The Glassmaker puzzle is good, just poorly-explained

[GPrime96]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

There's a #*!%ing limit on this stupid ass resource required to participate in this asinine neutered jumping puzzle?  If that's true then nope.  Pass.

No more Resonance would drop for you if you reached Max so if that happens to you, you would know.

[SpicyDinosaur]

Geez, how do the MR tests not have more posts complaining about them considering the crying people have been doing because of this?

[WingR84]

vor einer Stunde schrieb SpicyDinosaur:

Geez, how do the MR tests not have more posts complaining about them considering the crying people have been doing because of this?

Simple:

• Movement is the same
• You dont have to farm things to try it
• You can practice them
• You respawn 3 times if you fall

[SpicyDinosaur]

3 minutes ago, WingR84 said:

Simple:

• Movement is the same
• You dont have to farm things to try it
• You can practice them
• You respawn 3 times if you fall

except some of the MR tests, most of them, are harder and you get one legit attempt every 24 hours. 

 

Do you really expect the game to through things at you with the same mechanics every time? They have to mix it up now and again to keep things feeling fresh. It's a little silly to complain about new mechanics with stuff like this.

[WingR84]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb SpicyDinosaur:

except some of the MR tests, most of them, are harder and you get one legit attempt every 24 hours. 

 

Do you really expect the game to through things at you with the same mechanics every time? They have to mix it up now and again to keep things feeling fresh. It's a little silly to complain about new mechanics with stuff like this.

But you can test all of them to learn about the "rules" for that test... and if you fail you have to wait 24 hours but you dont lose MR exp that you have to farm before you can have another try.

And no... you dont need to limit the movement to keep things fresh without any warning and link it to punishment if the person for some reason fails the test.
Some people just handle pressure in different ways.... to start a timer to make people act faster and change the excisting rules without telling is what triggers fails and people have all right to be mad about it.

If i tell you to flipp a pancake 5 times... time starts now...
Then most people will grab the pan and try to flip the pancake without even checking how much time you gave them. And i also dont think that they will check if i did something to the pan.. like making the handle lose, so the pan will fall apart if you hold it wrong and try to flipp with a lot of power/force.

It's the same concept of using a ping pong ball that someone has to head back to you... and while they are focused on something else (in this case there are a lot of things that people could focus on, because anything is new) and then you change the ball or an egg.

 

[SpicyDinosaur]

2 minutes ago, WingR84 said:

But you can test all of them to learn about the "rules" for that test... and if you fail you have to wait 24 hours but you dont lose MR exp that you have to farm before you can have another try.

And no... you dont need to limit the movement to keep things fresh without any warning and link it to punishment if the person for some reason fails the test.
Some people just handle pressure in different ways.... to start a timer to make people act faster and change the excisting rules without telling is what triggers fails and people have all right to be mad about it.

If i tell you to flipp a pancake 5 times... time starts now...
Then most people will grab the pan and try to flip the pancake without even checking how much time you gave them. And i also dont think that they will check if i did something to the pan.. like making the handle lose, so the pan will fall apart if you hold it wrong and try to flipp with a lot of power/force.

It's the same concept of using a ping pong ball that someone has to head back to you... and while they are focused on something else (in this case there are a lot of things that people could focus on, because anything is new) and then you change the ball or an egg.

 

I handle being timed very poorly, and I still think this is fine. Especially since it can be researched in advance to trying it. I went in blind and jumped on the nearest rock before realizing my mistake. I haven't been really playing, so I haven't earned back enough cephalite or whatever, to try again, but I'll research a bit more next time, and I'm not bitter that I failed.

[Felsagger]

5 hours ago, WingR84 said:

Harassing and stubbornness (you dont argu... you're just a troll) would be the more accurate words, because that's what you've done with me before, because you dont seem to understand how stupid it is to put the info on what to do in a mission on the start button (and you can only see it if you hover over it). How ignorant does someone have to be to not understand that my 40+ upvotes (with a long text that most people just didnt read.. because... people are people) and now this one with another 50+ upvotes AND YOU STILL seem to belive that you beating this the first time wasnt just luck.

Good game design teaches you about the rules or rule changes in a save environment and lets you retry if you fail (to make sure that you get the rules) before you can move on.

1) Warframe told us "falling down isnt a big deal... you respawn" (in the MR test you get 3 trys)
2) The timer also comes when you play elite sanctuary onslaught, but it comes to tell show you that you have to take the portal to move on. So when the timer comes the natural instint, based on Warframes set rules in the past is "i have to move on to the next place to trigger something". Where else do we have a timer? Well, we have it when you have to pick a relic... it's als a "hurry, hurry" situation, so spawning a 60sec timer (without explaining the rules in a save environment) is VERY, VERY bad game design.

There is no logical reason for a warframeplayer with 1000-2000 hours of warframe to know that they have to hover over the startbutton for the game to explain them the basic rules... and what you link there also doesnt explain the rules/punishment for failing.

In the past you got blueprints to craft "the key" to start the mission and you could retry it again if you fail... why isnt that a thing anymore? They even added a limit of 20 glass.... so even if you fail to notice this "secret mission" you cant have more than 2 trys before you have to farm missions again to get another try.... that is ridiculus

 

 The test was easy. You know that. 

 

1. First experience the game. 

2. Seek help or a video showing some hints about the quest. 

3. Save time reading when you are not sure what to do. It saves you fails, saves you time and saves you resources. 

4. Ranting over NW because few lines where missing is not a big deal. 

5. Report the bugs, technicalities and misinformation. The official thread where DE reads has people reporting the things you already pointed out. 

 

[Butterfly85]

Oh geez, I really wonder why some people bother playing this game at this point. I thought part of most games was figuring out stuff and not be utterly spoon fed by the devs.

Yeah, I'm one of the ones who didn't get everything first time either but so what? Cephalite comes pretty easy in game without going out of your way for it. Get back in and try again. Besides, it's not like there isn't a ton of guides out there for this now.

My only irritation is I wasn't able to focus on what the voice was saying when I was trying to do the jump puzzle

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2020-05-13 at 3:15 PM, Felsagger said:

 

 

Johnathan Blow has an amazing discussion on such topic. Does the developer needs to do much hand holding helping players cross the street? When is adequate and when is enough? if we do not allow the possibility of failure then we are excluding the satisfaction when success happens. Yes, documentation could happen in a witty way without holding the player by the hand too much. If I watch a youtube video the probabilities of failure will be much less.

What you are talking about is commodity. Does the developer needs to be generous all the time?  

I highly recommend watching Brozime and his girlfriend talk about her new player experience. Very insightful, also very very long. 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

 

 The test was easy. You know that. 

 

1. First experience the game. 

2. Seek help or a video showing some hints about the quest. 

3. Save time reading when you are not sure what to do. It saves you fails, saves you time and saves you resources. 

4. Ranting over NW because few lines where missing is not a big deal. 

5. Report the bugs, technicalities and misinformation. The official thread where DE reads has people reporting the things you already pointed out. 

 

And there's your problem. Having to seek external sources for information that should already be in the game. You're not getting that. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by (PS4)DoctorWho_90250

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2020-05-13 at 5:15 PM, Felsagger said:

 

 

Johnathan Blow has an amazing discussion on such topic. Does the developer needs to do much hand holding helping players cross the street? When is adequate and when is enough? if we do not allow the possibility of failure then we are excluding the satisfaction when success happens. Yes, documentation could happen in a witty way without holding the player by the hand too much. If I watch a youtube video the probabilities of failure will be much less.

What you are talking about is commodity. Does the developer needs to be generous all the time?  

That's not the issue here. The design is such that numerous players failed not because of any fault of their own, but because they weren't told what was even going on.

It's not hand-holding to tell you "Hey, this is a quiz!"

Warframe has literally never had anything like this. Not ever. What Warframe has had in the past, though... is jumping puzzles.

What numerous players have done is, they saw a timer on the screen, and saw a platform spawn in front of them.

The instinctual reaction that has been trained into us by the game is "Oh, this is a jumping puzzle!" With the added caveat that it's got a timer. So we instantly jump forward onto that first platform we see, not realizing there's others.

The first one I saw had the text "KALEET" floating over it. I had no idea what it meant and figured it must be some new clue, because it wasn't one of mine. So I rushed forward thinking "The NEXT platform I jump to might have more text that helps this make sense"

But there was no next platform. I fell and failed. I didn't even know I failed for a hot minute. I had no idea what happened.

This not an issue of developers not "hand-holding" enough. That phrase is extremely toxic. This isn't a situation where you need to try to put blame on players from an elitist position of superiority. This isn't players screaming "WAH, I failed, the game is too hard!"

This is the developers failing to explain what's even happening in a new feature they were very excited to put out. It doesn't help that the design basically tricks players into thinking it's something else entirely.

And players don't enjoy being tricked and then made to go farm an RNG resource all over again.

It's also extremely freaking lazy for the developers to just rely on players using a wiki to figure it out. This wasn't "players coming together to solve a mystery" in the slightest. This was the developers refusing to explain anything and forcing players to Google the answer.

If the developers could design it in such a way that we can just see and know what it is, they wouldn't have to tell us. But the game that's been designed so far instead taught us to expect jumping puzzles.

Edited May 15, 2020 by DrakeWurrum

[(NSW)Matt-S]

Personally, the biggest issue I think is that there's a timer.

Because there's a timer, you don't really try to take things in or try to understand what's being asked of you or going on, you just see there's a timer so you need to move forward.

I'm quite happy with the actual content (no real issues with the cephalite stuff or whaetver), they just need to get rid of that timer in the Weave, as you don't really get to listen/read the voicelines and try to take in everything since you're under pressure.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

OP is wrong.  This is just garbage content.  a stupid game of recall and even more stupid grind to play it.   I already have wasted god only knows how many hours of my life playing warframe.   But to waste time off my life for this garbage?  No thanx.   This is just horrible game design and even worse decision making skills from DE.  

[Felsagger]

13 hours ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

And there's your problem. Having to seek external sources for information that should already be in the game. You're not getting that. 

I wrote hints for a reason. 

Instructions depicted on ANY game itself SHOULD BE OBLIGATORY. Any developer who skips that makes me think that such developer doesn't know what he is doing.

Videos have an extra dimension called time. The execution of someone else reasoning a task gives you an idea of what is going to happen on the realization of the activity. 

[Felsagger]

13 hours ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

I highly recommend watching Brozime and his girlfriend talk about her new player experience. Very insightful, also very very long. 

Yep

 

49:37

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

 

This not an issue of developers not "hand-holding" enough. That phrase is extremely toxic. This isn't a situation where you need to try to put blame on players from an elitist position of superiority. This isn't players screaming "WAH, I failed, the game is too hard!"

This generation likes to take offense on anything. I'm no elitist or superior. I simply acted by instinct. I did a search and had my experience clean without hick ups. Why? Because I had a prior experience that somehow DE wanted to troll me. 

I know my people, that is why I try to walk with a firm pace. 

Quote

This is the developers failing to explain what's even happening in a new feature they were very excited to put out. It doesn't help that the design basically tricks players into thinking it's something else entirely.

And players don't enjoy being tricked and then made to go farm an RNG resource all over again.

It's also extremely freaking lazy for the developers to just rely on players using a wiki to figure it out. This wasn't "players coming together to solve a mystery" in the slightest. This was the developers refusing to explain anything and forcing players to Google the answer.

If the developers could design it in such a way that we can just see and know what it is, they wouldn't have to tell us. But the game that's been designed so far instead taught us to expect jumping puzzles.

I read the rest of your post. I know where you are heading. 

 

This problem is called subterfuge throughout artificial time extension with RNG drop chances. DE tried to cover the lack of content with a device that extends and buys them time for the adjustment of mission. This is forced time gating with RNG. 

I saw it coming because I read the posts here and jumped towards a clean solution. DE is trying to activate artificially their game but we are in the middle of a Pandemic. Content will be scarce whenever we want it to accept it or not. 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Felsagger

[Hollow_Knight]

I had a whole thing lined up about how Railjack tutorial should be a far greater priority for... all the reasons, with a little on the side about how it was actually quite nice to figure something out myself.

Then realised from the comments that Youtube IS Warframe's tutorial and I'm not OK with that...

[BRZZAFK]

It's not a puzzle nor good in my opinion. It's work like a pop quiz to test your memory which doesnt involve logic so it hardly is a puzzle and although the game mode is a walking simulator, the story most tell by the text not environment.

Edited May 16, 2020 by BRZZAFK

[greiff]

Not only its poorly (if at all) explain the fact that there isnt any warning or trial is the most annoying thing.

If the void appear more often, and its easier to farm those cephalite res, fine. But for people who got mostly an hour or so per day to play, i can barely get enough to play one round, and if you fall or on your first trial and pick the wrong thing, you are back on farming and waiting again.....

Its not a fun puzzle... not by any measure.

[Velvatine]

On 2020-05-16 at 8:49 AM, greiff said:

But for people who got mostly an hour or so per day to play, i can barely get enough to play one round, and if you fall or on your first trial and pick the wrong thing, you are back on farming and waiting again.....

Its not a fun puzzle... not by any measure.

This and what others have said about the currency. I have a little more free time with stay at home orders, but even then the grind is horrible. I wouldn't hate this puzzle as much if the currency was easier to farm or there was some way to not waste it on movement mistakes and/or bugs. Want to test my memory or skills? Fine, but don't doom me to one of the longest and most boring grinds of my gaming experience just to retry.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

A little instruction would have been nice, but I'm just laughing at the people who don't know how to jump.  I failed my first attempt because I didn't know what I was supposed to do, took almost no effort to get a second shot and breezed through that.  

[Methanoid]

On 2020-05-13 at 5:56 PM, Teridax68 said:

completely fails to communicate vital information to the player, leading to wasted playtime and associated frustration.

Warframe in a nutshell...  2013/2020

[Lichformed]

Wait, so after you get through the invisible mobile game timers for getting the Cephalites it gets even worse on paper and communication to the player? My god.

This might actually be the worst designed event on the user end we've had in years. Maybe ever.

[Gemini_Jenvas]

Warframes player guidance is atrocious and really needs work. Without the wiki this game would be horrible to play and that's just sad after all these years.

[32768]

No, it's very poorly made. It's actually blows my mind that they wanted to make Nightwave better and more engaging than mechanical execution of standard missions, but they made so many people frustrated instead. This puzzle isn't even hard, it's just that its bits are all in the wrong places: there is stupid unneeded timer, clunky parkour that doesn't work like it does in the rest of the game, general lack of UX.

It's not bad, it's just like all bad things that could happen to potentially good thing actually happened in this Nightwave, very unfortunate. Hopefully they can use this to actually improve Nightwave later on.