NERF pain and suffering - why not BUFF for love and happiness?

[Bakaguya-sama]

2 hours ago, AshikagaWest said:

As you point out, there are many ways to be overpowered in Warframe.  Just nerfing a few really feels arbitrary and discouraging when they hit my favorite builds to use. 

That's the other important point. Like I said: "The extreme of extreme outliers".  DE hates nerfs as much as most of you do. They have shown a consistent pattern of generosity in increasing the player's power over the years. But even amongst the many ways players can trivialize the game, some things are just so ridiculously obscene that it screws up their vision for the game and utterly eclipse other choices (1 single weapon amongst hundreds hogging up >50% usage rate is a catastrophe) . And that's why they nerf them. And even then , they let most things stays OP for a long while before nerfing them.   

The fact that your favorite builds are getting hit is not some  arbitrary coincidence. It's because it's the favorite build of the majority of other Warframe players as well.  

You said they should have nerfed these outliers sooner, before players invest their resources into  them, and I 100% agree to that. That's what they are doing now. They are intentionally releasing new items weak and underpowered (Warframes, Prime Weapons, .5 Dispo Rivens etc.) so they no longer have to nerf anything. In a way, they are giving players what they want, no more nerfs, only buffs forever.  

[AshikagaWest]

3 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

1 single weapon amongst hundreds hogging up >50% usage rate is a catastrophe

Did you have a secondary weapon that you actually used before the Catchmoon?  I didn't - mostly.  I used the Viper Wraith to help with nullifier bubbles, but before the Catchmoon, all secondaries were just too weak.  So it doesn't surprise me that once the Catchmoon landed, so many people used it - rivens were easy to get (since the pool of kitguns was/is so small), it was powerful enough to compete with good primary weapons, and it outclassed all other secondaries... no-brainer.

I think that explains why it reached such insane level of usage.  Making other secondaries compelling seems like the fix there.  Of course, not releasing such an overpowered secondary would have been reasonable.... it's power should have been obvious from the base stats and plasmor-style punch-through alone.  I wish secondaries really weren't a thing overall - just let us take 2 primaries on a mission, and leave it at that ;-).  And, at the end of the day - if 50% of the players like something, that's not a bad thing.  I know it sucks to think all the time and effort to put the other secondaries in the game doesn't get rewarded, but nerfing the catchmoon didn't fix that problem.

Quote

In a way, they are giving players what they want, no more nerfs, only buffs forever.  

You know, I don't mean to say that no nerfing makes sense, but wow - the nerfing comes in really strong.  It really has been discouraging.

As for the continual power creep, I actually like the way the power creeps up over time because it makes it reasonable for newer players to catch up on content.  It would really suck to start Warframe today if it would take a brand new player 8 years to get to MR30.

[ZenHare]

The other big issue is how to do design content for people that have SP and CO mods and those that don't. The first group should be doing 8x to 10x more damage than the latter based on one mod with everything else being the same. DE really missed the chance with the last melee rework. They should have capped CO. Even at 3 or 4 statuses, it would have been 360% to 480% bonus to damage compared to PPP 165%.  

[Bakaguya-sama]

9 hours ago, AshikagaWest said:

Did you have a secondary weapon that you actually used before the Catchmoon? 

Staticor. Before it's "bug fix", it was magnificent. Every attack had big AoE explosion. Then DE "fixed" so that they only have the big explosion on charged attack ,as intended.  But even then, it was still a pretty good weapon. It was the equivalent 2ndary to the Ignis Wraith. Large AoE, reliable damage, but mediocre stats prevent it from being scaling up hard late game. Very popular back in its time.  But then the Catchmoon was released and it was a far better AoE 2ndary, with much better crit stats, so nobody used the Staticor anymore. 

There was also the Atomos, which I heard was pretty good but I never used it beyond getting mastery for it. The Catchmoon's fellow kitguns were also very good. The Tombfinger and Rattleguts remains some of the best single target damage dealer in the game. And they both had better scaling damage than the Catchmoon. If it wasn't for the Catchmoon, they would have easily been best-in-slot, better than almost every other guns available at the time. But unfortunately even they couldn't compete with the Catchmoon's AoE damage.  Even without the Catchmoon, there was plenty of good 2ndary options. Just that the Catchmoon was THAT much better.  

See a pattern? DE nerf something but immediately release something else that is better than even the pre-nerf old thing. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if some of the Granum weapon are even more OP than the pre nerf Kuva Nukor. Yes I agree it kinda suck to have to regrind for the next big thing (good news is rivens for new weapons starts at .5 so you dont really need to buy one anymore). It's rather obvious that they want us to keep grinding and spending more time playing the game (it's natural for game developers to do so). But overall the patterns hold: Warframe players will keep getting stronger and stronger.  

 

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, AshikagaWest said:

but before the Catchmoon, all secondaries were just too weak. 

That isnt even remotely true. Heck, even the basic Pyrana wrecked things as a single target weapon and the prime could actually wreck groups due to the prime mechanic. There were plenty of strong (in terms of ranged weapons) secondaries prior to Catchmoon. Catchmoon was just too good just as Kuva Nukor is currently too good compared to similar weapon types. A 9m, 4x target chain that starts at 75% of primary beam damage is insanely imbalanced within the category of chaining beam weapons. Not to mention the range of the main beam being 29m(!) long.

Compare that to all other beamers that chain. They arent even close.

[XaeVS]

Because of the Theory of Game Relativity.

 

All balance is relative, so a nerfing one thing is buffing everything else. Similarly buffing one thing is nerfing everything else.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

You're over exaggerating. You'll be fine.

[TeaHands]

On 2021-06-22 at 3:27 AM, DebrisFlow said:

Are you letting the "minor" nerf to nukor overshadow the massively overpowered buff it is going to receive through the new arcanes and mods?

SERIOUSLY! Nukor is losing two chains but will be able to amp up its damage to very high levels with the new mods and arcanes. Galvanized Shot alone ups damage and status with minimal effort. Also now you will be able to make its already long ass beam even longer without sacrificing a critical mod spot by adding it to exilus. Its buffs heavily outnumber its nerfs by a longshot.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

SERIOUSLY! Nukor is losing two chains but will be able to amp up its damage to very high levels with the new mods and arcanes. Galvanized Shot alone ups damage and status with minimal effort. Also now you will be able to make its already long ass beam even longer without sacrificing a critical mod spot by adding it to exilus. Its buffs heavily outnumber its nerfs by a longshot.

Misinformation and lack of understanding are rife on these forums.

These forums must be for new players, because many act like they're brand new by how little they know about the game.

[Bakaguya-sama]

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not to mention the range of the main beam being 29m(!) long.

Also you can get Beam range extending mods on Exilus next patch.  Plus all the new 2ndary mods and arcanes.  

Here's a hot take: Kuva Nukor will be better than the current version, even with chained targets reduced from 4 to 2 (if you use it as a killing weapon as opposed to only using it to prime CO). If I want a strong gun to snowball off the on-kill bonus, the Kuva Nukor will be it. It will still be the best-in-slot 2ndary, unless one of the new Granum 2ndary is even better... somehow.  

[Azamagon]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt even remotely true. Heck, even the basic Pyrana wrecked things as a single target weapon and the prime could actually wreck groups due to the prime mechanic. There were plenty of strong (in terms of ranged weapons) secondaries prior to Catchmoon. Catchmoon was just too good just as Kuva Nukor is currently too good compared to similar weapon types. A 9m, 4x target chain that starts at 75% of primary beam damage is insanely imbalanced within the category of chaining beam weapons. Not to mention the range of the main beam being 29m(!) long.

Compare that to all other beamers that chain. They arent even close.

And the funny thing is; Catchmoon is still really strong...

[Almagnus1]

The pattern I see with nerfs is that DE will nerf something to get people to use the new shiny... and the historical pattern shows this - especially when things get nerfed because they are "OP" and then we see in your face power creep like the galvanized mods which basically demonstrate that this supposed OP thing really wasn't.

IMO DE should completely punt all of the melee nerfs for 2-3 months and see if the new mods they are adding into Steel Path are actually going to do anything... and then revisit melee after the galvanized mods have been active for like a month or two.  As it stands right now, all DE is doing is exchanging one dominant group for another which only flips the problem on it's head and doesn't resolve it.  If data is showing that the melee weapons are still dominant AFTER the galvanized mods are live.  The data may very well show that melee is fine as is and doesn't need the nerf.

[MistressMoonpaw]

On 2021-06-22 at 2:08 AM, AshikagaWest said:

For me, first it was the Catchmoon.

Nerfed into the ground.  I spent 6 months getting it tuned into my build, riven and all.   Then, "whack".  Time + kuva + forma (fortunately, no plat on this one).  The addition of the exilus slot let me bring it back to viability thanks to the projectile speed increase helping with the reduced range.  Still not back to where it was, but back to usable.

Now, all of the primary Melee mods used for high-end content are getting significant nerfs.  You can say the berserker change is minor, but it's not.  Changing the trigger condition from crit hit to kill is massive - by the time it kicks in, I will have given up on the weapon because it's just way too slow.  Unless enemies are low enough that they just fall over - in which case, it does not matter.  More investment, including paying for a Riven getting whacked.

Did anybody ever say, "I don't enjoy playing the Melee meta, please nerf it?"  If so, please direct them to their nearest counciling center and recommend they try challenging themselves with intentionally weaker builds.

Instead of nerfing what's working and enjoyable, how about focusing instead on what is working well, and players enjoy.  We enjoy killing the 100+ enemiers per second (ok, not quite, but sometimes feels like it).  And we enjoy weapons that can do the job.

Now, to be clear - tuning weapons to the game is important.  But PLEASE do that before launching the weapon, OR AT LEAST limit it to a small number of weeks after launch.

Also, wording your message doesn't help matters.  "We are making a ***minor*** change to the Kuva Nukor" - um, dropping its effectiveness by 40% is not minor.  YUP, *another* riven that I bought and use a good amount.

IF you really want to balance the game and damage, then give us players better insight.  For example, I have NO IDEA how other players kill Sortie Lephantis in seconds.  I've tried a LOT of configurations with no success.

Also, more complexity != more fun.  I would honestly prefer a much simpler system overall.  And I can only imagine the number of bugs related to all this complexity.  I can't count the number of times I've thought, "is my damage output bugged?  feels REALLY low right now."  If there needs to be a way to go above-and-beyond for higher level players (I welcome this idea), then perhaps add ways for us to get mods that are Primed+, Primed++, Primed+++, or a system to slowly increase the individual stats of a weapon.  Then, we could have fewer "variations-on-a-theme" mods.  BTW, does anyone at DE know how ALL the mods work?  After playing so long, there are still many with mechanics that I don't understand, and I would be honestly shocked if there is 1 person on the planet that understands all of them.

Anyway, I'm sure my tone here is negative, as I'm not loving the repeated "you're enjoying this too much - WHACK".  So I hope that DE can see this and take it in a constructive manner.

PLEASE buff more, nerf less.  Simple.  Also, less complexity and more back-to-basics would be most welcome.

...

P.S. yeah, I personally rely heavily on melee for high-end content, but actually far less than you seem to think.  Ever since the last Blood Rush nerf-into-the-ground.

My sweet summer child. Youre forgetting, or maybe you werent aware of, DE's number 1 golden rule: "No fun allowed".

If a weapon is too much fun because its strong: BAM! Nerf.

If a mission mode makes the grind a tiny bit more bareable? BAM! Nerf. Draco anyone? Remember that? Remember steel essence farm? Also nerfed

If anything is too much fun or makes warframe life a little bit too easy, its nerfed to S#&$. The kuva Nukor for instance was already nerfed before. Now its nerfed again. Next theyre gonna make it so the K Nukor chains to yourself as well and when you reload it it just explodes in your hand

[Krankbert]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb MistressMoonpaw:

My sweet summer child. Youre forgetting, or maybe you werent aware of, DE's number 1 golden rule: "No fun allowed".

No challenge, no decisions, no thought - just one obvious pick with which to steamroll the game. Such fun.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

30 minutes ago, MistressMoonpaw said:

My sweet summer child. Youre forgetting, or maybe you werent aware of, DE's number 1 golden rule: "No fun allowed".

If a weapon is too much fun because its strong: BAM! Nerf.

If a mission mode makes the grind a tiny bit more bareable? BAM! Nerf. Draco anyone? Remember that? Remember steel essence farm? Also nerfed

If anything is too much fun or makes warframe life a little bit too easy, its nerfed to S#&$. The kuva Nukor for instance was already nerfed before. Now its nerfed again. Next theyre gonna make it so the K Nukor chains to yourself as well and when you reload it it just explodes in your hand

Sweet hyperbole bro! 10/10. 

People are calling this game power creep central yet some people act like minor adjustments actually make a difference against some level 200 corrupted. Who's exaggerating?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2021-06-21 at 5:08 PM, AshikagaWest said:

For me, first it was the Catchmoon.

Nerfed into the ground.  I spent 6 months getting it tuned into my build, riven and all.   Then, "whack".  Time + kuva + forma (fortunately, no plat on this one).  The addition of the exilus slot let me bring it back to viability thanks to the projectile speed increase helping with the reduced range.  Still not back to where it was, but back to usable.

Now, all of the primary Melee mods used for high-end content are getting significant nerfs.  You can say the berserker change is minor, but it's not.  Changing the trigger condition from crit hit to kill is massive - by the time it kicks in, I will have given up on the weapon because it's just way too slow.  Unless enemies are low enough that they just fall over - in which case, it does not matter.  More investment, including paying for a Riven getting whacked.

Did anybody ever say, "I don't enjoy playing the Melee meta, please nerf it?"  If so, please direct them to their nearest counciling center and recommend they try challenging themselves with intentionally weaker builds.

Instead of nerfing what's working and enjoyable, how about focusing instead on what is working well, and players enjoy.  We enjoy killing the 100+ enemiers per second (ok, not quite, but sometimes feels like it).  And we enjoy weapons that can do the job.

Now, to be clear - tuning weapons to the game is important.  But PLEASE do that before launching the weapon, OR AT LEAST limit it to a small number of weeks after launch.

Also, wording your message doesn't help matters.  "We are making a ***minor*** change to the Kuva Nukor" - um, dropping its effectiveness by 40% is not minor.  YUP, *another* riven that I bought and use a good amount.

IF you really want to balance the game and damage, then give us players better insight.  For example, I have NO IDEA how other players kill Sortie Lephantis in seconds.  I've tried a LOT of configurations with no success.

Also, more complexity != more fun.  I would honestly prefer a much simpler system overall.  And I can only imagine the number of bugs related to all this complexity.  I can't count the number of times I've thought, "is my damage output bugged?  feels REALLY low right now."  If there needs to be a way to go above-and-beyond for higher level players (I welcome this idea), then perhaps add ways for us to get mods that are Primed+, Primed++, Primed+++, or a system to slowly increase the individual stats of a weapon.  Then, we could have fewer "variations-on-a-theme" mods.  BTW, does anyone at DE know how ALL the mods work?  After playing so long, there are still many with mechanics that I don't understand, and I would be honestly shocked if there is 1 person on the planet that understands all of them.

Anyway, I'm sure my tone here is negative, as I'm not loving the repeated "you're enjoying this too much - WHACK".  So I hope that DE can see this and take it in a constructive manner.

PLEASE buff more, nerf less.  Simple.  Also, less complexity and more back-to-basics would be most welcome.

...

P.S. yeah, I personally rely heavily on melee for high-end content, but actually far less than you seem to think.  Ever since the last Blood Rush nerf-into-the-ground.

Holy crap dude....YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED WITH THE CHANGES YET! Stop whining. 

[Almagnus1]

22 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Sweet hyperbole bro! 10/10. 

People are calling this game power creep central yet some people act like minor adjustments actually make a difference against some level 200 corrupted. Who's exaggerating?

You would be correct.... if all the update did was add in galvanized mods and called it a day.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

11 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

You would be correct.... if all the update did was add in galvanized mods and called it a day.

You would be correct if after the update, nothing of reasonable level was able to be overkilled.

Do you think this will happen? Yes or no?

[bad4youLT]

I'm not huge fan of nerfs but think this way , if DE buffs guns it will be melee rework for early game all over again but for guns .

What do I mean by that ? Well melee is powerful from early all the way to mid game , requires basically no modding what so ever and and doesn't encourage to learn anything about modding .

Now imagine we do the same for guns and what we are left is scenario were people breeze through the early and mid game with no problem until they hit a hard wall and end up getting stuck .

This is already a problem with the second dream quest then player get to meet sentients for the first time and their damage resistance gimmick , I seen plenty low rank players even up to mr6 struggle with them especially in the sacrifice quest were they are forced to kill sentients rather then avoiding most like in second dream .

Nerfs can be good for the game if they are not over the board .

[Almagnus1]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You would be correct if after the update, nothing of reasonable level was able to be overkilled.

Do you think this will happen? Yes or no?

Define "reasonable level"

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

Define "reasonable level"

Hmmmmm, how about under 500.

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Hmmmmm, how about under 500.

That seems arbitrary, why is under 500 considered reasonable?  Why not claim anything under level 100 is reasonable and we shouldn't be evaporating stuff under level 100?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

That seems arbitrary, why is under 500 considered reasonable?  Why not claim anything under level 100 is reasonable and we shouldn't be evaporating stuff under level 100?

Just being liberal, seeing as literally no one considers the levels where a nukor is needed to be the average playable levels. 

Do you think the nukor will have any trouble killing enemies after the update? Yes or no?

[AshikagaWest]

4 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

Staticor. Before it's "bug fix", it was magnificent. Every attack had big AoE explosion. Then DE "fixed" so that they only have the big explosion on charged attack ,as intended.  But even then, it was still a pretty good weapon. It was the equivalent 2ndary to the Ignis Wraith. Large AoE, reliable damage, but mediocre stats prevent it from being scaling up hard late game. Very popular back in its time.  But then the Catchmoon was released and it was a far better AoE 2ndary, with much better crit stats, so nobody used the Staticor anymore. 

There was also the Atomos, which I heard was pretty good but I never used it beyond getting mastery for it. The Catchmoon's fellow kitguns were also very good. The Tombfinger and Rattleguts remains some of the best single target damage dealer in the game. And they both had better scaling damage than the Catchmoon. If it wasn't for the Catchmoon, they would have easily been best-in-slot, better than almost every other guns available at the time. But unfortunately even they couldn't compete with the Catchmoon's AoE damage.  Even without the Catchmoon, there was plenty of good 2ndary options. Just that the Catchmoon was THAT much better.  

See a pattern? DE nerf something but immediately release something else that is better than even the pre-nerf old thing. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if some of the Granum weapon are even more OP than the pre nerf Kuva Nukor. Yes I agree it kinda suck to have to regrind for the next big thing (good news is rivens for new weapons starts at .5 so you dont really need to buy one anymore). It's rather obvious that they want us to keep grinding and spending more time playing the game (it's natural for game developers to do so). But overall the patterns hold: Warframe players will keep getting stronger and stronger.  

 

Yeah, I never got into the Staticor, but I remember seeing it get heavy use.  I think the particle-effect overload made it a no-go for my tastes.  That's a good observation.  It's like there's a love/hate relationship inside DE between developers of new weapons and ... those looking back 6 months later.  It's probably more as you state - adding new content to re-engage players, then nerfing it to make it less compelling so players now have a need to work again.

While that may sound like a plan to make the content draw players in longer, it's also discouraging.  This is not the only time I've had this feeling with the game, so it's "ringing true".  Need to decide whether I just accept it or leave it.

The grind for newer content is ok.  But rivens with all their RNG.  Doing it a few times was ok, but beyond that - I'll pass.

[SenorClipClop]

On 2021-06-22 at 8:08 AM, AshikagaWest said:

NERF pain and suffering - why not BUFF

Short answer: consider how easy the game is made by playing to the current meta. If dev response to the current meta is to buff weaker stuff to its level, all that's really saying is that you want the complete ease at which the meta mashes the game to be the game's baseline. I'm fine with Warframe being relatively easy as far as games go, but the last thing I want is for this action game to turn into an idle game. I'm not expecting Dark Souls or Tekken, but I want this game to engage me just a little more than "aim in the vague direction of enemies and click a few times, here's your medal".