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Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons


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Posted (edited)
On 2020-07-02 at 4:15 AM, Maniac523 said:

Wait, it gets worse. Now only the first hit of bladestorm is going to gain combo count benefit? You can mark multiple enemies multiple times but only one hit will be buffed? There's nerfing something, and then there's making it utterly useless. This is the latter.

Just for the info, bladestorm damage is determined the moment you cast it and won't change in process. Losing combo, losing arcane effect, etc., wont' affect currently "deployed"/active bladestorm.

wrong, this got changed

Edited by GREF_TM
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i was thinking that they made this weapon so people start using this type of weapons but guess i was wrong the glave has really no reason to use now thats why i never play a lot in the first or 2 weeks of update drop as they never test there weapons and always nerf stuffs after all investment in the weapon has been done 
rip all my forma
well now i learn my lessen soo i will only play any new weapon after 1 or 2 months of that update drop as rather the hoping in and playing it the glave was not even powerfull to begin with it was just a entry weapon to get started with the khora and other melee based frames soo you use more stuffs and then later shift to better stuffs now i guess it has no reason the glave really got me exicited over using khora ,barruk and more melee como related stufffs even i forma my khora and the weapons and barruk too just to see how nice this stuffs are but i guess everything is a waste now that it has been nerf :((

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Posted (edited)

What's the underlying problem though? Is it Xoris, or is it that these frames shouldn't have to deal with decaying combo counter that only happens because of enemy spawn rate, "reset pits" that shouldn't be there, etc. I guarantee, on my life, if I were to go do an exterminate at least one time during the adventure I'll get the red blip icon with something around 800m+ away until my next enemy. 

 

If we use Naramon, then we can't have Zenurik. Which, should show something like Catchmoon did for used focus schools. Here's an idea that doesn't make focus schools non-choice since the Vazarin "have a few million wasted focus points" healing change.... 

Make energizing dash the base node of all schools... 

Edited by I.V.A.R.A
typos
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4 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

It was op. You have to realize, that normal statsticks usually needs at least one combo duration mod. Xoris allows this mod slot to be used by a different mod.

Or simply Naramon focus. Which is no big sacrifice for an experienced player.

The main difference with Xoris being used as statstick is lack of involvement with rivens.. and riven trades are a considerable source of revenue. Coincidence? Depends on how cynical you are, I guess.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

 

Spoiler

 

Warframe0168.jpg

- He was Saryn.

- He killed more than double the number of enemies. 

- I was not using the Helios/Deconstructor stat stick.

- I was not using the Xoris, so no infinite combo counter bonus.

- I did 96% damage at half the number of enemies. That means I was literally doing over 60 times his damage.

 

- Now imagine the Xoris being involved, freeing me from Naramon and combo duration mods for even more damage or energy with Zenurik.

Come on dude. If that is not overpowered then nothing is.

Unless I'm missing some detail about your argument, all you seem to be saying here is that Khora is strong, her 1 is strong. Nothing to do with Xoris what-so-ever. A High combo counter while using Khora's 1 is extremely strong, sure. The reason you out-damage saryn is that it counts your killing blows, saryn has relatively low DoT damage and a fully charged Khora kills with hits well over a million damage.

You wont need Naramon + duration mods either. Xoris is a lesser option to rivens or specialised augment mods as well. all Xoris offers is QoL.

Edited by Oorel
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4 minutes ago, Middox said:

so instead of changing the enemy health/armor/shield values for hard mode, which is the only place where that much dmg would be needed in the first place, OR implementing a mod screen for every exalted weapon that does not already have it, they just nerf a unique interaction that made some previously very much underperforming warframes actually viable? can't say i'm a big fan of the good-old "release content without thinking about it once and nerf the hell out of something if someone finds an interaction so good it would require actual overall balance changes to make other options viable"

Most of the warframes were not underperforming before, nor will they be after. I am sure they are thinking about it, but I can guarantee that most of the warframe players would NEVER figure this out. The reason everyone starts using it is because content creators make videos with builds. That's why I can understand that DE can overlook a thing. 

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5 minutes ago, --PG--papa said:

i was thinking that they made this weapon so people start using this type of weapons but guess i was wrong the glave has really no reason to use now thats why i never play a lot in the first or 2 weeks of update drop as they never test there weapons and always nerf stuffs after all investment in the weapon has been done 
rip all my forma
well now i learn my lessen soo i will only play any new weapon after 1 or 2 months of that update drop as rather the hoping in and playing it the glave was not even powerfull to begin with it was just a entry weapon to get started with the khora and other melee based frames soo you use more stuffs and then later shift to better stuffs now i guess it has no reason the glave really got me exicited over using khora ,barruk and more melee como related stufffs even i forma my khora and the weapons and barruk too just to see how nice this stuffs are but i guess everything is a waste now that it has been nerf :((

are you trolling? 
The xoris is staying the same. If you like it, use it. It will still be crazy good.
If you use it as a statstick that's not using the weapon.

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Posted (edited)

Well, I understand the nerf and why it was done, but I do have a question.

brace-yourselves-wall.jpg

If players are immediately abusing the Xoris to buff up Melee Abilities and Exalted Melee, do you think that's indicative of the subpar states those abilities are in? Most of the Melee Abilities have to be buffed through an alternative medium to keep up with Exalted Melee (and Melee as a whole), and most folks are doing that through the pure lottery machine system known as Rivens. Others (like me) prefer to use Arcanes to buff up these abilities. Some weapon skins also have miniscule effects on these abilities, due to their innate bonuses (Mire with its 10% Toxin buff, for example), and while this needs to be removed as well, it's not as big of an issue so I'll be glossing over it.

I don't think Rivens or Arcanes should have such a massive pull when it comes to the stats of abilities in general, however, I also understand that people feel forced to use these options since these abilities do not scale very well. The Combo Counter is not enough when it comes to the stats of these abilities, especially when our Mods refuse to alter the base stats of them outside of Base Damage. I'm afraid Base Damage on its own has been shown, time and time again, to not work by itself. Yes, these abilities are not just pure Base Damage, they have supplemental stats like Crit and Status, but the same issue arises when the stats themselves are so low.

Let's take a look at the Melee Abilities first. There's Shattered Lash, Whipclaw, and Landslide (there are also more abilities than this, like Slash Dash for Excal and Charge for Rhino that should also receive similar tweaks, but to keep things simple I'm only going to discuss these three). To add further evidence to my point, Shattered Lash was JUST buffed so that it scales off of the Combo Counter. It is now July 1st, 2020. This ability has not received any changes or buffs since Update 22.20, on May 17th, 2018. It has not been changed since the introduction of the Plains and our first Eidolon, the Teralyst. That's ... a really long time DE, and while I understand the ability has not been changed much due to Vitrify's combination with Splinter Storm, this does not excuse the fact it has been two years without any direct changes to this ability. For clarification, I will be discussing these abilities and their stats at their max level, unmodded.

Shattered Lash has a Base Damage of 800 Slash or Puncture Damage and has a Base Range of 10 meters. We'll say the Attack Speed is roughly around 1.5 seconds, due to the cast delay. Shattered Lash has no Crit or Status Chance values.

Landslide has a Base Damage of 300 for the first hit, 700 for the second and 1400 for the third. It has a 2 meter, 4 meter and 6 meter Range progression, and has a 1 second Attack Speed. Landslide has 5% Critical Chance and 5% Status Chance and a 2x Critical Multiplier.

Whipclaw has a Base Damage of 300. It has an effective Range of 10 meters, but a hit radius of 5 meters. Whipclaw has 25% Critical Chance, 20% Status Chance and a 2x Critical Multiplier. We'll say it has a 1 second Attack Speed.

Galatine Prime has 300 Base Damage in total (60 Impact, 15 Puncture and 225 Slash), a 2.9 meter Range, and an Attack Speed of 0.8. Galatine Prime has a 26% Critical Chance, 26% Status Chance and a 2x Critical Multiplier.

On paper, all of these abilities sound better than Galatine Prime, or at the very least, they don't seem that far behind it, yet that doesn't explain why Galatine Prime outperforms them all in testing by quite a massive degree. It outperforms for many reasons, but one of the main reasons is because it has a far higher Critical and Status Chance, which is only true because it has far less restrictions on its Modding properties. There's also the fact Abilities aren't being buffed by Multipliers hidden in Stances, the fact Melee can use Heavy Attacks and alternative attacks like Slams, the list goes on. Abilties do have their own multipliers, Atlas' Petrify is a straight-up 50% damage increase, but that pales in comparison. Abilities have Augments as well, but most just exacerbate the problem because they tack on more Damage and think that's enough, again.

I think we should allow all of these abilities to be fully modifiable to shorten the gap between them, but with some hefty limitations. If you recall, the Combo Multiplier only has a 25% effect on these abilities instead of the intended 100%, so why not follow that line of thinking? Have Mods like Blood Rush affect Critical Chance, but for only 50% of the value. That should fix Rivens and Arcanes as well (again, by only taking in 50%), but I'll leave the specific number to whomever actually wanted to do it. 

Please DE, statsticks suck. 

TLDR; People were abusing Xoris because it was an alternative to solutions (statsticks) normally found for a much bigger problem, the fact Melee Abilities suck.

 

Edited by (XB1)Graysmog
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Il y a 2 heures, -AoN-CanoLathra- a dit :

No, it just means we have to go back to only using the Venka Prime, because it's the only other weapon with a positive interaction with pseudo-exalted weapons.

No build diversity is increased with this change.

Watch it be the next one on the chopping block 😄

 

At this point I wonder why exalted melee even costs any energy when they're being crushed by nerfs over nerfs to the point standard high tier melees give better results. 

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5 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Or simply Naramon focus. Which is no big sacrifice for an experienced player.

The main difference with Xoris being used as statstick is lack of involvement with rivens.. and riven trades are a considerable source of revenue. Coincidence? Depends on how cynical you are, I guess.

Yes.. BUT Xoris is MR4 weapon. You can get a frame which uses a statstick and at that point you have finished the game. CG.
Farming the focus for Naramon takes a lot of time and it's even longer before a player even interacts with it.

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3 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Most of the warframes were not underperforming before, nor will they be after. I am sure they are thinking about it, but I can guarantee that most of the warframe players would NEVER figure this out. The reason everyone starts using it is because content creators make videos with builds. That's why I can understand that DE can overlook a thing. 

Exalted melees, aside from Baruuk's, are underperforming. They simply don't offer performance that's satisfactory, considering they numerous drawbacks, when compared to regular melee. And one of the things Xoris does is making them a bit better.

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7 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Most of the warframes were not underperforming before, nor will they be after. I am sure they are thinking about it, but I can guarantee that most of the warframe players would NEVER figure this out. The reason everyone starts using it is because content creators make videos with builds. That's why I can understand that DE can overlook a thing. 

This is definitely the case. Most of the people I play with never knew about the potential until they saw Brozime's stream.

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I'm personally still waiting for the day Exalted Blade, Wukong's Staff, or Valkyr's talons become as good / worth to use as Serene Storm anyways without a nerf being involved.

 

But since this is a nerf thread I'll just keep my mouth shut as to why or how. #buffexaltedmelee

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1 minute ago, vFlitz said:

Exalted melees, aside from Baruuk's, are underperforming. They simply don't offer performance that's satisfactory, considering they numerous drawbacks, when compared to regular melee. And one of the things Xoris does is making them a bit better.

I do have to say... What does underperforming even mean? I don't see a problem when you can use them to finish literally anything in the game.

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My concern is that this change will be implemented sloppily, introducing a bug that functions as a straight up nerf to all the exalted weapons listed, or causes them to reset the combo counter of the normal melee weapon even if it isn't the Xoris.

I've seen such regressions introduced into Warframe before, and they generally don't get patched for a while. That's not something you want happening at the same time high level content is released.

So please, exercise care in reviewing and testing this change.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

It's our mistake that the infinite combo resulted in these scenarios, and I understand why there is frustration around it. As said above, we didn't want to make an overwhelming nerf to Warframe abilities/Exalted weapons across the board, so we decided to only change the interaction with Xoris directly. 

Forma refund atleast?

Because it is your mistake and we used our forma and time...

Edited by RAZORLIGHT
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2 hours ago, ItsDaKoolaidDude said:

Because how the nerfs have occurred and how often they've been occurring and the pattern in which we weren't supposed to enjoy in OUR way whereas they wanted us to enjoy in THEIR way.

Our way meaning OP BS all the way, their way meaning nerf and content full of bullet sponges that we have no clear way of dealing with.

Sounds like a conflict between a false friend and open enemy

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Just now, RAZORLIGHT said:

Forma refund atleast?

I honestly don't think Warframe or the Content Creators that popularized the interaction/build are liable for a refund, for people's own desire to try out an obviously broken interaction.

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1 minute ago, Cerikus said:

Yes.. BUT Xoris is MR4 weapon. You can get a frame which uses a statstick and at that point you have finished the game. CG.
Farming the focus for Naramon takes a lot of time and it's even longer before a player even interacts with it.

The Second Dream is available from MR3 iirc and gives you one of the stronger melees in the game for free. Of course there's also the Hek at MR4 which can carry through the starchart. I don't get this argument that "Oh it's MR4 you win the game after getting it!" when there's a lot of other things you can get at that time that are possibly better.

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1 minute ago, RAZORLIGHT said:

Forma refund atleast?

Because it is your mistake and we used our forma and time...

Your forma is not going anywhere. You can still use the frames with forma. And Xoris will stay crazy good too. Only the interaction is going away.

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