The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[LixSin]

3 minutes ago, ttylerrocks4u said:

Ok but hear me out. Would u feel better they do it now vs after u subsume those abilities and then them tell you ?

I'd feel better if they didn't do it at all, and instead finally fixed all those crappy abilities, which should've happened years ago.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Kaotyke said:

You're going against META.

You're trying to be different.

You're leaving the pack _mentality

You're now far from the pack _mentality. Walking upon its edge.

Therefore, you're edgy.

Oh gotcha.....Ok....whatever dude.

[killerJoke66]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

I'm curious as to how heavy handed the nerfs have been. if they're like only half as effective as their proper versions, then... oof. if it's just nerfed by 25% then I think it may still be salvageable. 

if they dont cripple the larva more than 50% range , its all gucci 🤞

[Kaotyke]

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, Methanoid said:

if someone has the choice of a heavily nerfed Rhino Roar or fitting a bog standard Decoy or other dull/pathetic ability, its pretty obvious your still going to take the nerfed but still godlike abilities, there simply isnt any real choice involved.

Yeah, only if they don't nerf Roar into the ground. If the nerfs aren't actually going to make Roar a less likely choice for a lot of people (assuming that it's going to be the de facto choice for a lot of people), then that means they aren't severe enough nerfs. Wouldn't that mean that DE would nerf Roar enough to where people still doing go with it? I mean, you act like DE can't nerf Roar to the point where it is no longer godlike. You're proving why trying to nerf it is a problem in the first place. Unless the nerf is significant enough that Roar is no longer godlike, DE's changes are meaningless. So, the logical thing for DE to do is to nerf it to the point where it is no longer godlike.

[SweetAnubis]

@[DE]Rebecca

 

they arent the overwhelming choice just because they are way to powerful they are the overwhelming choice because the rest of the choices are terrible! most of the other choices just feel like baskin robins with 31 flavors of basic damage attack. if you want those 5 to not be the overwhelming choice, then instead of continuing to nerf them further either buff some of the other abilities to make them worthwhile or switch them to abilities that give more variety. if the choice is basic damage attack number ## or uber buffs of course everyone is going to go for the buffs that dont require anything but replacing useless skills with abilities that dont even require mods to buff. its just free buffs at that point.

 

that bein said if we had abilities in the list that filled other nitches such as snowglobe for defense, ripline or dashline for travel etc then people would have more reasons to not use 5 abilities. if the rest are basically all the same of course they wont be used

[ZloGlaZ]

aaand they nerfed it already!

Remember the rule never forma/invest into something until 4 weeks later.

[Ozzyman89]

16 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Please stop with the Harrison Bergeronning your game. 

"People would like these, so let's make them bad so they will choose other things" should not be a design ethos. 

If you're going to hobble certain powers and not others, just make a totally new series of powers.

 

Honestly i think this is genius. Rather than piss off vets and all of this crying, create a separate subsume ability for each frame. an ability that kind of encapsulates the warframe that was subsumed. 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

What if I told you guys that you could still trivialize any content in the game right now, and you don't even need to put Roar on your Wisp?

Helminth is gonna be great for creative building and gameplay. If you're upset that it isn't gonna power creep as hard as you hoped, fear not, there will still be plenty of ways for you to enjoy "press any key to receive REWARD" style gameplay.

[Chroia]

On 2020-08-19 at 9:03 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal.

Alright then, let's do this.

People will disagree, ymmv, etc.

Assuming existing (and 0 gauge where applicable) functinality on all abilities.
Assuming Helminth abilities have no cooldown.
Not gonna insert build screenshots unless asked - it's a hassle.

Ash - 
Build 1: 144% str, high eff, medium range & dur (or high dur low range, if Narrow Minded).
Out: Blade Storm. In: MfD (spam Seeking Shurikens, MfD, things asplode), Larva (ZOOP!, everyone dies), Savage Silence (Gotta pump up those numbers, those are rookie slash procs/finishers)
Build 2: max duration, eff, mobility mods.
Out: Blade Storm. In: Firewalker/Infested Mobility. This is the speedrunner build after all.
Build 3: medium range, high eff, for Blade Storm.
Out: Teleport. In: Savage Silence or Roar, depending on the tileset's room size.

Atlas - Don't use him, don't care.

Banshee - 
Build 1: high str, high eff, high range, Resonance.
Out: Sound Quake. In: Toxin Elemental Ward (Rolling Guard/Brief Respite build) or Defy (eHP tank build), potentially Ore Gaze (more support, ability modifiers already cater to this). 
Build 2: Med str, med range, med eff, med-high dur, Rolling Guard, Brief Respite, Augur mods, Primed Sure Footed. Shieldgate/active combat build.
Out: Sound Quake. In: Spellbind. Proc immunity? yesplz. Still get gibbed by toxin, but *shrug*.
Build 3: high str, low range, med eff, high dur. Melee Focus farm build.
Out: Sound Quake. In: Lull. Second chance to not-break stealth mult streak.

Baruuk - Don't play enough to have builds, but either Elude or Lull go, and either Larva or Infested Mobility in.

Chroma - Multiple values of str/range/dur, with or without PSF.
Out: Spectral Scream. In: Nourish if applicable, Empower, Larva or Spellbind (depending on range) otherwise.

Ember - Has very little use, currently. Fireball is awkward to spam, 2 has variable DR and is simpler to toggle on/off than mess with heat, 3 has detection issues but is a delightful armor strip when it works, 4 wants low dur and spamming (I've tried med str high range high dur build. It's awful), and I hate that.
Not going to use, so don't care.

Equinox - 
Build 1: negative str, max range, ~78% dur, 175% eff, Maim build.
Out: Pacify/Provoke. In: either Radiant Finish (CC, finishers - feed the Maim!) or Tesla Bank.
Build 2: high range, 200% str, high eff, Peaceful Provocation build.
Out: Toughie. Probably Rest/Rage. In: Nourish, Ore Gaze, Spellbind.
Alternatively, possibly Empower, if it's potent enough to free up some mods slots, gaining me build flexibility.
Build 3: max str, med range, Peaceful Provocation buff totem.
Out: Mend/Maim. In: Ore Gaze, Elemental Ward, (Disponsary if no Trin), Pillage. Might as well go all-out support.

Excalibur - Basically only has 1 build
Build 1: Umbrals, 175% eff, P continuity, Adaptation, flex.
Out: Radial Javelin. In: Empower (More Exalted Blade), Warcry (armor + melee speed), Defy (more armor).
Build 2 is a funsies Radial Jav aug melee build.
Out: Slash Dash. In: Defy. He needs more tanky.

Frost - 
Build 1: med+ str, 175% eff, med-low range, high armor - Globe build.
Out: Ice Wave. In: Nourish (+Freeze Force = innate Viral), Elemental Ward (tankiness), Firewalker/Infested Mobility
Build 2: 250% str, high range, med dur. Avalanche armor strip.
Out: Ice Wave. In: Smite. Armor strip + scaling HP damage. Energy econ's gonna suck.
Build 3: negative str, high range, high eff, med+ dur, Ice Wave Impedance. CC build.
Out: Snow Globe. In: probably either Larva or Spellbind.

Gara - Don't use enough to care.

Garuda - Don't use enough to care. Might change if an imbue actually gives her some tankiness.
So, tentatively, out: Blood Altar (I have Magus Elevate ty), in: Defy.

Gauss - Don't use enough to care.

Harrow - Don't use enough to care.

Hildryn - 
Build 1: High range, high str, med+ dur, Adaptation.
Out: Aegis Storm. In: Electric Elemental Ward (more shields (and retaliation)? yesplz).
Build 2: Max range, med- str, med dur, med eff, Blazing Pillage. CC build.
Out: Balefire. In: Not sure. Probably Resonator for some persistent non-PBAoE CC.

Hydroid - There's a short-dur Pilfering Swarm, a high-dur Pilfering Swarm, and a shieldgate/active combat build.
That said, I've put no thought into it. Probably Radial Blind (blind to root for tentacles), Ore Gaze (loot!) and Breach Surge (combat support), respectively.

Inaros - 
Build 1: Max eHP build for hijack/braindead. Neutral in all ability modifiers.
Out: Devour. In: Probably Spellbind (even less procs!) or Elemental Ward (heat/cold for more eHP, toxin for holster speed).
Build 2: neg str, max range, med eff, med dur. Whirlwind build.
Out: Devour. In: Probably doesn't really matter. Likely Firewalker or Reave for increased mobility.

Ivara - 
Build 1: neutral str, med+ range, 175% eff/channeling eff. Prowl build.
Out: Navigator. In: No idea.
Build 2: med+ str, high range, 175% eff/channeling eff, Concentrated Arrow.  
Out: Navigator. In: Probably Ensnare (for selfexplanatory reasons).
Build 3: High str, neutral range, 175% eff/channeling eff, Piercing Navigator. Joke/niche build.
Out: Quiver. In: Roar.

Khora - 3 builds: med+ str, med+ range, med+ eff, med+ dur. Accu. Whipclaw, Pilfering Strangledome, or both.
Out: Venari. In: probably Roar (just for lack of anything better to slot). Maybe Rage (of Rest/Rage) for speedva-lite, maybe Dispensary (for more sustain-in-dome).

Limbo - 
Build 1: neutral str, min range, max eff, max dur, Rolling Guard. MD build.
Out: Rift Surge. In: Savage Silence or bump to 144%+ str and Seeking Shurikens, both to better kill things with his limited range.
Build 2: Max range, max eff, Naltural Talent, mobility mods. Can-openner build.
Out: Rift Surge. In: Infested Mobility or Firewalker for less time between sets of cans.
Build 3: Med+ all, low dur, Brief Respite, Rolling Guard, Rift Torrent. Shieldgate/active combat Rift Surge build.
Out: Toughie. Not sure. In: probably MfD, maybe Firewalker for passive CC.

Loki - 
Build 1: negative str, high range, max dur, high eff, mobility.
Out: either Decoy or Switch Teleport. In: Infested Mobility. It's the invis/mobility build, and we don't want to alert enemies with Firewalker's damage.
Build 2: negative str, high range, med+ dur, high eff, Irradiating Disarm.
Out: either Decoy or Switch Teleport. In: Not sure. Probably Larva as it provides some utility while working with his ability modifiers.

Mag - Varying amounts of str/range/dur. Counter Pulse and  Fractuing Crush or Magnetized Discharge. Adaptation or active combat.
Out: Pull. In: Honestly don't know. At a glance: Empower, Elemental Ward, Radial Blind, Smite (can't wait to see how that performs in a mag bubble, but answer is probably 'not well without spamming' which idk if I can afford), Resonator.

Mesa - med+ str, med- range, max eff, med+ dur, Holster speed.
Out: Shooting Gallery. In: Seeking Shuriken for more-better killing of locational damage resist enemies/bosses/Sentients/etc.

Mirage - Don't use enough to care. Might change if an imbue actually gives her some tankiness.
So, tentatively, out: Sleight of Hand, in: Defy.
I assume that Explosive Legerdemain builds would remove Prism and add Roar or Empower.

Nekros - 
Build 1: Max range, max eff, adaptation. General Desecrate build.
Out: Soul Punch. In:
Build 2: High range, med+ str, med+range, med+ eff, Despoil.  
Out: Soul Punch. In: Probably Well of Life.
Build 3: 214% str, med+ all, Despoil, Equilibrium, Shield of Shadows.
Out: Soul Punch. In: Probably Well of Life and lower dur for more range.

Nezha - 
Build 1: negative str, max range, high eff, high dur. CC/Warding Halo Invuln build.
Out: Chakram. In: Don't know. Probably Larva.

Nidus - Don't use, don't care.
That said, he's a toughie - sign of a well-constructed skillset.
Build 1: med-high all, neg eff.
Build 2: Max range, med dur, Larva augment.

Nova - varying amounts of str, range.
Out: AMD. In: Not sure. Spellbind, Breach Burge, Radial Blind, Larva, Resonator, Seeking Shurikens. Will depend on specific build.

Nyx - 
Build 1: 144% str, med+ range, max eff, med dur, Rolling Guard, Assimilate.  
Out: Mind Control. In: Don't actually know. Probably Smite/Tesla Bank or Dispensary.
Build 2: negative str, max range, high eff, high dur, Chaos Sphere.  
Out: Psychic Bolts. In: Probably Pull.

Oberon - 
Out: Most likely Reckoning. In: Most likely Seeking Shurikens.

Octavia - Powerful, boring, timer-babysit-frame. Don't play, don't care.
That said, another toughie - all her abilities really are really powerful.

Protea - Only has 1 build: high dur, med+ str/range, neg eff.
Out: Temporal Anchor. Easy choice, it doesn't fit with her kit. In: Larva, for obvious, turret-related reasons.

Revenant - 
Build 1: Max str. Mesmer Skin weapon platform.
Out: Danse Macabre. In: Probably Roar, maybe Seeking Shouriken or Pillage.
Build 2: Enthrall -> Reave. High str (forget the threshold atm) neg eff, med+ range/dur.
Out: Danse Macabre. In: Probably Empower, if it lets me switch out Blind Rage, or add Overextended. The energy econ on this guy hurts.

Rhino - 
Build 1: med str, max range, med+ eff, med dur. CC build.  
Out: Rhino Charge. In: idk, probably Resonator as backup CC.
Build 2: high str, low range, med+ dur, low eff, Ironclad Charge & Iron Shrapnel.
Out: Stomp. In: Haven't considered yet.
Build 3: Roar buff totem.  
Out: Rhino Charge. In: Empower (more buff).

Saryn - med+ str, max range, high eff, med+ dur. Standard ESO fare.
Out: Molt. In: Probably Roar, for obvious reasons.

Titania - 
Build 1: 175% channeled eff, some str, Razorwing Blitz.
Out: Lantern. In: requires more consideration.
Build 2: All the mobility mods, because of her passive.
Out: Tribute. Too slow. In: Firewalker or Infested Mobility, obviously.
Build 3: high range, med str, eff, dur. Not-finalized CC build.
Out: Probably Razorwing. In: Build's not finalized, can't decide yet.

Trinity - 
Build 1: High str, high range, low eff, low dur, Energy Vampire.  
Out: Well of Life. In: Probably Larva. It fits her ability modifiers, is farm support, facilitates easier EV-ing.
Build 2: 150% str, med+ range, eff, dur. Blessing build.
Out: Well of Life. In: requires more consideration.
Build 3: 214% str, high range, low eff, med+ dur, Abating Link.
Out: Well of Life. In: Not sure. Maybe Breach Surge for the CC/damage boost.

Vauban - Max range. Negative str, max eff, med+ dur, Rolling Guard/Brief Respite Vortex/active combat.  
Out: Orbital Strike. In: Not sure. Maybe Larva for some ZOOP! to go with the shwoop.

Valkyr - Don't play (There are better melee platforms, and I don't need Hysteria).
That said:
Out: Ripline on any build.

Volt - Don't play.
Build 1: High str, high dur, low range, low eff. Speed build.
Out: Discharge. In: Probably Firewalker/Infested Mobility.
Build 2: med+ str, high range, med eff, med+ dur, Capacitance. Discharge build.
Out: Shock. In: Probably Roar or Empower.

Wisp - high str, dur Reservoir dispensary.
Out: Sol Gate. In: Maybe Dispensary, maybe Empower, maybe Roar.

Wukong - Don't play.
Out: Iron Staff.

Zephyr - Don't play.
Out: Air Burst.

 

So, in summary:

Are there certain popular options? Yes.

Are there overwhelming options? I don't think so.
What there are is a LOT of 'never-pick' bad options.

[Proscriptor]

i'm replacing inaros 1 with zephyr 2

[ttylerrocks4u]

2 hours ago, 1st-1 said:

its ppl like you that don't see the problem & let them do it like it was normal that make this game bad.

See just that warrants your whole argument poitless the vetroil of assuming and categorizing people like me. 

 

But im a understanding guy so ill humor your issues. Them being mr 8 is more detrimental to them then u with u having probably 10x more resources then a mr 8. So if a mr 8 wants to ruin there progression and get lost in a resource sink and lose interest in thatgame let them.

You talk so bad about noobs and how u feel they dont belong in the game but yet you yourself in fact all of us were back in time. 

Last thing. Would u prefer they change it now or after u invest and subsume the warframes. Im sure u be more pissed about the latter.

You are fine to criticize but put some oroginal thought into it and not copying almost per batem what 100s of other people have already said also criticism involves usually some positive aspect all i heard ablut your useless comment was me me me noobs suck me me i suck me me me.

[MasterBurik]

In Haiku form:

Quote

Roar is a good skill,

But multiple Roars don't stack.

I'll pick something else.

Although I don't necessarily need it, chances are that I'll end up getting the Roar buff from the Meta crowd anyway.

[Proscriptor]

i'm replacing loki 3 4 with limbo 1

[-Ironheade-]

4 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

What if I told you guys that you could still trivialize any content in the game right now, and you don't even need to put Roar on your Wisp?

Helminth is gonna be great for creative building and gameplay. If you're upset that it isn't gonna power creep as hard as you hoped, fear not, there will still be plenty of ways for you to enjoy "press any key to receive REWARD" style gameplay.

Nobody claimed that Helminth would be necessary to beat content right now, because as you said, it isn‘t. It looked like a fun system to min/max certain builds or just do goofy stuff. The thing is, if all the available abilities are a steaming pile of poo like Mind Control, it‘s not fun anymore.

[feralknights]

8 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

What if I told you guys that you could still trivialize any content in the game right now, and you don't even need to put Roar on your Wisp?

Helminth is gonna be great for creative building and gameplay. If you're upset that it isn't gonna power creep as hard as you hoped, fear not, there will still be plenty of ways for you to enjoy "press any key to receive REWARD" style gameplay.

this this this this this

[Diedact]

Was having an interesting conversation with a clannie. Realized very quickly that there should be a requirement to subsume a warframe, that being having the warframe mastered. Now I want to draw a very linear distinction between mastered and maxed. Mastered is if you've gotten any copy to lvl 30. Max is if that specific copy of the warframe is lvl 30 right now. I mean mastered and I mean it VERY specifically.

This is mostly for quest warframes, as while most people in this forum thread are having to refarm them from Simaris, you DE can prevent players in the future from making a costly mistake simply because they don't know that it will be lost. A simple warning text box before subsuming the warframe can serve a similar purpose. All I'm arguing for (in this comment at least) is a simple safeguard.

[(PSN)Rogue_Dea]

The issue that I have is that these abilities are nerfed as opposed to giving us viable alternatives or buffing those less desirable. I can only guess that it is due to time constraints. Balancing and/or buffing the remaining Warfare abilities would take longer. DE, stop putting yourself in this position. I am pretty sure most Tenno would prefer a well balanced system that may take longer to become available as opposed to rushed content that feels broken or unbalanced.

As far as the change in MR. I don't believe MR 8 is appropriate. MR 10 possibly? Not a lot of Tenno are going to have surplus resources at MR 8. Let alone have the desire to be overwhelmed by another in game system

[ttylerrocks4u]

20 minutes ago, LixSin said:

I'd feel better if they didn't do it at all, and instead finally fixed all those crappy abilities, which should've happened years ago.

True but hey if we look at the past they usually do things after the fact. So at least people didnt invest and subsume abilities just for them to get nerfed. Although that may still happen XD

[1st-1]

il y a 11 minutes, ttylerrocks4u a dit :

See just that warrants your whole argument poitless the vetroil of assuming and categorizing people like me. 

 

But im a understanding guy so ill humor your issues. Them being mr 8 is more detrimental to them then u with u having probably 10x more resources then a mr 8. So if a mr 8 wants to ruin there progression and get lost in a resource sink and lose interest in thatgame let them.

You talk so bad about noobs and how u feel they dont belong in the game but yet you yourself in fact all of us were back in time. 

Last thing. Would u prefer they change it now or after u invest and subsume the warframes. Im sure u be more pissed about the latter.

You are fine to criticize but put some oroginal thought into it and not copying almost per batem what 100s of other people have already said also criticism involves usually some positive aspect all i heard ablut your useless comment was me me me noobs suck me me i suck me me me.

Be original ? about what.. i just say what need to be said, what is that stupid argument ?... you want me to give you rework idea ? that DE won't even read or care about? you want me to do THEIR job ? uh?...

And it seems that you should use your eyes and your brain, i'm not talking bad about noobs/new players, but about DE, doing their best to ruin any "good" content to make it viable for Mastery 2, and by doing so, just make any content fastfood, but hey, lets wait 'til they nerf the incoming update few days after it come out just so that noobs & new players can do it easily.. just like any previous content..

And LAST THING, even tho' i've already answered that.. tss.. i would've prefer them to THINK and test before doing all that shiet and then nerfing the poor little good things we've.

Seems to hard for you to understand, strangely, you're on the minority side, but its probably because u right, uh? ...

[ZloGlaZ]

18 minutes ago, Ozzyman89 said:

Honestly i think this is genius. Rather than piss off vets and all of this crying, create a separate subsume ability for each frame. an ability that kind of encapsulates the warframe that was subsumed. 

But, but in this case they will have to work and be creative and it is contradicting the usual LAZY approach, like nerf everything. 

[Pshyis]

18 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

What if I told you guys that you could still trivialize any content in the game right now, and you don't even need to put Roar on your Wisp?

Helminth is gonna be great for creative building and gameplay. If you're upset that it isn't gonna power creep as hard as you hoped, fear not, there will still be plenty of ways for you to enjoy "press any key to receive REWARD" style gameplay.

What if I told you that no one was going to force you to use those abilities and that you could have been creative nerfs or not?

[thepug13]

what are you doing DE?! you nerf the good abilities because they are more appealing instead of buffing or making the crap abilities better. what is this cancel culture of warframe abilities now? also the mr 15 requirement for this was great. now this is a system that i dont even want to use because there is no longer any point. if your just gonna nerf every thing into the ground then there is no point in playing it becomes an issue of  "whats the point in having good things"

[(PSN)Glitschig]

So much for veteran content.  Pure money grab.  Let everyone have it the first two weeks they are here.

Wow.  They took the anticipated release in years and crapped the bed with it.  Just couldn't resist taking something fun and not turning it into an absolute snorefest grind.  

[Xylena_Lazarow]

6 minutes ago, Pshyis said:

What if I told you that no one was going to force you to use those abilities and that you could have been creative nerfs or not?

I was actually planning on using Roar and Larva. I may still use them if the nerfs aren't crippling. Even if they are completely ruined, I still love Helminth and will enjoy dozens of other abilities. I'm sorry that this has ruined the entire system for you, may you find peace in whatever degenerate strategies inevitably come.