Riven disposition for new Prime Weapons

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

I've been away from the game a few years. Came back a few weeks ago and checking what's new. Maybe I am missing something, but aren't the new prime weapons worse than the non-prime counterpart? 

For example, I checked Tenora Prime vs Tenora stats. Sure, Tenora Prime has slightly better stats. However, due to riven disposition differences the non-prime Tenora has better stats if you own even an average/mediocre riven - let alone a "top tier" one. 

Are the new prime weapons only for MR fodder? 

For sure not the hype I used to enjoy back in the days on a new weapon release ... 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Ignore rivens

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Ignore rivens

Why? 

As long as they are more powerful than the mod they replace, they fit in the build. Which is pretty much always the case on a good riven, regardless of disposition. 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

6 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Why? 

As long as they are more powerful than the mod they replace, they fit in the build. Which is pretty much always the case on a good riven, regardless of disposition. 

If you have a riven and can make tenora better than the prime then yeah use it but rivens are more bonus than anything. It's better to leave then out of "which version of the weapon is better".

They just changed dispo on new weapons cause people would cry about the giant amount of plat and effort people spent on them only for it to be reduced later, I don't think they'll ever change it again unless Rivens get changed completely

[vegetosayajin]

15 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Are the new prime weapons only for MR fodder? 

For sure not the hype I used to enjoy back in the days on a new weapon release ... 

In most cases, yes.
There are a few exceptions like the guandao prime that is far better then it's normal counterpart.
The new disposition changes were implemented to skew the "riven mafia" as I understood it, but I may be wrong.Someone correct me if that wasn't the official reason.
I just use rivens as a bonus to my favourite weapons, not to min-max to the end and waste months farming kuva for a few rolls.

 

 

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

If you have a riven and can make tenora better than the prime then yeah use it but rivens are more bonus than anything. It's better to leave then out of "which version of the weapon is better".

They just changed dispo on new weapons cause people would cry about the giant amount of plat and effort people spent on them only for it to be reduced later, I don't think they'll ever change it again unless Rivens get changed completely

Well, if you use that narrative, all mods are a bonus. If we leave rivens out, might as well leave primed mods and mods altogether out. If you only exclude rivens, that's a double-standard. If you mod the weapon "as best as possible" then a riven is on the weapon. 

Let me see if I got it right: Because of some people who spent platinum irresponsibly - fully knowing about riven disposition changes - they decided to make all new prime weapons MR fodders for anyone who owns a riven? 

It just seems an odd logic / chain of events. I mean, I will adapt to the situation. It's just seems ....wrong. That's the best they could come up with? 

 

[chaotea]

Basically, every new riven now starts at the lowest disposition, and then grows if nessisary. For the most part a prime weapons disposition will be slightly lower than a non prime due to the primes better stats.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Let me see if I got it right: Because of some people who spent platinum irresponsibly - fully knowing about riven disposition changes - they decided to make all new prime weapons MR fodders for anyone who owns a riven? 

It just seems an odd logic / chain of events. I mean, I will adapt to the situation. It's just seems ....wrong. That's the best they could come up with? 

 

That seems accurate and lines up with their approach to other things that they feel need to be nerfed but aren't the worth the hassle to do properly.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

1 minute ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Let me see if I got it right: Because of some people who spent platinum irresponsibly - fully knowing about riven disposition changes - they decided to make all new prime weapons MR fodders for anyone who owns a riven? 

It just seems an odd logic / chain of events. I mean, I will adapt to the situation. It's just seems ....wrong. That's the best they could come up with? 

Pretty much, every dispo change was people complaining about their rights and wasted money

5 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Well, if you use that narrative, all mods are a bonus. If we leave rivens out, might as well leave primed mods and mods altogether out. If you only exclude rivens, that's a double-standard. If you mod the weapon "as best as possible" then a riven is on the weapon. 

If you see it like that it's only going to get worse for you cause newer weapons are on par with primes and when they eventually get primed this issue will be more noticable

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

1 minute ago, chaotea said:

Basically, every new riven now starts at the lowest disposition, and then grows if nessisary. For the most part a prime weapons disposition will be slightly lower than a non prime due to the primes better stats.

But doesn't that  make power difference between prime and non-prime void since the riven disposition covers that gap? 

[vegetosayajin]

Just now, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

But doesn't that  make power difference between prime and non-prime void since the riven disposition covers that gap? 

Yes. I remember now the official reason was to give non-prime weapons a fighting chance or something.
I guess they succeeded in this. :D

[chaotea]

3 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

But doesn't that  make power difference between prime and non-prime void since the riven disposition covers that gap? 

Yes, if you have the riven. Generally it still comes out slightly better, but depends on the weapon. Also depends on the Riven.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

not everyone has a Riven for those weapons, or even wants one and for those people, the Prime will be better. Rivens just give you the option of making a Vanilla weapon powerful enough to substitute for a Prime weapon. that said, I can't say I totally agree with the way the Riven system works. 

[Voltage]

It's up to DE whether they care about player investment with Riven Mods and Disposition specifically. Given this comment is a year old and has been said many times by many people, it seems like DE doesn't.

"Endgame mods" that punish you for using higher end weapons.

[ThumpumGood]

6 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Up to DE whether they care about player investment. Given this comment is a year old and has been said many times by many people, it seems like DE doesn't.

Thank you for using "endgame mods" that punish you for using higher end weapons.

They took clan exclusivity away from Railjack and Ignis wriath and you still have the delusion that they care about the time, effort and money(or "investment" as you put it) we put into the game? LMAO.

But when it comes to rivens and seeing them go for 10k plat, you start to see the money behind the madness. Especially when you have people saying that you can farm items and trade for plat, completely missing the point that SOMEBODY had to buy the plat because it doesnt just appear in game. And that using the 1k plat for $50 model, a 10k riven is asking somebody to pay $500 for a riven. I MIGHT use 200plat, or $10 in real money terms,  to get a riven... IF it's got good rolls. But that's my limit. The riven market is the way it is because people throw money at them in order to pay to win and DE allows it because MONEY!. Not bashing it. Just stating the reality.

Now prime weapons being less than a non prime when you use the same riven on both, that's an illusion of balance to keep the status quo and the money flowing. Expect to see Prime rivens that only work on Primes to increase that revenue stream.  Again, not bashing it. Just looking at the reality of a "free" game and the way to keep it solvent.

[Voltage]

6 minutes ago, ThumpumGood said:

But when it comes to rivens and seeing them go for 10k plat, you start to see the money behind the madness. Especially when you have people saying that you can farm items and trade for plat, completely missing the point that SOMEBODY had to buy the plat because it doesnt just appear in game. And that using the 1k plat for $50 model, a 10k riven is asking somebody to pay $500 for a riven. I MIGHT use 200plat, or $10 in real money terms,  to get a riven... IF it's got good rolls. But that's my limit. The riven market is the way it is because people throw money at them in order to pay to win and DE allows it because MONEY!. Not bashing it. Just stating the reality.

Except when players trade for Rivens at high Platinum values, we aren't talking money. Platinum has no exchange back into real money, so players who have lots of Platinum naturally want to spend it on bettering themself and their account. It's not pay to win. They really don't make much of an impact anymore with how easy and watered down combat has become.

I'm a Riven collector. I like having a collection of high end Rivens, and it's honestly the only endgame this game really offers anymore. No enhancement is really that special besides a Riven, so naturally I want to have a nice collection of them to set my arsenal apart from everybody else. Rivens are just a time investment like anything else, and they used to be alright. However, DE has butchered them over time and actually killed a mod they described as "endgame" for new content on arrival. It's really sad and kills Prime Access for me. I really don't care about Tenora or Pandero Prime if I can just use their non-prime and get the same experience (unless there is a gimmick) with just a different skin. I can even give it the same name with open world weapon naming lol. You see people talk about Kronen Prime, Rubico Prime, Pyrana Prime, etc, but hardly the newer Primes. Zakti Prime? Even Guandao Prime is forgotten about because the base Guandao with a Riven or Orthos Prime have existed for years and perform pretty similarly.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

This is one of the main issues I think we all disagree with. 0.5 rivens just aren't worth it. The whole point of a riven is to get stats that are higher than regular mods. I don't even care about perfect rolls, but if I get a crit damage mod that's higher than or close to vital sense, and just has an added bonus of another stat like CC or Tox or whatever, then I already improved my weapon. 

But obviously DE was in a tough spot, so there was never gonna be a perfect solution. 

 

[ThumpumGood]

9 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Except when players trade for Rivens at high Platinum values, we aren't talking money.

Yes we are. SOMEBODY paid the money to get the plat that doesnt exist without paying REAL money to get it in the game. Trading to get that plat means nothing. Plat is REAL money. And it shortcuts the grind buy buying the items. Whether you buy a frame from DE directly or buy  it from another player using plat doesnt change the fact that it's real money. Your thinking is flawed. It's like saying a playstation card isnt real money. You are buying the card/plat to purchase items with that "gift card". Transfering that card/plat to some one else doesnt change that fact no matter how much the recipient hoards. The plat isnt being taken out of the game fast enough for people to realize that. Riven cost takes nothing out of the game. Slots, boosters, cosmetics and whatever else that you buy from the market does.

My idea for a resolution? put a plat tax on plat transfers between players. (excluding gifting from the store) to reduce the amount of plat in game. Maybe then the rest will work itself out.

[Voltage]

3 minutes ago, ThumpumGood said:

Yes we are. SOMEBODY paid the money to get the plat that doesnt exist without paying REAL money to get it in the game. Trading to get that plat means nothing. Plat is REAL money. And it shortcuts the grind buy buying the items. Whether you buy a frame from DE directly or buy  it from another player using plat doesnt change the fact that it's real money. Your thinking is flawed. It's like saying a playstation card isnt real money. You are buying the card/plat to purchase items with that "gift card". Transfering that card/plat to some one else doesnt change that fact no matter how much the recipient hoards. The plat isnt being taken out of the game fast enough for people to realize that. Riven cost takes nothing out of the game. Slots, boosters, cosmetics and whatever else that you buy from the market does.

I have lots of Platinum in Warframe. That Platinum is bound to my account and to the in-game economy. I cannot redeem that Platinum to go pay for Prime Access, groceries, gas in my car, or to go out to eat. With this in mind, sure, the Platinum had a real money value associated when it was bought originally, but that value is lowered once it is stuck as Platinum. Platinum has been deflating for years as the playerbase grows. Some players (we like to call them whales) have loads of Platinum and no where to really use it. I bought a few thousand Forma, Deluxe Skins, etc., but I still have lots left. With this, I invest in Riven Mods as they are the endgame of weapon builds. That is per DE. They do not treat them this way and actively punish players who want to enhance new content to the best of their ability.

I still think Rivens are a good system. They just need to be maintained better and should be maintained from the perspective of how it makes a player feel who invests in the system. DE seems to miss that last part with most content added to the game, and that is unfortunate.

[Berzerkules]

For me the .5 dispo on release pretty much killed any excitement for new weapons. 

Take melee weapons for example. I pretty much always want attack speed and/or range on a riven. With lower dispo (~1.0) weapons I want a +2/-1 riven with either attack speed or range and crit damage. At .5 dispo on a +2/-1 riven max rolls are 37.4 attack speed and 1.3 range. Neither of those stats are worth running since I can get higher rolls on regular mods. Because of that fact, pretty much any melee I already have a riven for will be just as good or better than any new melee that gets released. 

The riven is not needed, I could take whatever gets released into any content it be fine, but what's the point? What am I supposed to do with plat. DE doesn't release stuff fast enough to spend it. Might as well min/max the weapons I enjoy using with rivens even if it's not necessary. 

I want to get excited about new weapons but there is no point. If the weapon outperforms already existing weapons DE will nerf it into the dirt. If it preforms on par with already existing weapons, I'll have a higher dispo riven for the older weapons. 

We're going to be getting Corpus liches with a bunch of new weapons. No need to grind them out for MR fodder since I'm MR30, No need to farm them since the rivens will be trash. Unless they have an interesting mechanic that sets them apart it will be a pointless grind with no real reward. DE really backed themselves into a corner here. 

 

[ThumpumGood]

6 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I have lots of Platinum in Warframe. That Platinum is bound to my account and to the in-game economy. I cannot redeem that Platinum to go pay for Prime Access, groceries, gas in my car, or to go out to eat. With this in mind, sure, the Platinum had a real money value associated when it was bought originally, but that value is lowered once it is stuck as Platinum. Platinum has been deflating for years as the playerbase grows. Some players (we like to call them whales) have loads of Platinum and no where to really use it. I bought a few thousand Forma, Deluxe Skins, etc., but I still have lots left. With this, I invest in Riven Mods as they are the endgame of weapon builds. That is per DE. They do not treat them this way and actively punish players who want to enhance new content to the best of their ability.

I still think Rivens are a good system. They just need to be maintained better and should be maintained from the perspective of how it makes a player feel who invests in the system. DE seems to miss that last part with most content added to the game, and that is unfortunate.

It's not bound to your account. You can go to the market and buy upgrades, frames, weapons, slots, cosmetics and more. You can trade it to other players. You are spending real money via a gift card called plat that you got from either paying real money to get that gift card or that some one traded to you for items. It's still real money. If no real money had been spent, there would be no plat in the game. I am astounded that you've failed to realize this. Im astounded that anyone fails to realize this. If people stop buying plat, there will eventually be zero plat in game. It's not a gimme like credits. It's a premium item that REAL MONEY was spent on.

You trying to fake it that it's not real money has exceeded my limit for willful disassociation from reality.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Why? 

Because, very simply, if the Riven for the Tenora makes it more effective than the Tenora Prime, and usage shows that it's more popular, then two things will happen;

Either 1, the Tenora's Disposition will go down because more people are using it, or 2, (more likely) the Tenora Prime's Disposition will go up because not enough people are using it.

Why do I say that 2 is more likely? Because the base Tenora's Riven has held fairly steady, the theoretical 'balance' of popularity to power ratio has been reached, and people aren't screaming that the Tenora is such an over-powered beast with a Riven. Meanwhile if a new Prime is not popular three months after its release, increasing the Disposition is how DE handles that.

On average, 80% of the disposition changes to Rivens are buffs, so it's most likely that DE will buff the Tenora Prime's disposition by the next Prime Access after its release. You won't go long with a terrible Riven.

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Let me see if I got it right: Because of some people who spent platinum irresponsibly - fully knowing about riven disposition changes - they decided to make all new prime weapons MR fodders for anyone who owns a riven? 

It's not just Prime weapons. Any new weapon starts at the lowest possible disposition now so DE can measure how the weapon handles itself on its base stats accessible to everyone before they take Rivens into account. That way they get to buff the weapon if needed rather than nerf it due to overuse.

Rivens are supposed to be balancers as per DE's intent. Ergo, they favor weaker variants by giving them higher disposition. This can at times mean that a Riven would make a standard variant outperform a Prime/Prisma/Kuva/Wraith/Vandal/Syndicate variant.

[ReddyDisco]

its a better system, easier to start from bottom and work your way up.

not too fun the other way around 

[GEN-Son_17]

9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It's not just Prime weapons. Any new weapon starts at the lowest possible disposition now so DE can measure how the weapon handles itself on its base stats accessible to everyone before they take Rivens into account. That way they get to buff the weapon if needed rather than nerf it due to overuse.

This was my understanding as well. Also, wouldn't both versions of the weapon share the same riven, thus resulting in both weapons losing riven performance? Lastly, why should DE release a weapon assuming every player has a riven for it? It should be the opposite. Let's see how the weapon performs at release and go from there instead of speculating.