Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, kerespup said:

Any player with a good head on their shoulders would have realized how broken the Xoris interaction was and would have realized it would be nerfed. Neither Warframe nor the Content Creators need to refund your Forma.

They had Catchmoon and Kuva Bramma as straight-up examples of things getting nerfed because they were so desirable as to eclipse the rest by a wide margin. DE have been clear on their stance about it, yet people expect... No.. They tell themselves different. 

It was easy to see the nerf coming on day one when the Khora videos started to surface. Nothing new, but Xoris made it so easy and convenient that it made it seem like the build was new.

[Tyreaus]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Certain Warframe Abilities and Exalted weapons will reset the Melee Combo Counter only if the Xoris is being used.

Question, hopefully one I'm not repeating (Sorry if it has been answered already Megan!)

Do these abilities reset the combo counter entirely, even with efficiency mods? Or do they only reset the combo counter the same way a heavy attack would, factoring in efficiency?

I feel like making combo efficiency a factor would put the Xoris decently on par with other melees, which don't have the infinite duration but do have the lack of combo reset. Kind of trades between the two, yeah?

[Croeseus]

Clown department at it again! NERF OR NOTHING! Instead of actually looking into why situations like this happen, and some warframe exalted need help like Baruuk. You just Always go for the Quick and Easy Option. Why not just nerf/ completely make stat-sticking impossible, why just the xoris? The mire was already outperforming the xoris for khora. So why not remove it from helping exalted too? Just easy peasy lemon squeezy You don't even realize the xoris was not even close to being top 5 best stat sticks. I am not mad about the nerf, it's the reason behind the nerf thats so ridiculous and makes 0 sense compared to other Better stacksticks that let khora 1 hit level 6000 enemies with her whip...

[(PSN)GyroDriveSmasher]

I'm fine with the change but they should refund potato and forma/s. I'll just go back to my old Stat Stick with a good riven.  

[(XBOX)A Wasted Muffin]

I dislike the upcoming 'fixes' which are still a nerf to the gladiator set mods and Xoris. I like feeling like an overpowered space ninjas is fun. A small group wants this game to be like Dark Souls or Destiny 2 which are games that I dislike very much. In my experience, I have never told anyone that they are modding wrong. I never trash talk peoples for their builds or for their choices. I believe that if you continue to 'fix' things this way it will exasperate newer players when they invest 6 forma into a weapon. Most likely people will attack my post for stating 'my personal opinion' as a player of Warframe. I'd like to state this is my personal opinion again.

[vFlitz]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That's true for every single new weapon though, yet you don't see Stahlta, Stropha or Velox every time you go to ESO or Kuva Survival. 

What's different about the Xoris? An extremely convenient buff. A buff so convenient that people are OK with lower damage. I'm pretty certain that DE saw a usage spike for Xoris that was abnormally high even within the context of it being a new weapon.

No, the difference is that it's common to see Khora going into high end gameplay, and Khora is one of the frames Xoris is specifically convenient for. If Khora was weaker, you wouldn't be seeing Xoris there. If Xoris didn't exist, you'd still see Khora.

And people being willing fine with sacrificing damage for convenience doesn't merely speak of the magnitude of that convenience, but also of how big that damage will be regardless. If you know you're gonna kill everything either way, you don't need to go for more damage. If the extra damage was essential, a lot less people would be willing to sacrifice it.

[kerespup]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

They had Catchmoon and Kuva Bramma as straight-up examples of things getting nerfed because they were so desirable as to eclipse the rest by a wide margin. DE have been clear on their stance about it, yet people expect... No.. They tell themselves different. 

It was easy to see the nerf coming on day one when the Khora videos started to surface. Nothing new, but Xoris made it so easy and convenient that it made it seem like the build was new.

At this point Content Creators should just add a disclaimer lol to their builds videos.

[PieExplosion]

Tombfinger nerf punished early adopters. Xoris nerf punishing build diversity. Xoris was never the "indisputable best", only the most convenient and practical.

[Jolyne_]

I don't suppose you guys could just get rid of the stat stick nonsense altogether and just make those abilities mod-able like you did with exalted weapons could you? 

[NoMicTENNO]

Il y a 2 heures, KCToxic a dit :

Why not just give it combo duration when equipped by the frames listed above? So it can expire but someone maintaining the combo through normal play can still have big number?

Because that would be reasonable.

[Geraion]

Just now, Gilley said:

I don't suppose you guys could just get rid of the stat stick nonsense altogether and just make those abilities mod-able like you did with exalted weapons could you? 

Don't expect it. It would mean people were having fun and more options, and that isn't allowed anymore.

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

No, the difference is that it's common to see Khora going into high end gameplay, and Khora is one of the frames Xoris is specifically convenient for. If Khora was weaker, you wouldn't be seeing Xoris there. If Xoris didn't exist, you'd still see Khora.

No dude. I see Xoris in ESO and Kuva Survival used by players not using Khora. That's what I meant. They charge it and leave it ready in case they have to do a heavy attack. Of course this has nothing to do with Khora in particular, but it goes to show that the Xoris usage stands out by itself because of said trait.

5 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

And people being willing fine with sacrificing damage for convenience doesn't merely speak of the magnitude of that convenience, but also of how big that damage will be regardless. If you know you're gonna kill everything either way, you don't need to go for more damage. If the extra damage was essential, a lot less people would be willing to sacrifice it.

Which further pushes the convenience aspect even more.

[Cerikus]

Thank you! I have a lot of fun with this unintended mechanic, but I 100% support nerfing it.
Also I am happy about the way you are nerfing it.
Xoris will not be destroyed, nor the frames.

Good nerf. Thank you

[Victaghost]

Was this even an "OP" interaction in the first place or just a new toy people were playing with? Khora would still prefer her old stat sticks because she doesn't have issues with maintaining combo and the other synergies either wanted it because the frame has issues or didn't care for it anyway.

Seems like a kneejerk change to address a flavor of the month gimmick weapon (while they took half a year to address the Bramma lol).

[BladesStorm]

what about ppls investing hours farming kuva and using it on xoris? RIP. 

[Magus_Tahir]

1 minute ago, PookieNumnums said:

They play it, but do they PLAY it tho. Not like hardcore players. Not like 7 year devoted players. Not like those of us who would, in an instant, sell our souls to the orokin for a chance to ride the zariman, void terror survival not guaranteed. 

They might "play it" but some of us "live it". Eat, breathe, and poo technocyte. 

And while some may make the assumption that nolifers are sad and need to get real lives or whatever condescending viewpoint enables invalidation of certain perspectives, that type of dismissal has no place in a discussion of this nature so, i will repeat. 

They "play it" but are they PLAYING IT THO? 

What even are their goals. 

That should be an open dialogue between the players and devs. 

What do the devs want out of warframe, what do they want it to be, what state of existence do they envision thier created universe to inhabit and how ultimately do they want a) their created characters to interact with that universe and b) how do they want players to interact with that universe. 

It seems to me after all this time, closing in on 15k hours on steam, seven years of devotion, almost 6500 hrs in game, and over 1200 dollars in monetary support for the game and universe i love most, that theyre content with warframe being just a game and not a living evolving interactive alternate dimension where its consumers see it as a full fledged hobby. No, i won't go so far as to say esport. But to that level of fan dedication, i would love for them to desire that. 

Playing at the highest level, no not enemy level but player performance and dedication level, would i think put them more in tune with where the community sits, where they think the devs sit, and where they think the game sits and should be. 

 

Side note: its really disheartening that there is the running idea that this games in a perpetual state of "no fun allowed" and "take what you get because youre lucky to get what we give you". 

No, im not saying that IS the way it is or that I second that notion but it definitely exists among players and that, for my favorite game and universe, breaks my heart a little more each time i see it. 

QwQ

It's rather nebulous when you think about it Pookie. Listen to Steve when he gets going about the tech and visuals, Pablo about the UI and Frames hes worked on, and Rebecca when she talks about engaging with the community. I would imagine each member of the DE team is passionate in their own way. 

In many ways I think DE found out the hard way of the issue of the bigger something becomes the harder it is to manage. Look at a class room size of 10 students for 1 teacher vs 40 students to 1 teacher. 1 Teacher can't give the same dedication to 40 as they can to 10. The steps DE is taking now with Public tests and integration of feedback where it is reasonable is a step in the direction of Warframe really needs to go, could they have done it sooner maybe who am I to judge that.

The reality is, it is no longer feasible for them to have the same amount of community interaction they used to have due to the sheer scope and the fact as the game grew so did the responsibilities of the people making it. They have talked previously about how they are all wearing multiple hats these days. Due to the constraints of time the closest thing to open dialogue were gonna get as it stands currently are things like Shy's podcasts where one of the Dev's or Community team members sit down and chat for a bit. Very few if not any major studios do this. The closest thing I can think of off the top of my head is FFXIV's Naoki Yoshida and his live letters. Lets be honest if Scott came into this forum for an hour to do a AMA he would need two or three community team members and some tech staff and moderators cause if you have watched any of the chat streams on twitch it would be bombarded. Look at this thread it's a perfect example of why it is not a healthy idea to subject your Dev's to this kind of openness today in the industry. Even in spite of that I'm amazed they are still on Twitter.

It's not humanly possible to catch every single outcome humans are not computers we can try and do our best and fail, but its getting back up and trying again that matters. I can say DE failed sure, and someone else can say no DE did not fail they just found a way not to do what they are trying to accomplish scratch one off the list they learned something. It boils down to perspective and what is worth more in the end. Spending time in forums or working on the game they can't do both as Rebecca pointed out recently in Shy's podcast.

The entire mentality of how people approach the game and its creators is solely a personal one. The experiences, the desires, and the expectations are what drives that. If that means people feel disheartened because they don't feel the Dev's share the same passion as they do that's a perfectly legitimate feeling. However expecting them to change to conform to that feeling then that becomes a selfish expectation. 

I wen't on a bit of a ramble here since you took time to convey what you thought I don't think I answered anything accurately I feel you, I do. I also have worked in industries were workload, burn out, and demanding customers whittle away at ones spirit little by little until people become shells of their former selves. It is a sad, but incontrovertible truth that your greatest most passionate fans can also be at the same time your your greatest liability simply because they want and expect so much from you, and you can expend so much energy trying to pass your limits to do so you will fail on all accounts.

Give it time, if you truly love the game as you do you will be with it until you can no longer bear it. And who knows if we can't appreciate them at their worst, maybe we didn't deserve their best and vice versa. Its not a one sided situation. Let's just keep moving forward.

[Cerikus]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Vicghost said:

Was this even an "OP" interaction in the first place or just a new toy people were playing with? Khora would still prefer her old stat sticks because she doesn't have issues with maintaining combo and the other synergies either wanted it because the frame has issues or didn't care for it anyway.

Seems like a kneejerk change to address a flavor of the month gimmick weapon (while they took half a year to address the Bramma lol).

It was op. You have to realize, that normal statsticks usually needs at least one combo duration mod. Xoris allows this mod slot to be used by a different mod.

[NoMicTENNO]

Il y a 1 heure, RougeMagma a dit :

I don't know Xoris much. But Titania is not on the list. So her melee/gun will not (or were they ever?) be affected?

Her melee is not an exalted one, is an actual modable weapon.

[Thawfoot]

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

why don't DE think about these sort of interactions before releasing a new weapon, this isn't the first time and I'm sure it won't the be the last.

in a nutshell.... rip Bramma  magus lockdown.... tombfinger primary.... xoris

[Middox]

so instead of changing the enemy health/armor/shield values for hard mode, which is the only place where that much dmg would be needed in the first place, OR implementing a mod screen for every exalted weapon that does not already have it, they just nerf a unique interaction that made some previously very much underperforming warframes actually viable? can't say i'm a big fan of the good-old "release content without thinking about it once and nerf the hell out of something if someone finds an interaction so good it would require actual overall balance changes to make other options viable"

[OvisCaedo]

I wish DE could ever see obvious interactions coming instead of taking a month to realize it and nerf them.

well, whatever. a few forma wasted on a weapon i have no desire to ever touch again, but I guess Khora was already absurd without it. And maybe was still MORE absurd without it, it was just pretty convenient.

[vFlitz]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

No dude. I see Xoris in ESO and Kuva Survival used by players not using Khora. That's what I meant. They charge it and leave it ready in case they have to do a heavy attack.

Well, that way of using it is entirely unrelated to the discussion at hand and it's also not getting changed. So the only case you could make with that statement as proof is that Xoris is overused, but it's not for the reasons that are getting nerfed, and that's not what you've been saying the entire time.

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Which further pushes the convenience aspect even more.

Or it shows that it's Khora that's really strong, not Xoris, and the weapon merely had the misfortune of bringing that into spotlight. Kinda like a person happening upon a crime scene and then getting accused of being the murderer.

[Cerikus]

5 minutes ago, BladesStorm said:

what about ppls investing hours farming kuva and using it on xoris? RIP. 

Xoris will still be crazy good. The weapon is not getting nerfed only the interaction with the frames.

[Gamariio]

Hello DE,

First of all, I'm against the way you want to NERF the Xoris.
The XORIS is by far a very powerful melee weapon, it is much less so than the Kronen Prime, the Gram Prime, etc. especially since his Riven influence is quite low. What made this weapon interesting is simply THE COMFORT it brought with its infinite combo duration. It is not a "DPS" weapon unlike other melee weapons, its point of interest is to be a comfortable weapon to use.

In a second step, the nerf you offer is too violent: The combo counter should not reset itself completely with the warframes as you mentioned (Khora, Ash etc.).

There have been several very interesting proposals by reading the comments a bit here. I also add mine. Here are the ideas which seem to me much more coherent, with respect to the Xoris:

- Create a unique mod linked to the Xoris and which is rare (for example buyable from Baro) which allows the activation of the infinite combo even using the powers and weapons exalted.

- Modify the statistics of the Xoris by making it much less powerful (decrease the chances of criticism, chances of status for example), but keep the duration of combo infinite.

- More simply, that this weapon again has a classic combo duration when carried by Khora, Ash, Wukong etc.

- In the case of Khora, why not make his first skill modable, like a melee weapon? That will solve the problem. I am not limiting this proposal to Khora, but other warframes could benefit from this change.

For once we had a weapon with a really interesting passive ... Exactly removing the possible synergies of the Xoris with Warframe is really sad ...

Regards

[GREF_TM]

On 2020-07-02 at 4:15 AM, Maniac523 said:

Wait, it gets worse. Now only the first hit of bladestorm is going to gain combo count benefit? You can mark multiple enemies multiple times but only one hit will be buffed? There's nerfing something, and then there's making it utterly useless. This is the latter.

Just for the info, bladestorm damage is determined the moment you cast it and won't change in process. Losing combo, losing arcane effect, etc., wont' affect currently "deployed"/active bladestorm.

wrong, this got changed