Dev Workshop: Zephyr Revisit 2021 (Video Workshop)

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Ironically, still no answer to the question exists.  So....why are we quibbling over the definitions?  Are we losing the blow?  The current Tornados do have some area denial, but losing a function of a power needs to be noted...if only for posterity and so we understand the full impact. 

Actually I think that we're gaining a lot and losing nothing.

(Oh, and I always classed the ragdoll as the 'blow' because it's a directional ragdoll outwards from the centre.) And as far as we've heard it's staying, DE said this is a buff to the one side, meaning that there still will be the other.

But here's the fun; since we now have a directional, vortex form of succ on Air Burst, we can use it in a positive fashion to expand the reach of our Crowd Control. Picture a larger range build, and knowing DE it doesn't affect the range of Tornado's pick-up, we can actually target Air Burst into the edge of the funnel's radius. This sucks the enemies into the range, Tornado picks them up, we have the CC combo function to group enemies into an ability that not only spreads our damage, adding its own damage, but also multiplies our crit damage.

Area denial is not to be underestimated as a function, however in Warframe it serves quite a lot less of a purpose than area grouping. With the area denial we have on Zephyr... it's not so great, not compared to the functions we can get out of being able to group enemies into a single point.

[Leqesai]

From the video it doesnt really look like the pull radius is actually increased from what is on live. The tornadoes are larger but the pull radius certainly did not appear to be 3x the size like pablo said. In the video after he said that he was using a lancer as his example and the lancer didnt appear affected until like 5m away from the tornado.... am i missing something here?

 

[Kai_27-]

19 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

Wish granted!

 

No, this is still present.  Tapping Airburst will pull enemies together, while holding the key will blast them outward.

One other thing that would be great for tail wind would be for us to be able to conserve its momentum if we slide out of it - sort of like a slingshot... would be tonnes of fun! (useful too!)

[(PSN)Toolriz]

Really like rework however I was hoping for additional buff w scaling damage on tornadoes themselves. One thing I hated playing w zephyrs is floating enemies not dying. Sure u shoot them to add damage but I was hoping her to be useful on endurance runs as well.

[THeMooN85]

Nice changes... you know what could be even more fun? Scalable damage! Zephyr could actually use her skills to spread death!

Pablo!!! Ma man! Please take a look at Chroma, Hydroid, Nyx, Grendel, Valkyr, Frost, Inaros... those fellas really need your touch!

[--DSP--Jetstream]

Good changes, cant wait to try once it went live.

[master_of_destiny]

14 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Actually I think that we're gaining a lot and losing nothing.

(Oh, and I always classed the ragdoll as the 'blow' because it's a directional ragdoll outwards from the centre.) And as far as we've heard it's staying, DE said this is a buff to the one side, meaning that there still will be the other.

But here's the fun; since we now have a directional, vortex form of succ on Air Burst, we can use it in a positive fashion to expand the reach of our Crowd Control. Picture a larger range build, and knowing DE it doesn't affect the range of Tornado's pick-up, we can actually target Air Burst into the edge of the funnel's radius. This sucks the enemies into the range, Tornado picks them up, we have the CC combo function to group enemies into an ability that not only spreads our damage, adding its own damage, but also multiplies our crit damage.

Area denial is not to be underestimated as a function, however in Warframe it serves quite a lot less of a purpose than area grouping. With the area denial we have on Zephyr... it's not so great, not compared to the functions we can get out of being able to group enemies into a single point.

 

? 

 

Stop, breathe.  The question was whether we have one or not.  You've now expanded a simple question into what you want.  If you wanted to do that....then maybe look back at the genesis.

 

That said, someone else actually cited a DE response....so fine.  Question answered.  If you'd like to imagine things, please don't make it a response to a question, that has no answer to said question.

[yles9056]

Awesome changes!

But is it possible to make Dive Bomb triggers melee slam attack but with increased range and damage? That would be much more interesting than flat 4500 damage.

For example: If Zephyr equips Heat Sword, Dive Bomb would trigger slam attack of Heat Sword(radial heat damage) with increased range and damage.

Or: With Vitrica equipped, Zephyr will be able to shatter glassed enemies with Dive Bomb.

Just imagine all the possible combinations with every melee weapons!

[Xikto]

make it so stationary tornadoes don't spawn too close to each other which would basically nullify each other, the best way to do it is to give zephyrs stationary mode the same treatment as hydroids 4 in the hold mode.
 

how about adding a "toranodes follow you" mode in there? like they would always be in X radius around me and just roam around at that distance from me, this is mainly for missions that do not encourage staying in one placing and camping, without this addition her 4 will basically be only a stationary tool, since the roam mode is quire honestly not even worth being in the ability at all!

How about reworking her 1? like make her a movement tool similar to wukongs cloud walker or titania 4 movement!

have her 3 been changed so mitigates flamethrowers and glaives? how about non weapon lazers? cause those things will kill her instantly.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

Everything that was mentioned and shown off by Pablo recently sounds pretty darn good, no matter how you play Zephyr after this rework i can see you using at least 6 of the 7 things Zephyr can do (that 1 being the dash part of tail wind, it would be used but likely only in open worlds). Each of her abilities are really useful and pretty fun

However, I do have a problem, and that's with her 2 and her 4. They seem a bit redundant. Zephyrs 4th ability spawns 3 (Three!) tornados all in a single spot, and they all suck enemies up. So like, not only does her 2nd ability basically do the same thing, but her 4th ability spawns more tornados than necessary for 1 spot.

And if we are talking about variety, players already have access to grouping abilities through the Helmith system. 

For those reasons, I don't think her 2nd ability should be in her kit... Instead, I think you guys should make her 2 cast a single tornado (up to 3). Tap for a single roaming tornado, hold for a stationary one 

Her 4th would of course would need to be something else. I had an idea for her 4th a while ago that made Dive bomb her ult or 4th ability.

Dive Nuke

Spoiler

 

This ability effects enemies with 20m, knocking them down, and cause more effects, depending on the following

- Air Height: The higher you are the more damage you will deal

- A Tornado is within range of impact: Tornados will massively increase in size and deal massive amount of damage but will have their duration affected. Stationary tornados will have 5 seconds to deal damage, roaming tornados will have 20 seconds. Using this ability near the end of a tornados lifespan is best as it will set the duration to 5 or 20 seconds regardless of the duration left on the ability. Basically giving the ability a longer life span as opposed to a shorter one.

(I made stationary tornadoes live shortly to add more reason for players to want to use roaming ones)

So now, all the tornados act like shredders when you use her 4th ability. Enemies go in alive, come out in pieces. 

 

A change like this or any replacement for air burst would allow for a new ability to get in the game, while still making this rework's kit available through the use of abilities like Larva in the Helmith system.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

15 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

If we also had an area clear with blow it's entirely something more interesting

There are cases where you'd want blow over suck?

6 hours ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

Though I wish the 3 would be a little more reliable against bombards

I like to think of it as just another reason to play Zephyr in the air

6 hours ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

the two doesn't have enough to differentiate from Ensnare and Larva, which are available on Helminth (and better), might try to give it something that makes it stand out. 

 

4 hours ago, Simply_The_Cat said:

Make it spawn one and with maximum of 3 placed at the same time.

Yea this is what I was saying. I think her tornado's are a good enough grouping ability too since you can attack the tornado itself and damage all enemies caught in it. Simply allow her to place them 1 at a time and spin the enemies closer together (so that it is not quite a ball but close enough) and it's the perfect replacement for air burst suck, AND it functions differently from other grouping ability's

Hope they notice and address it a bit.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

If you'd like to imagine things, please don't make it a response to a question, that has no answer to said question.

Hi, I'm Birdframe_Prime, the most active Zephyr Rework Thread presence on these Forums since 2015. I literally make it my job to project, imagine and request things to do with Zephyr. I do apologise that you were caught in this conversation without realising that.

Nice to meet you ^^ [/s]

The answer to the question was: 

Spoiler

And as far as we've heard it's staying, DE said this is a buff to the one side, meaning that there still will be the other.

But the rest of my comment was a literal response to the rest of your comment.

For example, you went into why you consider the suck version existed before... when it was an outward ragdoll? I mean, you're the one trying to quibble over definitions. I just said that, in terms of Air Burst, it was always an outward blow instead of an inward suck, and the inward suck was the bit added the most recently. And you went onto a digression of how you don't count it as a 'suck' or a 'blow' because it was a ragdoll? I mean... that's just pure semantics. That's you actually quibbling.

Then you diverted even further into the mechanics of Tornado, in a conversation about Air Burst? Saying that you 'apparently had to outline it too', which is genuinely odd because it had no baring on the conversation. You tried to argue that the suck existed first because Tornado existed? Before Air Burst? The topic of the conversation being the order of suck vs blow on Airburst? Why then did you try to further your argument by including Tornado?

So I responded to the actual question by saying that in terms of the new additions, we're not losing the ragdoll area denial, we're gaining more control and can actually combo the functions. It's not imagination, this is a literal way to use one ability to help out another (not in a 'synergy' fashion, in just a basic complimentary fashion) that will exist in the update. I even commented on your point about 'area denial' to point out that the grouping function of these new updates is far better than basic area denial due to how Warframe enjoys a far smoother combat system on grouped enemies rather than on enemies pushed out of an area.

Honestly your response was riddled with condescension, tried to pull the 'I've played this frame a lot' card (which is why I felt it necessary to sarcastically introduce myself at the start of this comment), and this most recent response from you about me wanting to 'imagine things' just reeks of hypocrisy when you when off on tangents first.

I'm here for a good time because my favourite frame is getting buffed, so you can go boil your head if you're going to bring that kind of nonsense to the table.

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

Chance to dodge when in V-Tol mode, just like Hyldrin during her 4th

[ShadarVieth]

So, for hover if you'rei in a tile set that has low ceilings like the crashed corpus ship or an ice tunnel does that still count towards the divebomb or does she have to reach a certain height level to use it?

[TARINunit9]

On 2021-03-09 at 11:28 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Passive
Zephyr’s aerial mobility bonus stays the same, and now she will also have a bonus of 150% to her critical hit chance while airborne.

That... actually sounds pretty busted. I'm talking "Harrow needs three ability casts and has to aim for headshots, Zephyr just presses spacebar" kind of busted

[Leqesai]

5 hours ago, THeMooN85 said:

Nice changes... you know what could be even more fun? Scalable damage! Zephyr could actually use her skills to spread death!

Pablo!!! Ma man! Please take a look at Chroma, Hydroid, Nyx, Grendel, Valkyr, Frost, Inaros... those fellas really need your touch!

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Target_Fixation

Zephyr has technically had scaling damage for a long time.

Tornado is also capable of dealing scaling damage due to how it interacts with weapons/crits.

[Leqesai]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

That... actually sounds pretty busted. I'm talking "Harrow needs three ability casts and has to aim for headshots, Zephyr just presses spacebar" kind of busted

Harrow's crit chance bonus is a flat increase, the 150% from zephyr is not...

50% flat crit is far more useful than 150% crit for most weapons.

A weapon with 20% crit chance goes to 70% with Harrow and 50% with Zephyr.

A weapon with 40% crit chance goes to 90% with Harrow and 100% with Zephyr. So here you can see weapons above 40% crit chance are going to benefit from Zephyr more than the 50% example I am using

However, a weapon with 5% crit chance goes to 55% for Harrow but only 12.5% for Zephyr. Pretty significantly weighted in Harrow's favor here.

Also remember that Harrow's bonus is 200% flat crit on headshots. This is huge and far exceeds Zephyr's crit bonus capabilities. Harrow's bonus can also be applied to other players which is very useful. Zephyr's is only for Zephyr.

 

Zephy'rs bonus is definitely huge but I think you're being a little dramatic with how good it is comparing it to harrow.

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

Harrow's crit chance bonus is a flat increase, the 150% from zephyr is not...

I mean, you could easily be correct, but Reb's post was very ambiguous and I don't remember anything in Pablo's video clarifying it

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

I mean, you could easily be correct, but Reb's post was very ambiguous and I don't remember anything in Pablo's video clarifying it

the fact that the number is 150% on a warframe passive should be an indicator that this is not a flat bonus.

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

the fact that the number is 150% on a warframe passive should be an indicator that this is not a flat bonus.

Ash has a (functional) 234% bonus for his passive. One of Wukong's passive bonuses is 300% damage. Loki has a 1000% bonus for his passive

[Leqesai]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ash has a (functional) 234% bonus for his passive. One of Wukong's passive bonuses is 300% damage. Loki has a 1000% bonus for his passive

Right... Why are you comparing apples to oranges, exactly?

The discussion is about Zephy'rs crit chance and whether or not the CC is 150% of base or a flat 150% bonus... 

Wukong's 60s 3x elemental damage proc that occurs only when he goes down is not an appropriate baseline comparison...

Ash's passive extends the time of bleed procs which is its own thing and not applicable as a comparison either

And Loki... Why did you bring Loki into this exactly? Because you wanted to include 1000%? Wall latch duration is also -not an appropriate comparison-

 

I think you are focused too much on the way I structured my comment instead of the concept of 150% of base crit compared to 150% flat bonus. 150% flat bonus is way too good. There is a reason why flat crit bonuses are not common and when they do come up they are tied to special circumstances (IE Arcane Avenger). They removed flat crit bonus to maiming strike for a reason. Flat bonuses are very very powerful. 

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

Right... Why are you comparing apples to oranges, exactly?

"Why are you assuming X?"

Because they have given me precedent to assume X in the past.

Your logic about how DE balances their game works some of the time. Not all of the time. Vex Armor used to be a flat bonus. Bramma used to be far more powerful than they expected. War was once the strongest sword before it was completely power-creeped by Galatine Prime, which was in turn power-creeped by Gram Prime. DE has done all of these things in isolation, multiple times; I would not be surprised in the slightest if they did them all at once. And before you say "oh but they've also reversed some of them" that would actually COMPLETE the pattern, not go against it

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

"Why are you assuming X?"

Because they have given me precedent to assume X in the past.

Your logic about how DE balances their game works some of the time. Not all of the time. Vex Armor used to be a flat bonus. Bramma used to be far more powerful than they expected. War was once the strongest sword before it was completely power-creeped by Galatine Prime, which was in turn power-creeped by Gram Prime. DE has done all of these things in isolation, multiple times; I would not be surprised in the slightest if they did them all at once. And before you say "oh but they've also reversed some of them" that would actually COMPLETE the pattern, not go against it

[AdunSaveMe]

22 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

It's a toggle. Press and hold for a moment to turn on hovering mode. You can then release the key and you will stay hovering as long as you have energy. You can stop hovering by using Tailwind, using melee ground slam, or using Jump

Is there any reason this can't be a double tap instead? Is there any reason we can't have the option to make all held inputs and charges a double tap? Holding down keys for abilities in this game REALLY sucks. It's so awkward and sometimes outright painful. And those are abilities that you aren't trying to time an activation at the right height.

[Elric14]

I want her back now gonna farm it