DE: It is time to stop. RNG does not fly.

[SsvenN]

I know many people are having fun with the working as a team things and gonna roll RJ's for quite some time from now on and the thing about RNG is the thing those people want. People who likes it will play it smoothly ( after some crashes get fixed). But the main point, why people arguing? Not like it - just do something else here. It's not like WF atm had built around RJ's there's bunch of other stuff to do.

[Anduvriel]

To be completely honest, rng stats mean longevity and more active trade.. That does correspond with money spent on game.

The real problem is it took them 3 years to make railjack and some players have everything mk III already after a week or so. Do you see the problem? 

They stated it many times, people spend money when they release content. You basically cant deny that, its like physics in f2p games. Thats why they cant concentrate on redoing old stuff, balancing, debugging. New content pays the bills - its a law. 

So they are seeking a longevity of the content they are creating by adding layers of rng. Right now the base idea of the f2p game industry is to create fun and interesting game loop and rng the rewards so the current content lasts for longer. It also has its merit in biology of human brain and behaviour. Rare instances or great luck is a great dopamine kick. Our brains like it. 

If it is done right it works. The problem is when the loop is unfun or the rng is to harsh on the bottom rolls. Railjack content in my opinion has a fun game loop, the rng thou needs some tweaking.

Kuva weapons are a good example (liches are not great, but that rng portion on weapons imo is done right). The base or the lowest roll on them is working (i have all the weapons, most are really good), the weapon itself is strong enough. Max roll is only 33% more powerful than the lowest. It gives a seen boost, but is not really required. Same should be aplied to rj parts, around 33-50% between bottom and top roll and some randomised gimicks that allow for some builds. Allow them to be traded and it will work. 

The problem right now is that some parts have 800% multi between top and bottom and apply to stats that are required (like mod capacity). In d3 the difference is 850-1000 so just 17%, in Poe a t3 roll is a common thing so i will use it as base, difference is 38/48 (resists) so around 30% difference, or counting differently a 90% res ring is cheap whereas 120+ is highly priced, thats still around 30%. Thats about the lines they should aim for. 

They are looking to actually get some freedom in the development time and i think it is starting to become a must. Most new content releases are now buggier, shallow and far less fun than they used to be. The bugs are piling, issues and abandon content that requires revisit is ramping up, they actually need longevity of the content really badly now so they can repair older stuff as well. 

I am not a huge fun of that model, but f2p market has not found a solution for it yet. All in all i hope that rng will not overshadow the game loop and we will be playing cause its fun and those rng drops will come eventually. 

[ValinorAtani]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Anduvriel:

Kuva weapons are a good example (liches are not great, but that rng portion on weapons imo is done right). The base or the lowest roll on them is working (i have all the weapons, most are really good), the weapon itself is strong enough. Max roll is only 33% more powerful than the lowest. It gives a seen boost, but is not really required. Same should be aplied to rj parts, around 33-50% between bottom and top roll and some randomised gimicks that allow for some builds. Allow them to be traded and it will work. 

Personally I would only let this argument count if we could kill a lich within 15 Minutes and without the rest of "challenging" RNG content around it or even less layers of RNG tied to it. Only then it wouldnt be a problem to get a duplicate or a not favored +Stat Roll. Right now why should players who doesnt want to bother with a system which could be fun but the execution was more a miss instead of a hit (that this is a miss is my opionion, not a generalization)? Just for a weapon reskin?

[SneakyErvin]

54 minutes ago, ValinorAtani said:

Yeah, because the Loot is literally raining from the skies which doesnt even happen in Warframe regarding this right now. If DE wants to ramp up the sustainability for their by random stats the have to drastically increase the drop rate of resources (less chore to build something new if it’s something you wont need or its not viable) and BP (more drops so that the RNG Stats doesn’t matter if it was a bad roll) to gain and reward the same psychological triggers which helps Diablo and Borderlands to be successful in a long run.

No really, it doesnt rain from the skies if you want the best, which the OP is complaining about. If you want the middleground gear in something like D3 it is fairly easily obtainable, but so is the middleground gear here aswell and we need far less of it than you'd need in D3. If you want primal ancient gear then you are in for a long long grind, which would be the equivalent of a top rolled mk3 reactor, shield or engine here, including the mat grind.

And dont claim that gear rains in PoE, it just doesnt. You can have a lucky league run at times and at others you struggle like #*!% to reach the point you need, unless you trade for everything, which results in resource grinds far beyond what we'll ever have here. And even further beyond what trading requires of us here.

This is also without taking into account that in D3 you grind content that is so trivial that it would be like running lith level missions here to gear out your RJ, which makes it boring as hell to do over longer periods, periods that are needed in order to get any form of mats gathered to craft a bit in the cube. WF is a breeze compared to those games when it comes to mats and rng for RJ. Only a few costs need an adjustment.

44 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

Gameplay can be fun, but do the same thing 100 times and you'll get bored. And that's exactly what railjack is fun, but the same thing to the point all the nodes are "Skrimish" because it's just the same objectives unless you are "away team" IE the pub player who ditches railjack to go rush to see if Blueprint drops.. 

What BPs are even worth rushing for? If someone strays from the group to go get his hands on possible rare chests and umbra bps he will likely get yelled at depending on which objective he goes looking at. If it is for wreckage, well everyone will get that doing whatever they do when someone picks it up anyways, so you wont get them any faster by going off somewhere solo.

[Anduvriel]

25 minutes ago, ValinorAtani said:

Personally I would only let this argument count if we could kill a lich within 15 Minutes and without the rest of "challenging" RNG content around it or even less layers of RNG tied to it. Only then it wouldnt be a problem to get a duplicate or a not favored +Stat Roll. Right now why should players who doesnt want to bother with a system which could be fun but the execution was more a miss instead of a hit (that this is a miss is my opionion, not a generalization)? Just for a weapon reskin?

There is a problem with "i want everything with top stats, but i want it in 15 minutes" . 

I have all the weapons and got them in 16 liches. My clanmates helped me with 3 weapons, trading their uneeded ones for my uneeded ones. With around 2-3h per lich it means you can get all weapons for mr in less than 50h of play that is basically normal missions with a gimick. Thats the base of what you might say is "needed", but is it? You dont really need any of that, its just mr..

My highest roll is a 55% hammer rad, next 3 are 45, 44 and 37 and i am fine with that. Most of my weapons are 26-28% and i dont care - they work. 

Lets assume that mr is a must - its 50h if you have a clan, or friends, or socialise even a bit, if you want a karak or a seer pm in game will give you one for free. 

The very different topic is "i want that particular weapon with max roll". Certain weapons are worth 1.5k plat with the right element and max roll. You have to grind a lot for that and thats fine. Your base weapon even with the crapiest roll will still be viable being just 25% weaker than that one for 1.5k plat. Imo its a good balance. 

[Loza03]

My take on it:

Ultimately, RNG is not a bad thing in and of itself. Yes, it's not particularly nice, but we ultimately need to remember that DE needs to keep players, well, playing, and people are fickle. Even if they love a game, without a reward structure, they'll leave. It's also a sad fact of reality that it is very hard to produce a system wherein DE can infinitely make more custom rewards. Thus, why RNG exists. That's also why it exists in Diablo, Destiny, Overwatch, Dragon Ball Xenoverse, Minecraft... need I go on? It's a ubiquitous system for a reason.

 

Having said that, what irks me is the fact they've tied heavy resource costs to it as well. I would prefer - and have stated as such - that DE would either greatly lower the costs (making 'rolls' faster) or lower the amount of RNG to something more similar to Avionics - a set of pre-determined stats that is randomly picked from.

[Skaleek]

2 hours ago, AmaruKaze said:

random generated boni

Your post gave me a random generated boni.

[Yamazuki]

2 hours ago, xBloodySin said:

It's almost like they don't want people to have the best of the best within half a week of release, huh?

You can accomplish that without RNG, and you can still maintain grind without RNG being the sole factor. Even Korean MMORPGs (a genre centered around very long RNG oriented grind) are starting to have less RNG in their progression. I remember when most of your strength would come down to the 1% chance of successfully enchanting, with the other 99% typically being either your gear got downgraded, or it exploded into pieces and you either had to get it all over again, or spend money. Now a days, more of them take the grind resources for a guaranteed, or near guaranteed, upgrade each time.

Warframe has always been grindy without randomized stat equipment, mods have absurdly low drop chances, and high amount of resources needed for getting everything without relying on plat. They could have kept the randomized stat drops, with an alternate method of getting higher stat gear; people could either grind through RNG hoping for something good, or choose to just grind out resources to continuously upgrade everything one at a time over some months.

[Erwes]

It's because there is some addicted kids that have done everything and want more things to do (and also be stronger than a nuclear bomb)....

And it's actually where De is focusing their content nowadays because it seems that they can't create a good sustainable content that keep players in the game that don't involve grind... It's easier and better in the short run at least.

It's okay to grind for content but content shouldn't be the grind itself.

I don't understand why they doing it though, maybe the asian market is bigger than I thought. Joke aside they will lost some players and make it certainly less appealing for newcomers...

[Skaleek]

3 minutes ago, Erwes said:

because there is some addicted kids that have done everything and want more things to do (and also be stronger than a nuclear bomb)

Thank you, I think i've probably killed more Grineer/Corpus/Infested than a nuclear bomb ever could. And I do long for the days of being a kid once again. And i have done everything. I can only assume you're talking about me. I also really like more things to do. How are you reading my mind right now?!

Oh, I'm also pretty addicted to Warframe. Looks like my newborn son is too, he cant take his eyes off the screen when i play Railjack.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Skaleek

[Hypernaut1]

Rivens have proven that RNG is a hit and keeps vets coming back. To this day they can still give a riven as a gift of the lotus and it's still desired by many players. Sorties w were saved single handedly by Rivens. Games like this thrive on RNG. 

[Anduvriel]

23 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

You can accomplish that without RNG, and you can still maintain grind without RNG being the sole factor. 

They use both methods. Mods are not random, you upgrade it through dirac (they could drop with random stats). The problem with upgrade system it feels like work, there are no spikes of "happiness". Its just plain dull grind.

Imagine a 5% bonus added to your weapon up to the max of 60% each time you kill a Lich with the right weapon.. Would it be better than it is now? What about if it was 2%? 

Our brain works in certain way, you remember the lucky rolls, the very awesome things that happened and the worst things, but you basically forget everything that is normal or even slightly bad quickly. The super rare reward triggers part of your brain to release dopamine and it makes you happy. That is addictive (Path of Exile heavily relies on dopamine cycle, they dont even hide it) and is basically an efficient way to create content that will hook you.. If the loop is fun.. Well thats what you aim for with a product. 

[844448]

3 minutes ago, Erwes said:

they can't create a good sustainable content that keep players in the game that don't involve grind

Very funny because any sustainable content always involve grind in it, not to mention RNG

[schilds]

Sustainable content involves fun gameplay. Rng sometimes serves to facilitate fun. Other times it just serves to frustrate.

 

As for grind, I would say it involves reasonable pacing rather than grind.

Edited December 18, 2019 by schilds

[Think01]

3 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

4 hours ago, AmaruKaze said:

Why the hell are you so obsessed with RNG?

Because this is a Free to Play game. If it gave everything to us just like that, no one would buy plat. And by buying plat they keep the lights on.

 

This. Just plain this. And DE is one of the fairest companies out there in the F2P field.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Think01
typo

[Psianide73]

Why don't all those that make complaints like this get together, and create a game in their vision.

I'd be genuinely interested to see how it turns out.

[Erwes]

Citation

Very funny because any sustainable content always involve grind in it, not to mention RNG

 

Not really I was thinking about for example decorations, you have to grind for them because you want them. I mean I liked grinding to get weapons and stuff, it is part of the core game but we have plenty of them so there is really no need to add more. Even if at least it is related to the core game. Now we have liches and Railjack which are really independent. 

What I wanted to say with sustainable content is for example open worlds or conclave. Those are great ideas but they don't succeed to make it good enough so few players enjoy them even if I think the potential is enormous. De is focusing to please players who want more grind and not focusing on diverse and fun gameplays that could keep players...

You should grind to obtain something that makes you stronger to beat something strong, and not grind to become stronger to grind more. What is the point of grinding in this game ?

In World Of Warcraft which is quite grindy too, you want to become stronger to beat stronger being, being stronger than players, to be respected for you skill, to make players wanting to team, to beat dungeon and stronger dungeon, to discover the lore, to travel to more and more epics lands, ect...

In Warframe what do you want to beat other than some heavy gunner and maybe some boss at the beginning. There is no pvp core game related (too different) and we are strong enough to beat missions solo, to beat missions without doing a thing with random people, so there is basically not much coop. At least the railjack is good step in that direction...

So why should we need to be stronger ? And so what is the point for those contents ?

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

3 hours ago, Emolition said:

The RNG of diablo 3 and path of exile don't seem to make ppl stop playing on the flip they just start a new season and redo the whole grind over every season for million of seasons. Farming for most part same gear over again they allready owned.

You cannot compare Diablo/PoE to the Railjack grind, because in those games if you get a good drop with a good roll, you can use it right then and there with minimal investment, and if you find a new one with a better roll, you don't lose much for switching. In Railjack, if you get a drop with good roll, you have to invest either 50 plat or a ton of resources in order to use it, and if you find a new drop with a better roll, you either lose 50 plat or you lose half the resources you spent. Also, in PoE if you get a good roll, but then get a better one, you can sell the good roll to someone else in the game to recoup some (or all) of your investment in that item. In Railjack, you cannot recoup any of your investment if you get a better roll.

That's why PoE/Diablo feel rewarding when you get a better drop than what you currently have, while getting a better item in Railjack just feels like a boot to the head.

[schilds]

As for the whole "they need it to make people spend plat". Speak for yourselves. I spend my money on DE when I think they deserve it.

Having said that, it could be I'm abnormal :-P.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Looks like more and more players want from WF to become fullpriced game.

[KnightOwl_]

3 hours ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

Is the gaming industry so dense and uncreative that rng is the only way to go to make replayable content? 

It’s more of because overall it’s the “best” method with the least amount of drawbacks, well, relatively speaking.  Making difficult content is a popular idea in mmos, but most people just bring up Wildstar, a flop of an mmo that was all about being difficult.  Difficult content is a hard sell, because as any public spy sortie will tell you, a large portion of a given games playerbase is abjectly terrible at the game.

 So for better or for worse, developers go with RNG as a substitute.  Developers see it as a way to extend a games life without pushing out the masses of casualbads, aka the majority of a games playerbase. 

Now I’m not defending RNG, and there are many legit gripes about RNG in warframe, just trying to explain how we got to this point.  

[Wakata]

Lets not talk for others,
I dont know what flies with community but i like the fact that there are items in the warframe, that has stats based on range so i have something that i can farm in a long run and not just get everything after 3 days after the release. When i got better version of my MK3 stuff i can just scrap the old one and build a new one, no problem.

[Anduvriel]

38 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

You cannot compare Diablo/PoE to the Railjack grind, because in those games if you get a good drop with a good roll, you can use it right then and there with minimal investment, 

Minimal investment...

Let me introduce you to the big fat monster, the deadliest of the monsters in diablo 3. You meet her when that perf 10/100 cc/cd ancient hellfire with the useful passive is crafted and you are so happy. You go to her with your precious to just get that element, even 15% would sufice.. but it must be physical or its not an upgrade at all.. 

After 1k+ gems, an army of souls and simple mats you had to run few times to farm them... When those bilions of gold is shreded.. something, a part of you dies inside and precious becomes a toxic token of a random slot machine. 

Or maybe should i introduce you to fusing orbs? You meet them when that perfect unique chest dropped.. After spending 64 exalted orbs worth of fuses i started to question what i play.. You may say you can go with 5 link, but what about if you have one already and play ssf? 

Too many times i was there to agree to that. Its better in wf - its a stable cost, it doesnt change. In those 2 games you might roll forever. 

[Emolition]

2 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

You cannot compare Diablo/PoE to the Railjack grind, because in those games if you get a good drop with a good roll, you can use it right then and there with minimal investment, and if you find a new one with a better roll, you don't lose much for switching. In Railjack, if you get a drop with good roll, you have to invest either 50 plat or a ton of resources in order to use it, and if you find a new drop with a better roll, you either lose 50 plat or you lose half the resources you spent. Also, in PoE if you get a good roll, but then get a better one, you can sell the good roll to someone else in the game to recoup some (or all) of your investment in that item. In Railjack, you cannot recoup any of your investment if you get a better roll.

That's why PoE/Diablo feel rewarding when you get a better drop than what you currently have, while getting a better item in Railjack just feels like a boot to the head.

Sure it more investment in railjack but ones you get that good version it will last you for years while in d3/poe they useless at next season and you have to spend weeks farming same item again. Deppending on the rng that is a huge pain to find the right version with the perfect rolls again. 

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

RNG has been apart of this game for far longer then empyrean.  From orokin cell farming for building primes to running spy vaults for days hoping for an ivara bp to drop.