(PSN)sion4ever Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Am 12.8.2020 um 19:27 schrieb [DE]Rebecca: Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules? It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused. I'd argue that the current outcry is mainly due to this reasoning. This goes against everything this system was supposed to be. Given the pool of abilities there would be obvious contenders for top choices regardless which abilities were chosen. For one this shows how utterly useless some abilities are in general. Secondly, the Warframe kits are very skewed in this regard as not all of them offer balanced synergy. But even if there is proper synergy in the kit itself, due to optimization for endgame or specific content some abilities remain unused. The Helmnith system would help address this and offer more variation. It could also become a band-aid for those Frames that are lacking in some regard (eg. survivability) or even create new synergies. Although even the latter was killed before release (eg. Fatal Teleport + Marked for Death). Obviously, optimization is the goal for many players. And even if you don't want to encourage META, it will always remain a part of this game. Don't forget that this isn't some boogeyman elitist term. It just means Most Effective Tactics Available. Some abilities will always be better than others in specific content, hence they're META. This should be embraced, not discouraged. One solution could even be to spread out META by tuning abilities to certain modes when creating them. If there are abilities that are good for Survival, Exterminate, Defense, and so on then they become solid picks for builds that are tuned to that. But, I digress. The point is the reasoning stated for the nerf is utter garbage. If the goal was to make all subsumed abilities be picked evenly across the board then this system is doomed to be dead in arrival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benaful Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 hace 5 horas, QuinnCarter dijo: Yeah, it sucks that the seemingly best abilities for subsuming are getting nerfed before the system is even out, but we don't even know by how much yet. And regardless of the nerfs, the functionality of those abilities are gonna remain same. Dispensary is still going to give you more energy than you used to make it, Warcray still has its augment, and Roar is, well, Roar. they should make roar augument proc 6 puncture procs not 1 and reeduce roar cost to be spamable, but i strongly agree whit you felow tenno, i am a mr27 and i cant wait to add roar to my trinity elemental guard to my saryn and other stuff. even if it is a little worse, is an upgrade 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetAnubis Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 12 minutes ago, Lutesque said: That sounds about right 😞 Empowered Quiver is my favourite Augment and there was a time when I would let everyone in my Squad know that Dashwire buffs Crits in addition to placing my Wires in areas that offer the best Tactical Advantages... nobody cared... Nobody jumped on my Wires... Now that the Helminth is a thing all of a sudden it's too powerful ? It's clear whoever is against Dashwire doesn't play Ivara 😛 really for real tho! feal free to go join the convo or read for some laughs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 39 minutes ago, HatedByLifeItself said: Meta ? You lost me there. You can try to experiment as much as you want with Nyx's 1, no one's holding you back. I don't care about what people do to their frames, but you can't come to me and say that all the abilities are good because we can test them out. What do you mean by "good"? Every ability has a "use". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasahbii Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 gg, i feel like the MR reduction is only going to hurt the newer players :\ how is it that people can feed hard earned warframes to this "experienced players only" content before they are able to auto slot ayatan sculptures?? seems a little ridiculous. I hope DE's next move when it comes to finishing old content is to just go and give all these old frames some love and bring them up to the level of the rest of the cast. I think all of the new frames are leagues better in design and gameplay. Not only are the newer frames GOOD but they are FUN to play and their kits work really well together and have synergy. Then on the older frames you really just use them for the one or maybe even 2 abilities that are useful. If DE starts to prioritize reworking/tweaking the old frames not only would they be more fun to play in general, but it would also change the way they interact with all the content we already have which kind of pseudo "adds content" into the game. (at least thats how i feel) in any case- DE please dont cut off the heads of the tall to make them equal to the small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HatedByLifeItself Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 il y a 9 minutes, (PS4)Madurai-Prime a dit : Every ability has a "use". If that was the thought process of DE and everyone, 0 reworks would have been done over 6 + years. Way to go, nice argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 12 minutes ago, HatedByLifeItself said: If that was the thought process of DE and everyone, 0 reworks would have been done over 6 + years. Way to go, nice argument Every game, everywhere, has reworks, constantly, over time. Way to go, nice retort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 17 minutes ago, Wasahbii said: gg, i feel like the MR reduction is only going to hurt the newer players 😕 how is it that people can feed hard earned warframes to this "experienced players only" content before they are able to auto slot ayatan sculptures?? seems a little ridiculous. No... What's ridiculous is having Auto Slotting Sculptures being MR locked in the first place. I have both Cyan and Amber stars... Just let me auto slot the damn thing already 😐 Also I think what's going to hurt new players even more is being stuck with Slash Dash, Radial Javelins, Pull and Crush with no way of getting rid of these rubbish abilities. I think what's going to hurt new players is the excessive MR grind thats just going to make them burn out But that's just me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selig_fay Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lutesque said: Also I think what's going to hurt new players even more is being stuck with Slash Dash, Radial Javelins, Pull and Crush with no way of getting rid of these rubbish abilities. On the other hand, they will still be stuck with soul punch, terrefy, desecrate and shadow of the death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGN_Maverick Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Honestly this thread has become funnier than the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)jaggerwanderer Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Roar giving a 20% damage increase with 200% power strength? Well.. people are still going to take it over decoy. Why? Because it does extra damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper462 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said: Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules? It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused. So I'm gonna make a few assumptions based on your wording with this, in that you want players to have more meaningful choices, as opposed to a few "must pick" abilities. That sounds awesome to me, that being said I think this is the wrong way to go about this, because while there are definitely a few stand out abilities that any warframe could make use of, there are quite a few more abilities on this list that are just completely worthless for anything other than using as a joke or (even more rarely) because a player enjoys the flavor of the ability (i.e. mind control) and I feel it would do a lot more to help the variety of compelling choices if instead of reducing the effectiveness of the few most compelling options, you instead brought up or change some of the worst abilities to make them more compelling of a choice. In addition, there is always going to be a small list of abilities that get used significantly more than the rest, this isn't inherently a bad thing as long as other abilities on the list are still being used a decent amount (what that number is and how much I don't know, I'm not a statistician) but making the "good" abilities worse isn't going to make people use the bad abilities anymore. To further reiterate my point, no matter how badly the "top" abilities are nerfed, (and I don't mean to say you are nerfing those abilities, we don't even know what the numbers are yet) it will never make abilities like, Decoy, Mind Control, Ice wave, Reave, Airburst, or Pull enticing to me in the slightest, as they will never be compelling options as they currently stand and I think the best way to increase variety would be to buff and/or rework these abilities. For example Mag's Pull could be a very compelling option if it's ability to make enemies drop energy orbs when killed worked like a debuff that lasted a short while instead of only procing when you kill an enemy with the ability itself especially since it doesn't scale into late game at all, i.e. if you hit a group of enemies with her Pull those enemies will have a debuff that lasts for X seconds, lets say 5 -10 it doesnt have to be long, that if you kill them they will have that ~25% chance of dropping an energy orb, and that would make it a super interesting option for a lot of people. This would also give players another compelling option for energy generation as opposed to Dispensary, as while Dispensary offers health and ammo in addition to energy, it's a little slow and it's stationary, meanwhile Pull you can use on the move and get energy more immediately thereby making a meaningful choice for players between the two. Now I don't think every ability is as easy a fix as that, and indeed I think some abilities may not be salvageable as they are, but I think changing a few of the worse abilities like this would be sufficient to offer players a few different meaningful and fun abilities to chose between. EDIT: I Think a great way to start would be to look at those stand out abilities and find other abilities that are similar but not as good and bring them up a little closer (or change a frames current ability offering), a great example is the one I stated above of Dispensary vs. a buffed Pull. Another example could be that Mirage's Eclipse gives a potentially sizable damage reduction as well as a damage buff, although it is pretty finicky to get what you want, you could also change Gara's ability to her Splinter Storm (especially since her Spectrorage is just plainly not useful) thereby giving players the option between a very reliable defense buff vs. a less reliable defense buff that can also buff damage if used properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandolin53 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Do yourself a favour devs and watch Brozimes video on the changes you just made, because this is a joke This system will always have vastly superior abilities has options until you buff the crap ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj-Cero Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I don't care if you're MR1 or MR29, nor do care about how many hours you've played. That doesn't determine a player's "skill". However I do think that MR should be used to gate some content. Gives reason to do it. I was fine with Helminth being behind a MR15 wall, MR8 is just too low with how they originally claimed this content to be imo. This game is basically a "Space NinjaFarm Simulator". MR represents that overall grind. And there is currently no real incentive to do it for the most part. When I do hit that MR30 mark am I going to think to myself, "Was it worth it?" This has nothing to do with "skill". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShimmerDoll Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 They should just make it so the abilities work as the should by default in Steelpath (where things are harder) and on the open worlds (harder missions). It would sure help people like me stuck soloing the entire game because bad connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 41 minutes ago, selig_fay said: On the other hand, they will still be stuck with soul punch, terrefy, desecrate and shadow of the death. Exactly... Soul Punch has to go !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgnitionPlays Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 The terrible abilities should receive buffs to bring them in like with the quote on quote more desirable ones instead of nerfing them, if the worry is people picking some abilities over others than that's a failure on the list not the players wants, at least 50% of the abilities on that list aren't even regularly used by the people playing the frames themselves when the ability is so bad not even the frame its originally from wants to use it what makes you think that people would want to put it onto something else. also i would rather mount the skulls of the sacrificed warframes on the helmith wall flowers in a space game based around murdering everything in site is kinda lame, or at least give us the option to pick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaotis Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 hace 5 horas, keen dijo: /s Seriously though great job DE, this kind of system is a breath of fresh air that has me excited and theorycrafting all over again with all of the new potentials this brings. Don't let the rabble get you down. Maybe i'm wrong... but the idea of customization on warframes came about when the first modular weapons apeared in PoE some years ago... not a real original idea... hace 5 horas, keen dijo: 2: Everyone complaining about Roar being OP, so throw the Riven system at it. The more people sacrifice and install an ability, the less effective it is. Less used abilities get stronger. Self balancing! No one complained about anything... the system is not out yet... so theorycrafting is not real feedback. hace 5 horas, keen dijo: 1: I think MR15 is fine for the Helminth system actually, I feel like this is more of an endgame kinda system. Less complexity for new players, since I'm running a new player through in my clan and realizing how much stuff has changed. Infact why not make it MR20 to really make players feel like they earned it! The lev thing is a real problem imho ... new players have enought of a hard time understanding wtf is the stalker , zanuka , gustag 3 , invasions , night wave , syndicate farming and how it works, eidolon farming , focus farming , focus lenses and dif quality , how to actualy farm affinity, how to bulelt jump etc... now trow this system at them as well. hace 1 hora, Lutesque dijo: As long as Affinity Farming sucks ass I think MR 15 is too high...also Endgame is overrated. That's not realy true ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrofZelen Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Thank you for nerfing the top 6 abilites that we wanted, DE... before even releasing the Helminth update, the abilities are being made weaker... Why!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChossetteDivine Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Il y a 8 heures, Isokaze_BestKaze a dit : Stick the augment to it. Null Star w/ Augment will absolutely slaps on Banshee for example. Assuming you mod Banshee for High Duration / Low range to maximise the use of Silence (since it stops working after 5-6 seconds of CC), you can easily get the 18 stars for max DR, the augment to recast it periodically, and still keep sonar augment for high damage. This is proving my point, those ability can't be standalones, you need a power slot and a mod slot, where the "good ones" didn't require a whole build tweak. Since we actively chose to replace abilities + that we have to sacrifice a frame and a ability slot + that we are expected to spend time to achive our goal to get , for say, Null Star on Banshee, it doesn't feel right to nerf the ones people were excited about. And building Banshee around her Silence, neglecting her advantages (Sonar, armor strip with Sonic Boom, fodder clear and CC with Sound Quake) seems very odd, while it is possible and I do not discard the idea, it just points out the flaw of the system, we can't "just" chose an ability to slap on Banshee because we want to replace one, and feel it will perform well without a serious tweak in mods or playstyle, we were told we'd get something and it got lessened creating this thread's explosion. Last thing about Null Star, its DR is only on Health, since we got shield gating and Augur mod set, and a lot of options to stay alive in a game that has been made easier overall, you really don't need Null Star that much in the first place, on any frame, because weak frames usually already have either something to stay alive, wether it's CC, invisibility, native DR or high DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrofZelen Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 4 hours ago, GrofZelen said: Thank you for nerfing the top 6 abilites that we wanted, DE... before even releasing the Helminth update, the abilities are being made weaker... Why!!!! Just check out the comments on Tactical's vid to see how the playerbase feels about this. As for dropping the MR requirement to 8??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamonLLLL Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Martinc4 said: Loki and decoy .... Why not stealth ability ... or mirage and eclipse ... Why not clones ... I want you to think over what you said for a second Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iSiawPrime Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 There are about 10 abilities that are worth using, 6 of them being nerfed already, and 10 or so abilities that are completely useless without the original frame... so if the intention of these added rules was to balance the choices, why not buff the abilities that need it? Balance is achieved by nerfing but also by buffing stuff that needs it. There are 2 sides to the coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Snipersmiley Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, RamonLeeYJ said: I want you to think over what you said for a second I think they're talking about Loki's invis and Mirage's Hall Of Mirrors...either that or wukong twin XD. Side note I'm hoping they take a different approach to this system. I'm praying they start changing the mentality of nerfing over buffing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanicAS Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 If your going to nerf abilities(for helmith, I am aware the base frames abilities will be untouched) into the ground for potentially existing on other frames, just don't use them? The stipulation of damage buffing abilities having to swap out for other damage buffing abilities was fine, made since and everyone was(most were) fine with that rule. This however is just silly, trying to balance a game where there's such an uneven balance. Also to say roar on inaros, excalibur, nyx, wukong, or any other frame is a "broken combination" is utterly ridiculous when you consider the frame roar comes from. Rhino IS a tank, has armor that negates all incoming damage and is immune to status effects when that armor is active. Rhino has EXCELLENT, boss affecting, CC. Rhino is one of the few frames that gets a full use out of their kit, with their one and two being used for armor, their three for a damage boost, and their four to not only cc but to replenish that armor(with augments of course). Rhino is a BEAST, but he doesnt get used all to much does he? Maybe in spikes here and there, hell theres probably a spike in usage for the lehpantis speed run alert right now. He hasn't "ruined" the game, has he? To think roar or ANY OTHER ability you have(and will) chose to nerf is some how going to be massively "gamebreaking" is utterly silly. (outside of actual bugs) People were excited to use their favorite frames in new ways, plain and simple. You(DE) preemptively nerfed because of that excitement. Don't wonder why suddenly that excitement turned to fire and pitchforks. We eagerly await the numbers on these changes, because everyone knows your not going to revert this decision. Lets hope this decision isn't indicative of what your going to do going forward. And lets hope it was all worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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