapon needs forma to master, zip zero zilch. People invest Forma into them because they want to, because they like the weapon and choose to take it the extra mile. Where as this system extorts forma from the users by witholding mastery until the minimum Forma has been invested. 

If the weapons can stand on their own then people will willingly invest the forma into them. If you have to extort those forma out of your playerbase you have failed at design.

It's a matter of semantics. Both our viewpoints are equally valid. It is as accurate to say "this mechanic rewards an existing grind more" or "this locks more behind a grind."

But, at the end of the day, going for full mastery is already a choice that extorts quite a bit of additional grind. Already acquired a prime weapon? Ah, but it looks like you didn't get the original. Go pay for a slot and grind for that weapon to get all the mastery. How is that different from requiring you to go get forma for mastery? They're locking your ability to get mastery behind platinum, or behind giving up an existing item!

Everything in the game could be painted as 'extorting' something out of the player... because it is, basically. Everything in the game requires something to acquire it.

The actual problem is that the Kuva weapons give too little for too much. So reduce how much they take. Since there is a complicating factor, the best solution is the one that is the easiest to implement and produces the most beneficial result.

Again, this is more rhetoric than reason.

56 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I'm assuming you have looked at the grind associated with just getting these weapons? Not to mention the grind involved in getting a perfect variant of the weapon you want? on top of natural (read: not forced) forma investment into that weapon.... "giving the players everything they want" almost makes it sound like these are heccin login rewards. These things are already slathered in like ~6 layers of RNG and that's before you ever get around to anything else.  

These things are hardly being handed out like candy and there is already more than enough grind in the base system to "necessitate" forced forma investment for Mastery on top of everything else. 

Pretty much everything I say above applies here. Kuva weapons don't give enough for what is put in - on that we agree, plainly. However, at the end of the day, DE is not run on ideals. DE is run on money. And money comes not just from the economic perspective of grind, but from how long it takes for them to make their game.

So, why should they take so much extra time and effort out to fix the problem when a simpler, faster solution exists?

Edited December 1, 2019 by Loza03

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

I dont see reason to invest 5 forma just for mr fodder. I can for paracesis since it is for sentient and use sacrificial mods.

de can refound us with forma...

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

one option could be to wait for boosters/ double affinity events to do them, we had Quadruple affinity last weekend as the 7 day boosters we got for the update stacked with the event bonus, so it was easy to level them. takes a lot longer now though. personally I'm fine with it as I enjoy grinding for MR with cool new weapons, but I can see it being too lengthy for some. the forma cost is heavy, but I'm running fissures to make up for it.

[BloodForCavalero]

I don't mind the r40 on unique weapons, and it only takes an hour to grind out to 40.

Gaining that amount of forma, is another story.

The randomness of the Liches, are the real pain. The cosmetic drops are nice, but ...

 

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

Well DE is laughing at me because I paid for 60 forma due to unwillingness to farm them for this purpose. 

[Lost_Cartographer]

The people complaining about this have some real addiction issues with this game.  Don't want to forma and rank up the weapons?  Don't have to.  Feel compelled to anyway?  I think getting a whole +10-20 mod points justifies the price tag.  Don't want to pay the price.  Not DE's problem.  Would sooner see the weapons NOT offer ten extra ranks or mastery beyond the first thirty?  JFC, ever hear of SELF CONTROL!?

How about no, they're fine, I'm not enslaved to my mastery rank, and if I like a weapon, chances are good I'm going to find a reason to sink 5 forma into it anyway, even if the irony with the kuva weapons is that the extra mod points sort of defeat the point of polarizing slots.

Not that I'll complain about needing only two forma to hit rank 40, but despite what I said above, I'm going to be THAT GUY and say it isn't fair to take away my extra 1000 mastery points just because some people stopped having fun a LONG time ago.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[DrivaMain]

I actually like the extra 20 capacity because it makes my setup a lot more flexible. I only need 2 formas on my Chakkrur just to fit 2 builds. The first is my Eidolon hunting build (usually a build like this takes 5 forma) and the second is a standard hybrid build (only needs 1-2 forma).

Edited December 2, 2019 by DrivaMain

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

6 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

I'm going to be THAT GUY and say it isn't fair to take away my extra 1000 mastery points just because some people stopped having fun a LONG time ago.

Do they really give 1000 more? 

Edited December 2, 2019 by (PS4)Zuzu_with_a_Z

[Test-995]

I'm wondering how much affinities needed for 31-40, 0-20 and 20-30 has same affinity requirement, so...

Edited December 2, 2019 by Test-995

[(PSN)LEFT__4__DEAD__2]

I think the Forma requirement should only be a thing for special weapons like [Paracesis] because its an exception especially good against sentients, but shouldnt be a requirement for other weapons added that have 40 or more levels maybe 45 or 50 in the future would be cool, also im happy for Railjack on PSN Warframe! 

[DarthIronclad]

This and the high rng of the lich system kinda shows that de is only gonna update the game once in a while...since it is basically a fairly cheap way for making self substantial content with little maintenance needed....

What they should have done and would earn more money in the long run is to do it the proper way...less rng and less forma needed, but add a whole bunch of new kuva weapons maybe every month? 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

16 minutes ago, DarthIronclad said:

This and the high rng of the lich system kinda shows that de is only gonna update the game once in a while...since it is basically a fairly cheap way for making self substantial content with little maintenance needed....

What they should have done and would earn more money in the long run is to do it the proper way...less rng and less forma needed, but add a whole bunch of new kuva weapons maybe every month? 

it might not be a consolation, but we will get more lich weapons.. once Infested and Corpus Liches are added. personally I'm quite excited to see which weapons get picked for a variant, and what new weapons we might get.

[trst]

Saying each weapon takes 210 ranks to max is probably one of the worst ways to put it when that can literally be condensed into six ESO runs per weapon. Plus when paired with the argument of going through it for mastery also defeats the drag of re-ranking weapons with the initial capacity granted by mastery itself; by the time you have two-three polarities you can usually keep a full build on an unranked weapon. And anyone ranking these for mastery while at a low rank themselves is throwing resources at the least efficient method to gain mastery.

But regardless, yeah, the grind to squeeze the tiny amount of mastery behind the extra ranks is a bit much. Though the real issue with that I see isn't that you need to rank them six times for all the mastery but that, unlike the Paracesis, you're only getting mastery for doing so. The Paracesis at least gave bonus Sentient damage per extra rank and the ability to reset Sentient resistances when fully maxed. If Kuva weapons gained something else for putting forma into them the grind would at least have more of a purpose.

[taiiat]

i support the premise in principle because having to Level a Weapon 8 times to Level it once (the amount of XP required to get to LV40 is about equivalent to Leveling something to 30 8 times), certainly doesn't increase any sort of enjoyment of the game. the XP Bars and Et Cetera in Warframe are the least interesting parts of the game, i very much don't recommend adding new content that makes those Bars longer or makes Players have to focus on those Bars for longer. that's just pushing Players to see the boring parts of the game, and holding them away from the less boring parts.

yeah yeah, it sells a lot more Forma so it prints money and therefore it's just good Business, blah blah - but does Warframe actually intend to try and be Apple? heh.

3 minutes ago, trst said:

If Kuva weapons gained something else for putting forma into them the grind would at least have more of a purpose.

can i get starting Energy for my Warfr- i mean Guns
i mean uh
what?

47 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

I'm wondering how much affinities needed for 31-40, 0-20 and 20-30 has same affinity requirement, so...

30: 450,000
40: 800,000

but you have to reset it to 0 to increase the cap by 2, so the difference between 30 and 40 isn't even significant, is it. since you have to reset to 0 the XP required to get to 40 is about 8x the amount it takes to get a normal Weapon to 30.

Edited December 2, 2019 by taiiat

[dEjAvU5566]

The timing is already late to change this setting, just like Hema thing all over again. 

[DarthIronclad]

Even if they change it now,the damage has already been done...as people who already do 5 forma will prob demand compensation,and that is another big issue to deal with.

The best option now is to have future nemesis weapons use less forma...

[Test-995]

9 minutes ago, DarthIronclad said:

The best option now is to have future nemesis weapons use less forma...

or... keep same system for future nemesis, and use the  "nah it's too late deal with it" logic again.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Test-995

[bananacat89]

Wonder how many Forma packs DE has sold since the Kuva weapon update? I bet ya its record number! That is all this really was about in my opinion. A dirty no good way to monetize the game and take advantage of all the mastery hunters. 

I don't think you should hold your breath waiting for a change. It is far to late. All the people who spent real money on forma will be pissed if it was for nothing. To late for that. What is done is done and there is no going back. Only thing we can hope for is the next batch of kuva weps are not some type of lame mastery fodder game. 

 

[Chicken-Biryani]

3 hours ago, bananacat89 said:

Wonder how many Forma packs DE has sold since the Kuva weapon update? I bet ya its record number! That is all this really was about in my opinion. A dirty no good way to monetize the game and take advantage of all the mastery hunters. 

I don't think you should hold your breath waiting for a change. It is far to late. All the people who spent real money on forma will be pissed if it was for nothing. To late for that. What is done is done and there is no going back. Only thing we can hope for is the next batch of kuva weps are not some type of lame mastery fodder game. 

 

Well, I don't want to put 5 forma into any kuva weapon. As long as it ain't 50%++ bonus. And considering the massive amount of rng I don't think I will ever get around to that either. So far, I have done 7 liches, none of them were above 30%. Guess, it's not my cup of content. 

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

11 hours ago, ShadowHvo said:

I believe the title speaks for itself.

Today alone I've grinded 3 Kuva Lich weapons from 30 to 40, and wasted 15 forma in the process. I've been rather diligent in always keeping myself up to date on the mastery progression, but I honestly think that this is the breaking point.

The Paracesis' unique leveling bonus was a cute little gimmick when it were on a single weapon. But this system is now shared with 13 new Kuva weapons, which is an unfathomable lengthy and expensive grind.

To express this pain, let me simply say this: To reach full mastery with a weapon, it usually takes 30 levels. But reaching full mastery with the Paracesis, and now each of the kuva weapons, takes 210 levels + 5 formas. With the Kuva weapons alone, that's 2730 levels... which usually would've amounted to 91 weapons fully mastery ranked.

It takes the same amount of affinity to level 91 weapons, as it does the 13 kuva lich weapons.

That is simply far too much of a grind in order to reach mastery with a weapon, and thus earn its associated progression points. I'm sorry to write this, in particular since I really like the new Kuva Lich system, as well as you, DE, as the developers.. But whomever thought that this decision seemed fair and fun really is a masochist.

It would've been cute and fine had these weapons just been capable of reaching level 40 without the need to forma it 5 times, since that would only be 10 additional levels of grinding per kuva weapon... But you've instead opted to make it 210 additional levels... simply in order to stay up-to-date on the mastery progression.


Congratulation to everyone who can endure this insane grind. I feel your pain, even if I refuse to indulge in this lunacy of a "progression" any longer.

How about no?