DE wants a Zero Tolerance policy and that's going to destroy this game

[Magus_Tahir]

Frankly we will just have to wait and see what they have prepared once they lay their cards out on the table. The Partner program is becoming the Creators Program, Players helping Players chat is going to be the default and region is going to be opt in and more to come from my understanding. Until then idle speculation on a hyper sensitive issue will lead to creating unrealistic expectations and exasperate peoples fears.

Lets not forget the internet and the world is full of crass individuals who take delight in using the rules to get people banned while throwing every logical fallacy in the book around like they were candy. And there is nothing more delightful so such individuals than zero tolerance policies as history can show in order for said policies to be effective in their own right it requires a informed user(s) of whatever medium it is applied in. This is how innocence and ignorance is exploited in such cases by those who know how to work a system to their benefit and creates a guilty until proven innocent environment which I believe most would agree to not be a healthy one. 

Still as a private business they have the right to moderate their ingame channels as they see fit, and if the changes cause blowback then they will have to take actions based on that feedback. It is a scary time of that there is no doubt that uncertainty lingers in many peoples unsure hearts on these matters. We cannot let fear chain us at the end of the day, and take each step forward even if we have to do so afraid.

I'll sign off on this with a quote from Mr. Fred Rogers that I find especially relevant currently. 

"The media shows the tiniest percentage of what people do. There are millions and millions of people doing wonderful things all over the world, and they're generally not the ones being touted in the news."

Be well everyone.

-M

Edited June 5, 2020 by Magus_Tahir
The great typo crusade continues.

[DovahkiinCat]

5 minutes ago, Technomagos said:

Can't tell if this is a Virtue Signal or a step towards something, very, very bad. 

Personal opinion: Both.

 

I'm wondering if there's anything in the TOS that says I can't have this as an opinion. If I get banned, we'll know how deep the thought policing goes or how far they want to push to control their game.

[Technomagos]

1 minute ago, DovahkiinCat said:

Personal opinion: Both.

 

I'm wondering if there's anything in the TOS that says I can't have this as an opinion. If I get banned, we'll know how deep the thought policing goes or how far they want to push to control their game.

I'm hesitant to drop the F bomb on this one, I'm sure you know exactly what I mean.
But stuff like this is so damn easy to be abused or poorly implemented and create a much worse environment

Not sure I can support a company who follows through with this mentality at all

[Aldain]

This won't end well, no matter how good the intentions are solely due to human nature on both sides of the argument.

Unless the changes to rules and reg are 100% clear, obvious and stated it can easily be abused for the wrong purposes by questionable people.

Vague generalizations of what constitutes wrong are what lead to this, and having a zero tolerance policy on top of that can only amplify the issue.

I hope that DE puts a large amount of thought into what they are going to have zero tolerance for and explains it rather than leaving it as a minefield.

[Urlan]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

This won't end well, no matter how good the intentions are solely due to human nature on both sides of the argument.

Unless the changes to rules and reg are 100% clear, obvious and stated it can easily be abused for the wrong purposes by questionable people.

Vague generalizations of what constitutes wrong are what lead to this, and having a zero tolerance policy on top of that can only amplify the issue.

I hope that DE puts a large amount of thought into what they are going to have zero tolerance for and explains it rather than leaving it as a minefield.

I would concur here, transparency and consistency is key in such a situation. Security through obscurity is not an answer.

[Hypernaut1]

I'm confused as to how zero tolerance will make chat worse and be abused. Can someone explain?

Strict yes, but worse? For who? 

Providing a guideline would be nice. But is it really that hard to figure out what is offensive and hateful?

Here's a tip. If you aren't sure if what youre saying is offensive- don't say it. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Hypernaut1

[LascarCapable]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I'm confused as to how zero tolerance will make chat worse and be abused. Can someone explain?

Strict yes, but worse? For who? 

Users are mostly worried about false positives, issues related to language barrier or lack of knowledge, or words being taken out of context. It's a legitimate concern, but we will have to wait for DE's stance about this.

[Pinegulf]

5 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

Users are mostly worried about false positives, issues related to language barrier or lack of knowledge, or words being taken out of context. It's a legitimate concern, but we will have to wait for DE's stance about this.

This and the growing list of offensive words. what's OK today is may not be so tomorrow. 

Also zero tolerance is generally poor idea. There should be room for honest mistakes as well as road to redemption.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

But is it really that hard to figure out what is offensive and hateful?

Some things are obvious, others are not.

Also it can come down to things that solely resonate as taking things wrong, or worse, assuming insult where none exists.

For example, around here there are plenty of bad suggestions and ideas, a well known one rejected by most people is turning Warframe into a Battle Royale.

Somebody says "This is the stupidest thing I've heard all day" to the suggestion, the suggestion itself is not well explained, but the OP of that topic purposely assumes that the person is saying they are stupid instead of their suggestion and considers it "hateful" to have it taken down because they disagree with what the OP thinks is the best idea ever.

If the concept of hateful is left vague then people can easily use it as a weapon or means to defend your argument from critique solely because the other person is a "bad person" and shouldn't be listened to.

You could even decide that I'm defending "hateful" actions by typing this out, Lascar could remove my post for the same reason (though I'm fairly sure they wouldn't), it largely comes down to perception when the obvious is already clear, and abuse of perception, be it accidental or purposeful is an easy way to stifle discussion due to emotional reactions superseding rational ones.

[Hypernaut1]

8 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

Users are mostly worried about false positives, issues related to language barrier or lack of knowledge, or words being taken out of context. It's a legitimate concern, but we will have to wait for DE's stance about this.

Well hopefully they provide a clear guideline. 

The Nezha issue was pretty touchy, but once I learned of it, I just avoided it. 

[Echowing]

2 minutes ago, Pinegulf said:

Also zero tolerance is generally poor idea. There should be room for honest mistakes as well as road to redemption.

While usually I'm of the "Don't be rude" stance, I do understand and agree with this point.  I don't think a zero-tolerance policy will "destroy this game," but I think a well-moderated system with clear guidelines and escalating punishments will do more for the community overall than zero-tolerance auto-bans.

[Hypernaut1]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Some things are obvious, others are not.

Also it can come down to things that solely resonate as taking things wrong, or worse, assuming insult where none exists.

For example, around here there are plenty of bad suggestions and ideas, a well known one rejected by most people is turning Warframe into a Battle Royale.

Somebody says "This is the stupidest thing I've heard all day" to the suggestion, the suggestion itself is not well explained, but the OP of that topic purposely assumes that the person is saying they are stupid instead of their suggestion and considers it "hateful" to have it taken down because they disagree with what the OP thinks is the best idea ever.

If the concept of hateful is left vague then people can easily use it as a weapon or means to defend your argument from critique solely because the other person is a "bad person" and shouldn't be listened to.

You could even decide that I'm defending "hateful" actions by typing this out, Lascar could remove my post for the same reason (though I'm fairly sure they wouldn't), it largely comes down to perception when the obvious is already clear, and abuse of perception, be it accidental or purposeful is an easy way to stifle discussion due to emotional reactions superseding rational ones.

Yeah I get what you're saying... But realistically, I doubt it's going to be that vague. 

I'm not up on all offensive lingo, so a guide would be helpful. 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

But realistically, I doubt it's going to be that vague.

In a perfect world it wouldn't be.

But until we see otherwise I personally will remain cautious, the road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say.

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

In a perfect world it wouldn't be.

But until we see otherwise I personally will remain cautious, the road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say.

Well let's see. remaining cautious is good. 

The sentiment of "no hate or offensive speech" is not a bad one though. 

Maybe I'm too optimistic that it's going to work as intended? 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Hypernaut1

[Circle_of_Psi]

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Maybe I'm too optimistic that it's going to work as intended? 

Yeah, I understand how this might be a great thing, but I learned to stop being optimistic when it came to WF/DE, Updates, Promises, etc, You kown the list and with the recent updates and how badly the year started with the event, RJ state and how New War 2019, it's no srupise most people lost their trust and care on such (Besides the die-hard fans). So, while no one is telling you NOT to be optimistic, all I think they to point out is: Be careful what you wish for and make sure you always take a grind of salt with you, as the last thing you want is to be dispointed or proven "wrong" and have folks throw it down your throat.

Nothing wrong with being optimistic, just keep them realistic 

 

Edit: This is coming from me who is always pessimistic, I'm sure you seen plenty of my posts around, we both been around for some time,  reading our post count and rep, so it's kinda a duel edge sword of being both things: Being optimistic or being  pessimistic and plenty of time's I seen something, think it will fail and only for it to not and well, I have -meny- people point it out to me, of course in a more joking manner (cuz I did ask for it lol)

Edited June 5, 2020 by Circle_of_Psi

[Corvid]

 

[ch0b1ts]

While we all know that "Zero Tolerance Policies" are for people that cannot or are unwilling to think for themselves, I'm more concerted about making donations to political groups.  Agree or disagree, as a business owner myself, it is a terrible idea to entangle your business with politics.  The last thing you want to do is alienate a portion of your customer base.  My company donates time and money to charities that train service animals, something that actually generates more business rather than drive potential business away.  Anyways, just my 2 cents.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

So region chat probably getting axed or better moderated oh well I stay away from region so it's never going to affect me

[Crasharr]

So, this is DE's way of chiming into the Georg Floyd situation in the states?? Is it only towards racial, cultural, religious, sexual orientation, social background and standing?? Wont be much left will there?!

I dont get it, will words like bun, muffin, rack, hump, lump, eggplant etc all be bannable?? Whats the cut off point?

I agree toxicity is the bane of modern online society but I dont think its up to any one single developer to start policing the interwebs. The basis for the toxicity lies in our society, not the internet. I mean you cant fix a leaking fosset by draining the oceans, can you !?

[Hypernaut1]

6 minutes ago, Crasharr said:

 

I dont get it, will words like bun, muffin, rack, hump, lump, eggplant etc all be bannable?? Whats the cut off point?

 

I don't even know how those are supposed to be used offensively. 

I don't know how strict they plan to be, but context should matter. Being offensive and then playing ignorant shouldn't be tolerated either. 

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned from several inflamatory remarks.

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, LascarCapable said:

I'm pretty sure DE will write down their own definition of hate speech once they will put these rules in place.

Hopefully that definition is NOT an extremely vague "speech that makes people feel uncomfortable", because that alone opens the door to abuse outside a hive mind with the same values. Otherwise:

- I don't support trans athletes in sports leagues of the gender they identify with. A new section/league should be made for them to compete.

- That's transphobic! I don't feel safe knowing DE allows bigots like you to play the game.

Yes, a rather specific example. But it applies because what is a measured opinion to someone can feel like a personal attack to someone else. Particularly when that someone else subscribes to the "listen" mentality as if the only reason you disagree is because you are not listening at best, or because you are XYZ-phobic at worst.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Jarriaga

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't even know how those are supposed to be used offensively. 

I don't know how strict they plan to be, but context should matter. Being offensive and then playing ignorant shouldn't be tolerated either. 

I guess the same logic as me using fudge instead of fck or schnitzel instead of sht, it can be used to offend people if they know what I mean with those words. Still don't think they'll ban someone just by saying those harmless words maybe only if they use them in an aggressive way

[Hypernaut1]

6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Hopefully that definition is NOT an extremely vague "speech that makes people feel uncomfortable", because that alone opens the door to abuse outside a hive mind with the same values. Otherwise:

- I don't support trans athletes in sports leagues of the gender they identify with. A new section/league should be made for them to compete.

- That's transphobic! I don't feel safe knowing DE allows bigots like you to play the game.

But do you need to discuss this in region though? Shouldn't Region chat should be somewhat light-hearted. There's places to discuss opinions like that if you need to. 

That example still seems extreme to me though. 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

3 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

You do know that most people playing Warframe are here to actually PLAY Warframe, rather than waste their time in chat, right? The people who get caught in the crossfire probably deserved it, and for most people, it won't have any effects, cause they are actually PLAYING the game. Chat bans will literally not kill the game, period. Cause the game is not about chatting.

A million times this. If you’re logging onto warframe just to mess around in region chat, that’s you’re own risk that you’re willingly taking. There are a million online chat rooms that don’t have these restrictions. This is a video game. Play the game and don’t say anything dumb, it’s not hard.