Assault rifles in this game.

[Kaggelos]

hmm, here's a fun idea, probably, in regards to punchthrough:

Every gun that hits an enemy who's health is at 50% or lower, will start getting punchthrough'ed! As in their armor/defenses are getting weaker or something. Just a thought, maybe you can come up with something better ^^

[Captain_Rocket505]

100% assault rifles need some sort of buff. Hell any "single target" weapon does. Let's be fair, most of the new weapons have some sort of AoE to them right now. Bubonico has it's own alt-fire AoE, and unlimited ammo so you can fire forever (still gotta wait for the ammo to recharge, but you get what I mean). Trumna and spelcrum both have decent AoE's. Why should I handicap myself using something such as the baza when I can use a mass nuke weapon such as the nukor or bramma or even a rifle with AoE? Shotguns aren't much better. Aside from the god-tier ones such as corinth and cedo, I can't think of any that are as powerful aside from getting up close. And if you are that close why not use melee? It's a million times more effective. Secondary's have the worst end of it however. Some are just single target and while they might have their own unique perks, they are useless compared to a good melee/AoE primary/nukor/warframe ability. The limitations put on melee or abilities are kinda messed up, for reasons others have stated in post's above. This is the point where I would add several points I think would help assault rifles, but frankly there are already some good ones here anyways.
 

21 minutes ago, Kaggelos said:

hmm, here's a fun idea, probably, in regards to punchthrough:

Every gun that hits an enemy who's health is at 50% or lower, will start getting punchthrough'ed! As in their armor/defenses are getting weaker or something. Just a thought, maybe you can come up with something better ^^

 

44 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I reckon they could scale better with stuff like this:

- a system where hitting multiple enemies within a short space of time buffs the damage of the rifle. it encourages aiming at groups and spray-and-pray tactics over trying to kill enemies one by one, which AR's aren't as good at compared to non-AoE Bows and Snipers. buff could also be applied to crit/status chance.

- damage multiplier that increases after each kill, making it easier to take on groups, and most Assault Rifles have a high enough capacity to make this work, it would be especially good on true LMGs like Soma Prime, Trumna and Quellor.

- innate punchthrough, and lots of it, perhaps with a combo multiplier for punchthrough hits/kills.

while you would never see a combo scaling system for ARs in other games, I don't see how AR's in warframe can be made viable without one of some kind.

 

16 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

I think gun mechanics might need a ground-up rework. For one: just get rid of ammo capacity and pickups. Everybody gets infinite ammo. You still have to reload, but you won't ever run out of reloads.

These here are some idea's I think are pretty good and SHOULD go into a potential assault rifle buff




I will add my own point here being a simple damage increase to "single target weapons" such as the baza/braton and the like could help a bit. Not saying it will fix the issue, but it will help a bit. How much is up for debate. Though the main issue is to balance everything effectively you have to rework the whole warframe arsenal. That is gonna cause a whole lot of changes, and frankly is very challenging. It has the potential to cause a whole lot of issues, especially considering DE's recent history with nerfs (Khora, Bramma, some primary kitguns, ect). I'm not saying it shouldn't be attempted, just that it has to be done carefully otherwise we risk making things such as melee near impossible to use. That's the thing we need to aim for: useable, but not stupid powerful. I get we need nuking stuff in the game, since gameplay tends to be hordes of enemies rushing you waiting to be killed. But having stuff that clearly makes the other weapon categories useless the way melee does isn't what we need. Just my thoughts

[OoKaioO]

I really wish de could see this(do they?). I have been playing this game since update 9 and I just enjoyed the gameplay mechanics of assualt rifles. Though when doing higher level missions(eg survival), they might work for the first 30 min or so then their usefulness just dipped hard which at the point the game becomes a hack and slash due the hordes of enemies swarming over you. There are really some good points above for buffs that will keep the basic properties of an assault rifle while increasing it's usability.

[Sovyul]

Speaking of punch through, how does a bullet dig a hole through an enemy and hit another enemy behind it, without penetrating its armor?

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

7 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

I remember making a similar thread some time ago and getting all the response that "this buff is not necessary" like this sh1t will make assault rifles OP or something. Some people argue some ammo efficiency bullcrap or try to tell me how they are useful against 500 lvl enemies. Foolish people. These don't mean a sh1t when DE showed the 2020 stats. The same people also turn a blind eye against actual OP stuff like Wukong and Kuva Nukor and they are too afraid to give ARs a bit of extra punchthrough which make them even dumber.

I will say it: bullet based weapons in this game are just useless, 99% of the time. Using one of them effectively cripples your efficiency. A little of innate punchthrough might help, but no amount of punchthrough will make them competitive against the actual good weapons. Honestly I can't imagine giving them punchthrough will harm the game in anyway more than the Catchmoon or Kuna Nukor or Bot Wukong ever did.

Innate-Punch-Through won't really do much at all I would think, AR's have very little single-shot damage as it is, and that gets reduced for each enemy or surface it punches through. You would be able to hit more people, sure, but the amount of bullets needed would still be the same, rendering the entire point somewhat useless. Folks here have suggested Primed Shred, and while the PT is cool it's mostly just good for the extra Fire Rate. I suppose I would just ask for enough PT to barely go through a single enemy, only because wasting bullets into a dead corpse is inevitable with most of the AR's. 

As for the OP, I still believe all Primaries and Secondaries should just receive the Sniper Combo Multiplier. Misses and hits scale with Multishot, so you can easily be punished for it with weapons like Shotguns. Headshots would count for double the hits, rewarding more accuracy-focused weapons while not crippling your other options. The multiplier wouldn't ever get that high, except for weapons that would need it (so AR's), as it functions similarly to the old Melee Combo Counter and takes far more hits to scale upwards. Primaries of course should still receive some better Primed Mod options, but this should make it so guns are more comparable to Melee without overshadowing the system.

[kgabor]

48 minutes ago, Sovyul said:

Speaking of punch through, how does a bullet dig a hole through an enemy and hit another enemy behind it, without penetrating its armor?

Good question.

And maybe also a clue as to how Puncture status could be remade into a viable status type; Both with a partially armor-ignoring mechanic and a way to get some innate punch-through without using up a mod slot.

Slash would still be better for single targets, but Puncture heavy weapons would have this niche against groups.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

1 hour ago, kgabor said:

Good question.

And maybe also a clue as to how Puncture status could be remade into a viable status type; Both with a partially armor-ignoring mechanic and a way to get some innate punch-through without using up a mod slot.

Slash would still be better for single targets, but Puncture heavy weapons would have this niche against groups.

The issue there is that Punch-Through can very easily screw with explosive weapons, so putting that inherently into the IPS system is bound to cause a ton of problems.

[Lost_Cartographer]

I'm not so sure assault rifles need a buff so much as we need more mod slots...  I mean... has anyone's builds REALLY changed much in the past few years?

Also, it's a shame something like the Braton Prime is kind of obsolete next to the newer assault rifles, which sport status AND crit.

[Yamazuki]

16 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Since I don't trust DE to nerf Kuva Nukor (nerfing the Kuva Bramma's damage was one thing, but they nerfed the damage AND made it nearly impossible to actually use) and don't expect them to nerf melee. So yes, assault rifles need a buff. They can barely handle sorties, they need to be dealing more damage

While Assault Rifles/high fire rate single target weapons are bad compared to either burst or aoe depending on content, if you aren't killing things in Sorties, that's due to your build or you're talking about specific weapons that intentionally have pretty much 0 stats and nothing will ever be done about that, or you are simply lying. I've used a few of them in SP, which requires noticeably more damage than simply Sorties.

The damage of these weapons will literally never be enough unless they're given enough damage to kill enemies within a couple shots. When enemies aren't lined up, they have to instantly kill enemies to compete with aoe guns, since well, aoe guns are killing multiple targets quicker than they can kill one. Even then, if their damage isn't increased enough, they still won't compete where single target is preferred.

There's also more to using weapons than just their damage. There are other stats like reload speed, ammo limits on some weapons, etc. This is why even though melee does a lot of damage, it's still not used by the majority. Having to run up to enemies, especially in more stationary missions, wouldn't be any different to using a gun that had to reload every single time it killed an enemy. Various stats aren't properly balanced between different types of guns. As long as any weapon spends too much time reloading, they won't see much use, not much different to how bows are largely ignored. Part of what made Bramma good to people isn't just the damage, or the aoe, but it has low charge time per shot. If it had a long charge time and a longer delay between arrows, the weapon would likely have never been popular to begin with, even if it had high damage unless used with specific Warframes. This is why sometimes when DE nerfs something popular, they don't just lower their damage, they make how they feel worse it use in other ways to convince people to just drop the weapon. Khora is another good recent example, they didn't even target her damage despite it being insanely high for the low cost, and how much utility she offers, instead they tried changing how she was used.

[TARINunit9]

19 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

While Assault Rifles/high fire rate single target weapons are bad compared to either burst or aoe depending on content, if you aren't killing things in Sorties, that's due to your build or you're talking about specific weapons that intentionally have pretty much 0 stats and nothing will ever be done about that, or you are simply lying. I've used a few of them in SP, which requires noticeably more damage than simply Sorties.

The damage of these weapons will literally never be enough unless they're given enough damage to kill enemies within a couple shots. When enemies aren't lined up, they have to instantly kill enemies to compete with aoe guns, since well, aoe guns are killing multiple targets quicker than they can kill one. Even then, if their damage isn't increased enough, they still won't compete where single target is preferred.

There's also more to using weapons than just their damage. There are other stats like reload speed, ammo limits on some weapons, etc. This is why even though melee does a lot of damage, it's still not used by the majority. Having to run up to enemies, especially in more stationary missions, wouldn't be any different to using a gun that had to reload every single time it killed an enemy. Various stats aren't properly balanced between different types of guns. As long as any weapon spends too much time reloading, they won't see much use, not much different to how bows are largely ignored. Part of what made Bramma good to people isn't just the damage, or the aoe, but it has low charge time per shot. If it had a long charge time and a longer delay between arrows, the weapon would likely have never been popular to begin with, even if it had high damage unless used with specific Warframes. This is why sometimes when DE nerfs something popular, they don't just lower their damage, they make how they feel worse it use in other ways to convince people to just drop the weapon. Khora is another good recent example, they didn't even target her damage despite it being insanely high for the low cost, and how much utility she offers, instead they tried changing how she was used.

Have you played this game in the last year?

"Melee is not used by the majority"? Melee is the ubiquitous choice for anyone not running Saryn or Mesa (and even then, most Saryns spam high-reach polearms anyway). "Assault rifles are viable for Steel Path"? Maybe for E Prime on Earth, but try and take that into Steel Path Ambulas, see if you get anywhere. Especially since you immediately afterward admit that no, they really can't compete with any other weapon class in the game (and also claim they could never get a buff that fixes the issues, which makes me wonder if you have tried beam weapons after their buff)

I flat out disagree with almost every individual statement in your post. Even the minor stuff about bows and charge time; the Daikyu takes about fifteen years to charge up its arrows, yet to this day I see people asking for Daikyu Prime every three months

[xcrimsonlegendx]

Pretty much anything that's not an AoE gun is going to suffer by comparison, I love the Hema and have modded and forma'd it to high heaven and have a decent riven but its still just a single target burst rifle weapon that just doesn't cut it.

[KittySkin]

If we are really speaking about fixing single target assault rifles (or secondaries that do the same, shotguns, etc, everything that DONT have AOE), first thing first, everything needs PT. Period. Shred its not good for the ROF alone, but for having both ROF and PT.

Modding for PT its expensive, because if you are not hitting at least 2 enemies, its a wasted slot, and thats where shred shines. Its never a wasted slot, and the primed version its almost a dedicated ROF mod with even more PT than a dedicated PT mod.

Second, most of this weapons needs faster reloads AND higher damage, or at least some sort of damage multiplier when hitting the same enemy more than once, so when AOE weapons are good for killing hordes, single target ones are good at dealing with those damn hard to kill heavy units.

That or heavy units need to have AOE/Warframe damage resistance, so in order to kill them you need to either be at melee range or use a single target focused weapon.

Its not about the weapons being bad as much as the game being TERRIBLE for them.

Euphona Prime its a great example. High damage, one shot almost everything, but with 5 bullets and a reload time longer than 0.25 seconds? Good luck trying to protect an excavator, a console or even keeping up with life support.

The only exception are sniper rifles because they have the combo counter that adds so much damage that even when they are trash to manage groups, the one hit ko they provide its enough to justify them on high level content.

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2021-02-18 at 6:08 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If you want to optimize them, use a frame that helps your guns. 

Harrow, Octavia, revenant with his new thrall augment that gives you like 500% damage, nezhas chakram, novas 4, things like shock trooper, frosts 1 augment etc. 

Especially with the 1 augments like embers 1 augment, you can skip a mod and put something else there because the added elemental damage adds to your weapon. So for example if you want viral, you use frosts 1 augment and only have to put toxin mods on your gun. 

 

All those things dont close the gap between assault rifles, and aoe weapons though. 

 

Any of those things would make aoe weapons even more powerful. 

[(XBOX)IIIIRED1IIII]

On 2021-02-18 at 3:13 PM, OoKaioO said:

Guys, I really feel like assault rifles in this game needs a buff. I really enjoy the kind of gunplay that assault rifles has to offer unlike nuking the whole map using an explosive bow. However, assault rifles in the current states just feel way too weak not in the case of a single target dmg but when dealing with groups. From my perspective giving all assualt rifles some innate punchthrough(don't even have to be walls, just body) would do it just fine. De please, what do you guys think?

I think that if you mod it right you can a least kill normal planet level enemies with assault rifles.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

All those things dont close the gap between assault rifles, and aoe weapons though. 

 

Any of those things would make aoe weapons even more powerful. 

Depends on the level, faction and modding. If you funnel enemies in a narrow corridor you can get pretty close.

[BethTheBean]

Spray and pray, lol.

[(PSN)KCGrimReaper15]

Here's an idea make Primed Shred an Exlius Mod so people can keep there builds..

But only on non aoe weapons can Prime Shred be an exlius slot mod 

Pistols also need a mod that has the stats of Primed Shred..

I would love to use this mod on my supra vandal but don't want to get rid of my 126% status chance...