Empyrean bringing new type of grind.. stop!

[000l000]

Le 03/01/2020 à 11:14, Mints a dit :

Whereas what I mean is that he needs to prove it. His anecdote and opinion are not enough. Evidence is necessary to make claims like this.

Or prove him wrong instead, it works both ways. Paranoid comments won't help much, what he said is true, and tbh who does even care if you trust him or not.

[Fl_3]

13 hours ago, 844448 said:

Reason behind this? People who keep claiming the game is too easy, them falling asleep while playing, now you have that not so easy to do mission and power is still there if you use Hyperstrike, the Serration for railjack

 

Because that's what people see as fun and "sustainable" content. Apparently there's no reason to play just for fun and gameplay, just for chasing rewards and scream content drought afterwards and playing for the sake of playing is a grave sin in warframe

But the power isn't there, It feels like you have less power in Veil than you had at the start at Earth. The game doesn't feel good. Now, take your fully tricked out ship back to earth and that's fun, a T3 railjack with all the skills and equipment is really fun to play in Earth Proxima, but not in Veil, is it supposed to be that way because a lot of people aren't interested in content that isn't fun to play.

The best way I've found to play Railjack is to push your Railjack as far from the battlefield as possible and then go out in the one Archwing that has a chance of surviving using one of the two best Archguns in Railjack and ignore the fact that the Railjack is even in the game.

Simply put, the best way to get anywhere in Railjack is not to play Railjack? Do you think that's right? do people actually think that it's supposed to be this way?

I don't understand why people say Warframe isn't hard enough when it's pretty apparent from the design choices that DE have made over the past (almost) decade Warframe is supposed to be easy, why else would DE have given the players so much power and left it that way for so long. All they're going to do if they change that is drive out the core of their player base, the people who come here for the ability to jump into a room full of Grineer, press a couple of buttons and jump out leaving a room of corpses behind you.

Warframe isn't rocket science, it's Diablo.

If people wanted "Hard" they wouldn't be playing Warframe in the first place.

As for "Sustainable content" Grind isn't content, grind is what we do to get the rewards from content, and DE seems to have forgotten that.

What at the moment exactly is the point behind the last two updates? What purpose do they serve outside of their own separate game modes? Neither Railjack or Old Blood links into the main game of Warframe. Neither is required to play Warframe itself, and both of them seem to be totally ignored by a lot of the players. The clan I'm in is doing exactly the same things it always did before Old Blood or Railjack, we've played the updates, and said we'll be back when it's been balanced/improved. We can do that because there is absolutely no reason to play any of this new content, it doesn't really bring anything new to Warframe, some new weapons? so what? Ephemera? Big deal, let the people who are interested in that kind of thing grind them. 

I'm doing the things I find fun, which is neither Railjack or Old Blood, and I'm not the only one.

I've been here long enough to know that if an update doesn't take off DE are quite happy to just leave it in the game and move on to the next content pipedream that won't live up to the hype that they throw around it.

DE should stick to what they're good at, a mindless looter shooter that's a fun to play power fantasy for the people involved, because that part of the game IS fun, unlike the last two major pieces of content that they've thrown at us, which are both nothing but buggy, unbalanced hack jobs released far too early and way too unpolished.

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Or prove him wrong instead, it works both ways.

They'll probably just ignore that. This seems to be classic ego defense at work - this person's subconscious is going to block, deflect, shut out, deny, and attack anything that's perceived as a threat to what the person believes to be true and accurate. A person's ego can be a fragile thing and the subconscious knows this. It can actively interfere with how we act and react to things...often to the detriment of the individual and others around them. It really is a truism when people say that we can be our own worst enemies.

Most people deal with this by saying to themselves "Hey - it's ok to be wrong, it's not going to hurt us. We have correct information that can allow us to be better and stronger." You have to convince your ego that it's ok to let go, that it doesn't need to be protective.

For those of you that analyzed the situation, presented evidence, and made reasonable and effective counter-arguments, be content with the knowledge that you've uncovered the truth of the situation: That stat RNG can result in high level reactor wreckage being inferior than equivalent level or lesser researched reactors.

Those that seek the truth and can accept it are the real winners in a debate.

[Mints]

15 hours ago, Next-of-Sin said:

You do see that in the name of "logic" you derailed an entire thread

Oh woe is me, I derailed a thread founded on an irrational hyperbole.

15 hours ago, Next-of-Sin said:

You don't appear as trying to discuss, you're just trying to be right.

Then you're uneducated and don't know how logic works. I haven't asserted anything as fact. OP has and OP's wrong. There's nothing for me to be "right" about and a gaggle of fools liking and applauding eachothers' posts won't change that. This isn't reddit chief, that means it's not an upvote popularity contest. I don't need your approval to call out a fallacy. Deal with it.

14 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Whatever you say mints , Ad hominem much?

Thank for exposing the fact that you have no idea how logic works, have no idea what the term you just used means, and had nothing of value to contribute from the start. Ad hominem is an argument that uses an opponent's traits, previous personal actions outside of the argument, or reputation as a premise. I have done no such thing. I called you out on the improper use of the word pedantic and referenced your name alongside it. In fact, by misusing a fallacy, that makes you the pedant now. Educate yourself.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Mints

[Mints]

On 2020-01-04 at 5:52 PM, 000l000 said:

Or prove him wrong instead, it works both ways. Paranoid comments won't help much, what he said is true, and tbh who does even care if you trust him or not.

That's not how the burden of proof works. He has to prove his assertions right. Demanding proof of a negative is the sign of a truly ignorant person without the faintest conceptualization of logical procedure. You're not demanding proof of a negative, are you?

Just to humor you, let me give you an example: Person A claims that dragons exist. Person B negates this by saying Person A has no proof that dragons exist. If Person C demands that Person B prove that dragons do not exist they are making an irrational demand for Person B to prove a negative. The Burden of Proof is on Person A, not Person B. Proof does not work both ways.

[IntheCoconut]

4 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

But the power isn't there, It feels like you have less power in Veil than you had at the start at Earth. The game doesn't feel good. Now, take your fully tricked out ship back to earth and that's fun, a T3 railjack with all the skills and equipment is really fun to play in Earth Proxima, but not in Veil, is it supposed to be that way because a lot of people aren't interested in content that isn't fun to play.

The best way I've found to play Railjack is to push your Railjack as far from the battlefield as possible and then go out in the one Archwing that has a chance of surviving using one of the two best Archguns in Railjack and ignore the fact that the Railjack is even in the game.

Simply put, the best way to get anywhere in Railjack is not to play Railjack? Do you think that's right? do people actually think that it's supposed to be this way?

I don't understand why people say Warframe isn't hard enough when it's pretty apparent from the design choices that DE have made over the past (almost) decade Warframe is supposed to be easy, why else would DE have given the players so much power and left it that way for so long. All they're going to do if they change that is drive out the core of their player base, the people who come here for the ability to jump into a room full of Grineer, press a couple of buttons and jump out leaving a room of corpses behind you.

Warframe isn't rocket science, it's Diablo.

If people wanted "Hard" they wouldn't be playing Warframe in the first place.

As for "Sustainable content" Grind isn't content, grind is what we do to get the rewards from content, and DE seems to have forgotten that.

What at the moment exactly is the point behind the last two updates? What purpose do they serve outside of their own separate game modes? Neither Railjack or Old Blood links into the main game of Warframe. Neither is required to play Warframe itself, and both of them seem to be totally ignored by a lot of the players. The clan I'm in is doing exactly the same things it always did before Old Blood or Railjack, we've played the updates, and said we'll be back when it's been balanced/improved. We can do that because there is absolutely no reason to play any of this new content, it doesn't really bring anything new to Warframe, some new weapons? so what? Ephemera? Big deal, let the people who are interested in that kind of thing grind them. 

I'm doing the things I find fun, which is neither Railjack or Old Blood, and I'm not the only one.

I've been here long enough to know that if an update doesn't take off DE are quite happy to just leave it in the game and move on to the next content pipedream that won't live up to the hype that they throw around it.

DE should stick to what they're good at, a mindless looter shooter that's a fun to play power fantasy for the people involved, because that part of the game IS fun, unlike the last two major pieces of content that they've thrown at us, which are both nothing but buggy, unbalanced hack jobs released far too early and way too unpolished.

I agree with some of what you've said but I do disagree about challenging content, at least, what I want from it anyway. This honestly isn't really "challenging" content, at least not the kind people are asking for. This is just a gear check. You get wrecked if you don't have the right components and if you haven't upgraded them. Sure, a ship with a more experienced team is likely to do better than a group of randoms on the same content and with the same gear, but even an experienced team is going to have to stop at some point because they need better components. So many MMOs do this. You can't do a dungeon or a raid, not because you need to improve your skills, but because you are lacking the necessary "gear score" to survive it. 

This isn't new, and its what the entire foundation of Warframe was built on; getting through the starchart with new mods, frames, and weapons. I think Railjack fits into that same design just fine, but they mucked it up with too many elements of RNG. At least, that's how I see it. I think needing to upgrade your MKI to II and eventually III is fine, its nothing more than a gear check, but it isn't a very satisfying feeling either right now with how easy it is to "fail" at RNG.

I hope we'll see more depth along with some balancing changes (and of course bug fixes) as The New War comes out, but I'm starting to feel a bit disheartened by these half-baked projects that DE keeps pushing out. We couldn't really judge Melee 2.999 until Melee 3.0 finally came out. We can't really judge Lichs because they needed to be tied into Railjack. We can't really judge Railjack because they want to expand on it with The New War and seamless planet-to-space transitions. Everything new that they come out with is only half finished and I keep feeling like we're told "just wait, you've only seen half the potential this new system brings!" but instead of building on it, they keep introducing another new game system. I keep telling myself to just wait until its "finished" to judge any of these systems, but I don't see the finish line anywhere.

Edited January 4, 2020 by IntheCoconut

[Hiirios]

Am 3.1.2020 um 10:59 schrieb Mints:

Do you have any actual proof of this or did you just look at an MK1 part with one stat maxed out compared to an MK3 part with relatively equal stat distribution and assume that the former is objectively better than the latter?

while it's true that mk1 reactors are not better than mk3 but EVERY mk2 reactor has a chance (some even a pretty big one) to be better than sh1t roled mk3 reactors or shields.
engines can actually be better at mk1 than mk3. 
if you don't believe me just actually play the game, look at the wiki https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Railjack/Components#Reactor and don't just try to whit knight DE for EXTREME S#&$ decisions they made

Edited January 5, 2020 by Hiirios

[Mints]

51 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

while it's true that mk1 reactors are not better than mk3

Great. That means you and I have nothing to argue about.

[schilds]

How about you all stop discussing each other. Whether or not that discussion involves insults or otherwise, it's uninteresting.

[0_The_F00l]

Back on topic:

I made another thread about the limitations of builds and the maximum avionic capacity that would be needed. So even with a Very good high end reactor , you would still be a little short of a good build.

so even though i agree with the OP with regards to the poor grind and MK3 sometimes not being objectively better in specific stats,

i say you dont even need to grind for em as you cant use all your good avionics anyway,

just get the basics (hyperstrike , hullweave , bulkhead) - granted the grind for even the basics is still asinine.

Void cloak for "oh S#&$" moments

This will only need a sigma 3 with some capacity top spare

The guns do need to be the relevant to you level , so MK3 (vidar preferably) Cryophon or carcinnox are currently better than the others with a sub par build.

[Marvelous_A]

We f**ked up in the past year when every update was DE's test on our bottom line of RNG and grind.

We failed to tell DE "NO". And now we finally come to this.

[Quimoth]

12 hours ago, Mints said:

Reported. 😊

Edit: For someone who claims he "won't read" me he sure is good at passive aggressively editing his posts as if I won't see it.

Every single post you've made is passively aggressive. Do you really want to go down the reporting way? I bet you'll find few people backing you with your general disdain and bias presented here.

Proof has been given that an mk3 reactor can be worse than an mk2 apart from the special bonus which is quite useless in most cases. But even if a reactor rolled slightly higher than an mk1 base part... that still means I can roll a slightly better mk1 part that outperforms the mk3 terribad part.

For the math:

take a +30 km/h vidar mk1 engine. Base engine speed is 307. Base boosting is x2.
take a +10 km/h lavan mk3 engine. Bonus boost can be as low as 0.3, total boosting x2.3.

My ship with mk1 vidar engine would have a speed of 307+150 and a boost of x2, going up to 914 when boosting.
My ship with mk3 lavan engine would have a speed of 307+50 and a boost of x2.3, going up to 821.1

What exactly makes this mk3 engine better than the mk1?
Don't come with the perks bullS#¡t, I'll print them right here straight from the wiki:

+20% Top Speed while shields are depleted		This would result in a slightly higher speed without shields... wow.
Tenno gain 500 overshields after being launched from the Slingshot		This is some of the most useless S#&$ i've seen since your shields can be shot to crap by crewships DURING the slingshot animation

Edited January 5, 2020 by Quimoth

[Volinus7]

On 2020-01-03 at 3:40 PM, Dauggie said:

(I guess since no one bothered to voice against it)

Many people declared that they quitted Warframe on TWW feedback topic.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[ciTiger]

RNG layers is killing game experience.

[Dban1]

When reading and debating this thread is more content heavy and entertaining than Railjack 😀

[Fl_3]

On 2020-01-04 at 10:34 PM, IntheCoconut said:

I agree with some of what you've said but I do disagree about challenging content, at least, what I want from it anyway. This honestly isn't really "challenging" content, at least not the kind people are asking for. This is just a gear check. You get wrecked if you don't have the right components and if you haven't upgraded them. Sure, a ship with a more experienced team is likely to do better than a group of randoms on the same content and with the same gear, but even an experienced team is going to have to stop at some point because they need better components. So many MMOs do this. You can't do a dungeon or a raid, not because you need to improve your skills, but because you are lacking the necessary "gear score" to survive it. 

This isn't new, and its what the entire foundation of Warframe was built on; getting through the starchart with new mods, frames, and weapons. I think Railjack fits into that same design just fine, but they mucked it up with too many elements of RNG. At least, that's how I see it. I think needing to upgrade your MKI to II and eventually III is fine, its nothing more than a gear check, but it isn't a very satisfying feeling either right now with how easy it is to "fail" at RNG.

I hope we'll see more depth along with some balancing changes (and of course bug fixes) as The New War comes out, but I'm starting to feel a bit disheartened by these half-baked projects that DE keeps pushing out. We couldn't really judge Melee 2.999 until Melee 3.0 finally came out. We can't really judge Lichs because they needed to be tied into Railjack. We can't really judge Railjack because they want to expand on it with The New War and seamless planet-to-space transitions. Everything new that they come out with is only half finished and I keep feeling like we're told "just wait, you've only seen half the potential this new system brings!" but instead of building on it, they keep introducing another new game system. I keep telling myself to just wait until its "finished" to judge any of these systems, but I don't see the finish line anywhere.

I agree with you, I'm hoping that one everything is tied together that the whole will be greater than the sum of its parts.

Honestly every time [DE]Steve says "We're going to try something new" it fills me with dread.

I wish that they would stop, go back and polish bugs out of what we already have.

[Rahlence]

33 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

I agree with you, I'm hoping that one everything is tied together that the whole will be greater than the sum of its parts.

Honestly every time [DE]Steve says "We're going to try something new" it fills me with dread.

I wish that they would stop, go back and polish bugs out of what we already have.

The problem with that is it doesn't have the same draw that new content does.  "We updated this old thing" is a lot less enticing than "We added this new thing."  This is why that will probably never be their focus.

[Mints]

28 minutes ago, Rahlence said:

"We updated this old thing" is a lot less enticing than "We added this new thing."

I'm crossing my fingers that the Corpus Ship tileset rework will feel like a breath of fresh air for everyone. You're a founder too so I'm sure you recall the days when it was the only tileset. With its rework the oldest assets in the game will be replaced. Feels almost like a rechristening.

[dogbus]

It definitely feels like it, considering most people don't bother regarding the perks as having "better" values in a tradeoff, or with how you can can make up for a subpar secondary stat with Avionics. Even in such cases as the latter, it still requires allocating Avionics themselves to offset. For example, if you have a reactor with low Flux, you can always throw on Hyperflux (but it costs Avionics to do). If you throw on a Lavan Shield for its higher shields amount, at the cost of regen, you can always throw on an Anode Cell (once again, at the cost of Avionics). There is no way to boost Capacity in the same way, locking most into a catch-22 scenario. 

Luckily, this appears to be something that DE has acknowledged and says they are going to be addressing, at the very least with the abhorrent drop rates. I, for one, await eagerly for the next set of patch notes. I think there's a lot that many of us would like to see changed. Good thing they are at least involved in their community (to an extent) and do at least take and accept feedback, good or bad; majority or minority.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Vaeldious

[buffalobuffalogaming]

On 2020-01-03 at 3:40 PM, Dauggie said:

this kind of grind puts me in worried state of how future would be.

These bonus stats are optional and I've tested them so far,
They are mostly useless and doesn't affect much on my current RJ performance.

For example:

1. I use my "just-another-common" RJ build to fly casually in the Veil.
2. I rely on solid bonuses (Avionics, Rhino's roar, etc ....) rather than random unreliable weapon stats.
3. I'm using a garbage +30% Fire Rate MK3 Lavan Cryophon and It works fine.
4. I've spent around 450 plats (which I farmed earlier) to complete my first full MK3 sets RJ, effortlessly. 
5. No need to grind heavily or lock myself up in the room just for few more useless scraps with little bonus stats.
6. I now play RJ just for fun and few extra resources for the future content. Feels good to fly in space sometimes. Keep me relaxing.

I suggest you don't expect much from a broken work-in-progress content ?

[Dauggie]

4 minutes ago, blimsoon said:

 

I suggest you don't expect much from a broken work-in-progress content ?

no i'm concern about how future grind with same mechanics will go. they will implement more such things if it isn't stopped right now. thus forcing you to buy plat to get good gear from someone else. ofcourse it comes down to personal experience some might be lucky and some not. also i have a feeling they might remove frame buffing/effecting rj mechanics, otherwise only few effecting rj and some not is BS game desgin

[dogbus]

3 minutes ago, Dauggie said:

also i have a feeling they might remove frame buffing/effecting rj mechanics

They've already said that frames like Rhino's Buff affecting weapons is unintentional and will be removed. However, they did also say that in place of it, guns will be more powerful. I believe currently running on the Dev build is enemies ships with half the armor they currently have on the Live/Public build.

Edit: Here's what I'm referring to:

6 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

Few Warframe Abilities unintentionally work on the Railjack itself, bringing a meta Warframe to Railjack Weapons is not a design outcome we intended (i.e Chroma does not work). Our goal here is to balance so that players don’t feel they need to use Rhino’s Roar; Railjack weapons should feel powerful on their own. And right now they don’t. A main reason for this is the enemy Armor values are extremely high - on Dev we have halved all armor values for fighters to test that, and will send it out if it feels better! 

Empyrean is still in its early stages. Long term, we look forward to further updates with new content, including the Command Intrinsic class, and more. Expect balancing across the board in the near future!

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Vaeldious

[buffalobuffalogaming]

2 minutes ago, Dauggie said:

thus forcing you to buy plat to get good gear from someone else.

I don't think DE is forcing anyone to buy plat to get a good gear.They allowed players to grind for it.
It's the player's decision alone whether or not to spent plats buying what they want.

[buffalobuffalogaming]

7 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Our goal here is to balance so that players don’t feel they need to use Rhino’s Roar; Railjack weapons should feel powerful on their own.

Finally, they have realized.... At least I can stop Roaring in my ship, like a madman. 😂

[Dauggie]

2 minutes ago, blimsoon said:

I don't think DE is forcing anyone to buy plat to get a good gear.They allowed players to grind for it.
It's the player's decision alone whether or not to spent plats buying what they want.

that's naive thinking tbh, they know how the grind is and aware that those who work wont be able to grind like those who play atleast 2 hours a day. and ofcourse everyone likes to try new stuff. So that's where plat comes into play. you are not forced but the time required is too much for certain players. i'm not complaining since i can play everyday but that's for now, tomorrow i might not have such time and grind like this which have 2% drop chance and even with that you get S#&$ rng stat. you lose interest in playing the game, and atm warframe cant afford that. each day players are leaving. all i want is non rng stats grind, then they keep it however hard they want