Anyone think Zephyr needs a rework? As well as other warframes?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Zephyr is OK , not the greatest frame, but there are worse. I'd say her main problem is that her kit specializes in Open tilsets,. and on the corridors that make up most of Warframe's locales, half her kit becomes unusable. that being said, I have no idea how to rework her kit to solve the problem, without the powers being incredibly boring. 

we need Pablo. only the saint of reworks can pull off such a task!

[EchoesOfRain]

Zephyr has needed attention for a very long time now. The people calling loudly for it are just tired of their voices falling on deaf ears. Zephyr was the frame that got me into warframe (mobility and wind theme are huge favs of mine) but after a while I noticed that she just didn't feel up to par anymore. Even after the revisit (which left even more issues in her kit) I really started to fall off of her as she collects dust...praying she gets a proper rework someday...

I also keep seeing other frames getting skills that would have been great in a zephyr rework. I know people were mad about Titania Razorwing, but I always understood why that could have been problematic. Then Hildryn 4 looked like it could have been a cool Tornado/Hover, eye-of-the-storm type skill. And finally, Gauss got a dash that works really well both indoors and in open worlds, which could have potentially been a nice Tailwind rework. DE keeps reworking Zephyr, but putting the parts onto different frames. 

DE needs to take some time and really give poor Zephyr some love. I've given up on the deluxe skin they teased so long ago. Even when they mentioned they may have to work on a separate skin for Zephyr, nothing more has been said about that. It feels like they don't even mention Zephyr at all anymore. She has one of the worst playrates, but neither players nor devs seem to acknowledge that maybe Zephyr needs some love. Oh, and at my first Tennocon two years ago I bought some of the cool Warframe pictures by Iam8bit I believe. I asked for a Zephyr picture and was sad that they were surprised and noted that hardly anyone had been asking for Zephyr at all.

Sorry for the rant, but I just want to see Zephyr in a good spot. She was the reason I even stuck around to play Warframe. Even with the "revisit" with PoE she feels like she's stuck with a badly aged kit. You'd think a game focused so much on mobility would give more love to their first real mobility frame...

[BRZZAFK]

Half of the warframe in this game either underpower or need a rework.

[kgabor]

22 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Half of the warframe in this game either underpower or need a rework.

Or underperforming because of a 'rework'. (cough cough Nyx, Limbo)

[AcceI]

13 hours ago, Senoirmeow said:

So I've been experimenting with Zephyr the last few days, min/maxing a few abilities, using all of her Augments etc, and compared to other warframes, new and otherwise she seems to have clunky mechanics with damage that falls of relatively early in the game. Though I did have some fun using her "Target Fixation" the damage fell off quick and it was rather sad to see the +27000% dmg buff vanish because i stayed on the floor too long. But I don't know, I feel somethings missing with her. I mean her damage resistance is good, so is her CC. Was wondering on peoples thoughts on Zephyr and other Warframes. 

Personally I'd like a Chroma rework also, he's strong and one of my favourites, just doesn't feel too dragon like. But thats just personal opinion, I think he works. Would be nice for his 1 to become viable.

I personally think Hydroid, Banshee and Nyx could use one also. Whereas others like Grendel just need stat adjustments. 

Chroma is fine...Chroma doesn't need a rework.  He's just isn't a dragon.  Call it something else and make an actual Dragon frame.

Please for the love of god leave Banshee alone.  

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

As I've stated b4 all frame need their augments dissolved into their vanilla power sets. Making what's already there and lacking a more robust experience. After that has been satisfied then make those ideas augments. 

All frames in general need more agency over power deployments while finagling their own skill sets better,  "Let me say that again steve", All frames in general need more agency over power deployments while finagling their own skill sets better.

[Kerberos-3]

2 hours ago, AcceI said:

Chroma is fine...Chroma doesn't need a rework.  He's just isn't a dragon.  Call it something else and make an actual Dragon frame.

Chroma suffers from the same issue that Revenant and Oberon have. He is trying to be too many things at once, and it's simply not working. He is just a one trick pony that barely follows his original theme(which, for the record, is in fact Dragon-Frame) due to all the tweaking over the years, and all it has accomplished is to make Chroma one of the most boring Frames in the game. On a similar note, Oberon and Revenant need reworks. Oberon's mish-mash of Paladin and Druid theme never worked in the first place, and ditto for the random Vampire theme Revenant got slapped with at the last second.

[Marvelous_A]

Zephyr's rework is the most weak@ss rework I've seen in this game. Her 3rd ability is the only decent one and the rest I don't even know what they can do. They have no potential in synergy.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Marvelous_A

[LordPantaloonsthe3rd]

Imo its not a bad thing if she underperforms compared to other frames. With the importance of killing as quickly as possible being at an all time high a CC frame will never compete with DPS frames. Id prefer she stay as is than risk having DE make some garbage rework or make the mistake of listening to people who just want to shove her into a boring dps role. I also dont think that not having every skill synergize with every other skill is a bad thing, synergy for the sake of synergy is dumb.

Aside from her 1 having less use indoors with the exception of some larger indoor tiles nothing about her kit is objectively worthless. 2 is an uninspired but it is still useful as cc and for its synergy with 4, everyone knows 3 is fine and 4 is largely fine. Some pathfinding and enemy holding issues aside it serves its purpose as CC and damage so long as you actually damage the tornados yourself like youre supposed to. The only real weakness zephyr has is vulnerability to melee and other things that bypass her turbulence as it doesnt actually provide any DR.

Things like explosions that dont get redirected far enough away, flame throwers, beam attacks like from the new Jackal and from Profit taker and those stupid sap ospreys are really the only things that pose any serious threat. Not that I want that to change personally as I'm not super fond of being able to ignore literally everything but I know that annoys people here for the power fantasy.

[TheGodofWiFi]

I'd say Hydroid needs a rework much more than Zephyr does. Unlike her, all of Hydroid's abilities suck. The only thing he was ever used for was loot farming with a Nekros, but since they nerfed that combo and brought other loot frames, he has been out of a job. Hopefully DE actually give people a decent rework with his deluxe skin and not another awful batch of tweaks that force us to use sit in that cursed puddle, or else no one is going to spend money on it.

20 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Hydroid? Could probably use a small amount of attention. Vastly improved from launch though.

Only a small amount of attention? Vastly improved from launch? What Hydroid have you been using Padre, as it sounds like a decent frame.

Seriously though, Hydroid needs a full on rework not a small amount of attention and he most definitely has not improved from launch, due to the fact that he hasn't actually had any major changes since his launch. Only a horrible and cynically timed "QoL" patch when his Prime Access came out that did nothing but force synergy around the one ability everyone hates (Undertow), introduce completely unnecessary and horrible charge mechanics onto abilities that were pretty bad in the first place (Tempest Barrage, Tentacle Swarm) and just made Hydroid even more boring and useless than he already was. He has had zero major changes to his abilities whatsoever, only horrible tweaks.

He is one of the worst frames in the game right now and his usage on the official Warframe chart show that he is even below Banshee Prime (yes he's that bad) in the MR20+ stats;

This chart was made before Khora got her loot augment and even then he was below Banshee. I have no doubt Hydroid has sunk even lower in the usage stats due to that. DE have forgotten about Hydroid so hard, that they still have not fixed a bug on one of his augments that was introduced nearly six years ago, namely the Tidal Impunity bug where it doesn't stop status effects on your Warframe if you recast if before the timer runs down.

Hydroid needs a lot of work.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

I would give Nyx's 1 a buff, making her be able to control more than one enemy. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I'd say Hydroid needs a rework much more than Zephyr does. Unlike her, all of Hydroid's abilities suck.

Causal argument...

If I were to take your chart at face value then Trinity and Mirage are played less than even Hydroid...That must mean they need to be buffed even more, right?

That's what your chart is asserting at any rate.

[TheGodofWiFi]

36 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Causal argument...

That's a very immature response, as well as completely incorrect. 

The majority of players, casual or not, agree that Hydroid sucks to put it plainly. He is one of the least used and one of the most unpopular frames in the game. 

36 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

If I were to take your chart at face value then Trinity and Mirage are played less than even Hydroid

Normal variants of frames do not count for stats if it has a Prime variant, as the Prime is always going to have more people playing it for obvious reasons. Trinity Prime is played far more than Hydroid Prime and that is very clear to see. Don't be disingenuous.

Mirage Prime is basically on the same level as Hydroid and like I pointed out, this chart was made before Khora's loot augment was introduced and the Nekros+Hydroid farming combo was nerfed, so he is highly likely even further down on player stats. Although I agree Mirage could do with some tweaks, but she is definitely not in the same position as Hydroid, gameplay and reputation-wise.

36 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's what your chart is asserting at any rate.

No it isn't. You've just looked at the normal variants of Trinity and Mirage with player usage stats lower than Hydroid Prime and made a disingenuous argument by pretending that the reason why the former frames usage stats are lower than the latter, is because they're bad, when in fact it's because they have a Prime version which everyone uses over the normal variant.

Trinity Prime towers over Hydroid Prime's usage stat and Mirage is basically on the same level.

Also, this is not my chart, it's DE's.

Edited June 17, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[(NSW)Reason]

Everyone needs to put GearsMatrix on an ignore list, that's his entire gimmick is whining about Revenant in threads like this. No amount of reality will ever take him out of his dream world. Just ignore him and let his pettiness burn out.

[Rakosta_Kai]

7 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

That's a very immature response, as well as completely incorrect. 

Fewer people play Hydroid—Therefore Hydroid must be in need of a rework... Is a causal argument. I'm not sure where maturity plays a role in that tbh.

While it can certainly be used as an indicative of a trend...It certainly isn't proof.

10 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The majority of players, casual or not, agree that Hydroid sucks to put it plainly. He is one of the least used and one of the most unpopular frame in the game.

Do you know the majority of players?...I've been here 7 years and I, honestly, couldn't make that claim.

...Where did you meet them and why don't I know you?

11 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Normal variants of frames do not count for stats if it has a Prime varient, as the Prime is always going to have more people playing it for obvious reasons. Trinity Prime is played far more than Hydroid Prime and that is very clear to see. Don't be disingenuous.

Mirage Prime is basically on the same level as Hydroid and like I pointed out, this chart was made before Khora's loot augment was introduced and the Nekros+Hydroid farming combo was nerfed, so he is highly likely even further down on player stats. Although I agree Mirage could do with some tweaks, but she is definitely not in the same position as Hydroid, gameplay and reputation-wise.

Couple things...

More people have Normal frame variants than Prime variants merely owing to availability*even with twitch drops* so your first argument is inherently false.

People looking to play Hydroid for the loot would only ever have done so if they were teamed with a Nekros to begin with...Making your 2nd argument highly speculative.

15 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No it isn't.

Yeah, it is exactly what you did.

Opinions are opinions...It's when you attempt to empirically support one or refute another with junk that I feel a need to shoot holes in it....Because you are, then, being misleading.

For example: @(XB1)GearsMatrix301  and I couldn't differ any more strongly on the subject of Revenant and that has been the case for what seems like years now. On the rare instances where we do disagree it has never been in regard to our individual stances though.

...So, If you think Hydroid needs to be tuned or revised, you have every right to that opinion.

That said, Don't come at me and say,"No, he definitely needs a re-work...Here's the proof" and expect me not to look at it or that I won't bother to call it crap if it's shaky. 

..."Cause that ain't happening.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Reason said:

Everyone needs to put GearsMatrix on an ignore list, that's his entire gimmick is whining about Revenant in threads like this. No amount of reality will ever take him out of his dream world. Just ignore him and let his pettiness burn out.

My hatred will never burn out. I won’t stop until he’s reworked.

And attempting to silence me doesn’t magically make Revenant not trash.

Edit: On second thought you should all block me. That way when I make a thread about reworking Revenant because he’s such a terrible frame, no one will object to it because you’ve all blocked me. Thus helping push for a Revenant rework.

Edited June 17, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[DrivaMain]

All Zephyr need is Grendel's and Vauban's enemy level scaling multiplier to her 1,2, and 4 and maybe some more control to her 1. Do that and watch Zephyr entered the relevant club again.

Edited June 17, 2020 by DrivaMain

[TheGodofWiFi]

20 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Fewer people play Hydroid—Therefore Hydroid must be in need of a rework... Is a causal argument. I'm not sure where maturity plays a role in that tbh.

So you're saying that me pointing out that Hydroid isn't well liked and isn't played a lot due to his very outdated abilities and gameplay style, is somehow "a casual argument" somehow? Please explain, because what you are saying makes zero logical sense.

23 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

While it can certainly be used as an indicative of a trend...It certainly isn't proof.

So the numerical data that DE have provided backing up the general negative opinion of Hydroid throughout the community is not proof that he needs a rework. Again, can you please explain?

24 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Do you know the majority of players?...I've been here 7 years and I, honestly, couldn't make that claim.

...Where did you meet them and why don't I know you?

I've been here that long as well and the general opinion among the community is that Hydroid is rubbish. Any rework thread you will find Hydroid being mentioned frequently and also there is very clear numerical data to back that claim up, as I have posted already. 

These are not good responses from you.

26 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

More people have Normal frame variants than Prime variants merely owing to availability*even with twitch drops* so your first argument is inherently false.

Wrong. Prime variants can be very easily found on the market place and the constant rotations ensure that there will never be a shortage of old Prime parts. So no, my argument is not false at all as it very clear demonstrated by the numbers DE have provided.

Again, this is not a good response.

27 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

People looking to play Hydroid for the loot would only ever have done so if they were teamed with a Nekros to begin with...Making your 2nd argument highly speculative.

What are you talking about? I already said that Hydroid was frequently teamed with a Nekros and that was his only niche. You've basically just reaffirmed what I said.

29 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Opinions are opinions.

Not when they are backed up by very clear numerical data as well as common knowledge. It is not an opinion that Hydroid is unpopular, it is not an opinion he frequently comes up in "Worst Frame in the game" and "Frames that need a rework" threads, it is not an opinion that his player stats are below Banshee Prime. These are all facts backed up by data. Pretending anything otherwise is just being stubborn for the sake of it.

31 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

It's when you attempt to empirically support one or refute another with junk that I feel a need to shoot holes in it....Because you are, then, being misleading.

You do know that its DE's chart right? You want to call the data provided by the developers "junk?". 

You have not provided any data to support your argument and instead have just dismissed based on nothing. Call the proof DE provided "junk" all you want, but that won't change the data. You haven't "shot holes" in anything, nor have you proven I've been misleading, as I've provided actual evidence that backs up what I'm saying, you have not.

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

That said, Don't come at me and say,"No, he definitely needs a re-work...Here's the proof" and expect me not to look at it or that I won't bother to call it crap if it's shaky. 

I'll come at you with solid proof if I have it, which I do and have done.

If you want to call DE's numbers "shaky" then more power to you. But all you're doing is showing you are perfectly willing to deny proof that's in front of you and that does not help your argument.

Dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as "casual" really does not help either. Your dismissal is based on "oh its just your opinion"as well as disingenuous arguments like pretending that normal variants are played more than Primes, which is provably untrue therefore your dismissal/argument is invalid.

Edited June 17, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[Rakosta_Kai]

10 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

So the numerical data that DE have provided backing up the general negative opinion of Hydroid throughout the community is not proof that he needs a rework. Again, can you please explain?

Yes, that's correct... You don't require an explanation insomuch as you need to stop inflecting what you think on what you see and simply see it for what it is instead.

For example: Were we to run a through-line to determine the median through that graph we'd see Hydroid just a smidge under the median and a metric ton of performance outliers.

But we shouldn't do that...

Why? Because popularity is evidence of preference... Not performance.

11 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I've been here that long as well and the general opinion among the community is that Hydroid is rubbish. Any rework thread you will find Hydroid being mentioned frequently and also there is very clear numerical data to back that claim up, as I have posted already. 

These are not good responses from you.

Were that the case there'd be a thread a week complaining about how bad Hydroid is...There isn't.

That said, Even I am not saying Hydroid doesn't need some work (in fact I said that I felt he probably needs some tuning in the initial post you quoted) ...I wouldn't be so brazen as to assert that the majority of the playerbase supports my opinion though.

I definitely wouldn't hoist a usage graph as evidence of same either...Especially if that usage graph was essentially specious to the point I was trying to make.

As such, You don't require explanations...

You simply need to stop:

• Assuming Cause
• Crafting a narrative to fit your assumption.
• Selling it as fact.

That way I won't feel obliged to, rightly, call your argument causal and you won't have to feel offended. 😁

[hendrix923]

I have a few forma on my Zephyr. Play him(?) a few times a month.  His 3 is useful for damage reduction. Everything else is pretty bad augment or not.  So maybe after Nyx/Loki/Banshee/Chroma we can get a rework on Zeph because there’s potential there. His 1-2-4 are kinda just like throwing wild punches at enemies. After that I really want Ember to get buffed, mainly her 2 ability and energy consumption. Ember P with a viral weapon should be top tier atm. Really gotta say a lot of frames are in a decent place right now since shield gating and status changes. Nezha is a monster. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by hendrix923

[(NSW)Reason]

Serious post: I'd love to see Inaros get a rework. I love the tankiness of the frame, but it just seems so redundant to have a gun platform in the game when nearly every other frame has a gun platform build, PLUS they get to do a bunch of crazy stuff. I guess if you just want to play it as a 3rd person shooter and ignore the magic ninja wizardry stuff, Inaros is your guy. But then again, I feel like a lot of potential is wasted. Keep the scarab armor, give him some more interesting abilities please

Edited June 17, 2020 by (NSW)Reason

[Yakhul]

Frost needs a look at his kit. He may not need it as much as other frames, but definitely his freeze and ice wave need a look.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I'll come at you with solid proof if I have it, which I do and have done.

If you want to call DE's numbers "shaky" then more power to you. But all you're doing is showing you are perfectly willing to deny proof that's in front of you and that does not help your argument.

Dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as "casual" really does not help either. Your dismissal is based on "oh its just your opinion"as well as disingenuous arguments like pretending that normal variants are played more than Primes, which is provably untrue therefore your dismissal/argument is invalid.

I am calling into question how you decided to interpret what the graph means moreso than the graph itself (Although that graph appears to be about 2 yrs out of date). This is because the way you decided to interpret what the graph means is subjective...Making your argument specious.

Allow me to illustrate for you just how specious your logic is as applied to this graph based on random comments in this thread...

In this thread you have had players say:

• Re-work Zephyr :    Graph says No
• Re-work Frost :       Graph says No
• Re-work Inaros:      Graph says No
• Banshee is Fine:     Graph says No
• Chroma is Fine :      Graph not only says "This is true" but also that Chroma Prime doesn't exist.
• Re-work Chroma:    Graph says NO
• Re-work Revenant:  Graph says this almost 2yr old frame doesn't exist
• Revenant is Fine:    What is this Revenant?
• Re-work Nyx:          The Graph finally agrees.

I don't know the age of the graph you showed; I am inclined to think it's rather outdated tbh.

That said, I do know that the argument you are using it to bolster is flawed regardless though.

But hey...You wanted explanations so you got one.

Now, can you explain the absence of Chroma Prime and Revenant and the numerous other frames from your reliable graph?

 

[Aldain]

10 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I don't know the age of the graph you showed; I am inclined to think it's rather outdated tbh.

I think that one is two years old...however the one from last year was so utterly unread-ably bad that I can't blame people for using that one instead.

...Seriously look at this thing, I can't tell what it is even trying to do.

How the hell is anyone supposed to understand this thing? It looks like an Atari that got run over by a tank.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Aldain