Can we bring CC back

[rs_sakuras]

I know damage is meta and all. And it is fun to nuke entire map with nucklear missiles using ember. But CC frames seem to get pushed more and more back. Think of the poor nyx. 😞

[Cubewano]

Nyx was bad even in the CC meta lbr

[rs_sakuras]

Just now, Cubewano said:

Nyx was bad even in the CC meta lbr

True, but she's still the best looking frame especially with the Deluxe skin. 😄

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, rs_sakuras said:

True, but she's still the best looking frame especially with the Deluxe skin. 😄

Nezha deluxe would like a word. 

[Senguash]

It's a very general issue in the game that core mechanics aren't being rebalanced, we instead just get enemies that completely ignore them.

It's this either/or principal which sucks.

We don't get enemies with reduced cc effectiveness or reduced status effectiveness.

We get enemies that are immune to both.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

1 hour ago, rs_sakuras said:

Think of the poor nyx. 😞

we try not to, and so does DE it would seem. if Pablo worked his magic on Nyx, it would be great.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Tactical, thought out gameplay isn't for the masses. Sorry man. Path of least resistance etc. Not to mention every online game having inevitable power creep as stuff is constantly added over time etc etc.

If you wanna grab a buddy and be like "Hey man, let's take Nyx and Trinity with these weapons to perform this task etc etc." You're more than welcome.

Public mmo is different than a clan that communicates and plans things out etc.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Senguash said:

It's a very general issue in the game that core mechanics aren't being rebalanced, we instead just get enemies that completely ignore them.

It's this either/or principal which sucks.

We don't get enemies with reduced cc effectiveness or reduced status effectiveness.

We get enemies that are immune to both.

To be fair, the core mechanics started it. Most mass-CC mechanics, and invisibility (or rather, Loki) meta before it, and nukes afterwards, are mostly about not engaging with enemies as much as possible.

Take invisibility. In solo especially, that might as well be invincibility. Nothing attacks you, and since the only drawback to invisibility is that you do take damage if you happen to be in the line of fire, then not having that line in the first place is pretty much just a win-button by any other name.

 

DE are going back and reworking enemy damage, the first time in half a decade or more. That would be the perfect opportunity, or just thereafter, to reduce the level of 'non-interactivity' in abilities, since with more fragile enemies, it's more reasonable for players to have the ability to sustain their lives off of combat prowess alone. Off the core mechanics. Then abilities could be reworked into actual combat aides, rather than crutches that do all the work for you at any single task (such as dodging enemies or killing enemies), or at least limiting their scope or function so there's still a requirement for players to actually engage in fighting. More like the Wuclone which, for as powerful as it is, is not a Saryn that turns the entire room into corpses with a blink. It's as limited as you are, it just lets you be in two places at once.

[Aldain]

I've actually been playing Vauban a lot more recently.

Makes it really easy to pick up the overzealous DPS maniacs who die to a stiff breeze because.

Also being Vauban as an Engineer on Railjacks just feels right.

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Nyx was bad even in the CC meta lbr

Nyx was in the God Tier you plebian. She and Loki were considered the most powerful frames because their abilities worked the same on level 1 enemies and level 200 enemies (yes, 200 was about the power ceiling back then)

[Cubewano]

51 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Nyx was in the God Tier you plebian. She and Loki were considered the most powerful frames because their abilities worked the same on level 1 enemies and level 200 enemies (yes, 200 was about the power ceiling back then)

You got one of those right, Loki was considered super powerful back then, but Nyx poor gal has always been in a lackluster spot even in the days of endless void. She just never had good enough utility. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Cubewano

[Orblit]

56 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Nyx was in the God Tier you plebian. She and Loki were considered the most powerful frames because their abilities worked the same on level 1 enemies and level 200 enemies (yes, 200 was about the power ceiling back then)

If I remember right...level 200 back then are the level 100s now.

[TARINunit9]

57 minutes ago, Orblit said:

If I remember right...level 200 back then are the level 100s now.

I think you're talking about the Great Rebalance of 2013. I didn't start until 2015, when Frost became the first prime to be vaulted, so 200 then was 200 now

Edited January 27, 2020 by TARINunit9

[(PSN)thegarada]

I would rather have CC like similar to Ember 3 & 4, instead of CC the entire map. The later can never be balanced. Either works, and trivializes any form of difficulty, or does not and leaves the frame useless. 

[kapn655321]

I love CC and herding AI. This is why I have to play in invite only to do things the way I'd like to do them. If you're not killing, you're not farming loot.. if you're not farming efficiently, lots of people lose their patience. The game could incentivize this differently, but if it's not markedly more efficient to goof around, the problem remains.

There are fundamental differences in playstyles between players, and the group who plays for efficiency will have their experience ruined. Likewise, if you CC, you will have your experience ruined by them having their experience ruined. So... If those aren't on entirely equal footing, then there's no compromise to be had. (The highly ambitious pay more to ease the pains of waiting, which is why, "pay to rush," is even an existing business model at all.)

If you receive as much reward from staying as you do leaving, then maybe. If stealth, looting, and CC to coerce the battlefield was equal or uniquely and understandably great in their reward, then this problem is solved.

On the topic of improving looting and CC:

• Improve the drops in containers and lockers, especially LOCKED locker drop tables.
• Have a unit that gets better drops the longer they live.

Create a logistics unit to keep lockers stocked.

Spoiler

These units (may) have Nothing to do with the mission, everything to do with the facility; spawns unrelated to mission, away from combat..
Their alert level should be totally independent like a Drudge Foreman or Capture targets. _{(Capture Mission, not Samaris/hunt.)}
They do their own thing, restocking/overstocking random empty lockers, and or scavenging from the edges and remains of the combat.
Alerting/aggro-ing these new units would make them call for backup and try to escape.
If they haven't dropped off scavenged loot to a locker yet, they're running away with it.
Higher levels have chance at Murmur progress for players with active Lich (because logistics guys are in touch with a lot of depts.) even in missions outside of Lich territory.
Letting them live longer improves their drops, and those within the facility, especially the more they pick up while scavenging un-alerted.
Occasionally have them call for valuable shipments to be delivered, that we can intercept.
...Something we'd miss out on if we speed-run, DPS, instead of stalking and herding our target carefully

On Stealth:

• If noise level was more than just, "Alarming/Silent," but instead in Meters, we could explore how to control those boundaries.
• Improvements to AI just Knowing where you are outside of Line of Sight for no reason, and the ease at which you lose them also would help tremendously.
• More hidden interactions within facilities that we can benefit from.. overheard information, documents to steal that don't come up unless you're there a while, repairs to sneaky-sabotage (like Untitled Goose Game).. More hacks, more looting, more reason to take your time.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by kapn655321

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

CC is still a thing its just high DPS out does its purpose , so if CC had debuffs and or other mechanics tide to it id say it could be useful but not dominate in tactics 

[kapn655321]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

CC is still a thing its just high DPS out does its purpose , so if CC had debuffs and or other mechanics tide to it id say it could be useful but not dominate in tactics 

There are some other things.. like ground finishers could be a bit more reliable.

I bet they don't get used because the first time someone tries to do it, and just can't get it to work, they never bother again.

Edited January 27, 2020 by kapn655321

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Just now, kapn655321 said:

There are some other things.. like ground finishers could be a bit more reliable.

I bet they don't get used because the first time someone tries to do it, they just can't get it to work, and never bother again.

well its like , cast power and look no damage or anything to down an enemy other then they have to stand back up slowly , in the prior key crazy survivals this used to be needed , but most enemies i face now are barley over 100 on average , its quicker to just hit a damage power which stuns and damages them , like embers new 4 , it hits damage/cc/dps/dot all in one go

[kapn655321]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

its quicker to just hit a damage power which stuns and damages

The example of ground finishers, it's as you mentioned with CC and DPS advantage in one. Existing mechanics would be just as quick if they were utilized. The only reason I can think that they aren't is ease of use.. which could be improved to be on par relatively easily. Hydroid's kit is an absolute MONSTER for setting up Ground Finishers with all 4 skills. NO ONE uses that, and ground finisher is Easy high damage.

I know from using this method for years, you're not Certain to get that ground finisher... and might look like a dingus swinging around for no reason. That alone is enough incentive not to bother. Cleaning up how easily and smoothly enemies are picked apart by benefits from CC, would breathe new life into a TON of functions.

Edited January 27, 2020 by kapn655321

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Just now, kapn655321 said:

Well, like the example of ground finishers, it's as you mentioned with CC and DPS advantage in one.

The existing mechanics would be just as quick if they were utilized. The only reason I can think that they aren't is ease of use.. which could be improved to be on par relatively easily.
Hydroid's kit is an absolute MONSTER for setting up Ground Finishers with all 4 skills. NO ONE uses that, and ground finisher is Easy high damage.

I know from using this method for years, you're not Certain to get that ground finisher... and might look like a dingus swinging around for no reason. That alone is enough incentive not to bother. Cleaning up how easily and smoothly enemies are picked apart by benefits from CC, would breathe new life into a TON of functions.

it really would, it would make usability more functional overall, but then like hydroid there should be tips explaining that benefit. its just not known or explained so people dont understand it. 

[AltheusV]

The problem with this is that the best crowd control at the moment is killing the enemy.

To bring CC back you would have to disable enemies in a very wide area or have some benefit to players from having enemies under CC.

At the moment the situation is "Right, they're locked down." 2 seconds later "They're dead", most of the time you were better off killing the enemy.

[White_Matter]

20 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Nyx was bad even in the CC meta lbr

Sadly this.

Even back then every other alternative was better.

[Wolfdoggie]

20 hours ago, rs_sakuras said:

True, but she's still the best looking frame especially with the Deluxe skin. 😄

Ash Koga is, but unfortunatly he's bad at CC and bad at clearing mobs and generally useless beyond hiding his appearance behind a worse version of stealth than everyone else. u.u

Edited January 27, 2020 by Wolfdoggie

[rs_sakuras]

38 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

Ash Koga is, but unfortunatly he's bad at CC and bad at clearing mobs and generally useless beyond hiding his appearance behind a worse version of stealth than everyone else. u.u

"worse version of stealth" Banshee would like to have a word with you.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

Up to lvl 100-120, yh without doubt, damage is king.

At higher levels though cc becomes more important.  When your ttk slows down, cc becomes more important.

If there was somewhere we could go to fight enemies starting at about lvl 120 then you'd see more cc frame usage.

For star chart stuff though, why would you want to cc enemies when it's actually easier just to kill them?