Numerous Melee Weapon Classes Recieved Undocumented Follow Through Nerfs

[Melanholic7]

This feels kinda weird, you know, you are building armory with hundred of weapons, mod them, test them, farm them, even farm rivens for then and then suddenly everything is nerfed. So....what the point of game? Collecting something cool to see how later it will be nerfed? Not really motivating. At least for me.. This just feels like my efforts were dumpstered. 

[Surbusken]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Try modding your Orvius for Reduced Damage, but faster Heavy Windup Speed and larger AoE

that should increase the kill rate.

You can reduce the "fail window" slightly, not that it changes anything, but I am saying there shouldn't be a fail window at all - there wasn't one before. The whole point of the rework was improving the feeling of the gameplay mechanically.

 

Would you like to have to hold alt fire down on a gun, for minimum 2 seconds or the shot flops?

It's a wonderwful feeling pressing a botton that doesn't respond and plays the wrong animation, quality gameplay and fun had by all.

... which was done in the name of "damage balance", which didn't happen anyway.

 

I am a total noob professionally speaking and in terms of damage calculations, which is why I feel secure in saying I shouldn't walk away with 70-80% of the damage, just because I was using a glaive.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

33 minutes ago, Melanholic7 said:

This feels kinda weird, you know, you are building armory with hundred of weapons, mod them, test them, farm them, even farm rivens for then and then suddenly everything is nerfed. So....what the point of game? Collecting something cool to see how later it will be nerfed? Not really motivating. At least for me.. This just feels like my efforts were dumpstered. 

And every new enemy that drops something new and shiny all have scaling Damage Reduction. 

Last update, we build up Necramechs because the game wouldn't let us use our Warframes.

This update, they let us bring Necramechs to the Corpus Lich fight, but it's Exalted Cannons hit as hard as an MK-1 Braton.

Our stats don't mean anything except for fodder that the game was shipped with.

DE knows the game needs a stat squish.

DE put too many damage multipliers in the game and they think they can balance it by throwing in layers of damage dividers on enemies.

[[DE]Saske]

Hi Tenno! This was an experimental change we tried out in development, but it should have been reverted before release.

Expect a reversal for these follow-through changes in the next Hotfix.

[LillyRaccune]

59 minutes ago, [DE]Saske said:

Hi Tenno! This was an experimental change we tried out in development, but it should have been reverted before release.

Expect a reversal for these follow-through changes in the next Hotfix.

Thank you? For an "experiment" you must have something you were trying to discover/achive. Did you find what you were looking for? It seems just a little suspicious...

[Krankbert]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb LillyRaccune:

Thank you? For an "experiment" you must have something you were trying to discover/achive. Did you find what you were looking for? It seems just a little suspicious...

It could have something to do with the melee nerf they were working on while they tried out this experimental stat reductions to melee weapons, but maybe that's just a coincidence.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

On 2021-07-12 at 3:40 PM, [DE]Saske said:

Hi Tenno! This was an experimental change we tried out in development, but it should have been reverted before release.

Expect a reversal for these follow-through changes in the next Hotfix.

Hey Saske why do the devs nerf everything in a PVE horde game?

If they want to nerf something, maybe inform the team that Sister damage reduction is 99%, yet the most recent update nerfed player damage reduction capping it to only 70%. Not fair or balanced, and feels horrible

Can we get a reversal on all player nerfs, and realize basic game design 101 is building new content that challenges players without the need to nerf existing setups and disrespect player investments? (and isnt just poorly made 99% damage reduction bullet sponge enemies with invulnerability phases!)

If the team is unsure of what these concepts mean, Id be happy to apply to work for them. Id even do it for free!

[Jarriaga]

On 2021-07-12 at 5:16 PM, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Hey Saske why do the devs nerf everything in a PVE horde game?

Reb and Pablo answered that in separate interviews. In context, Reb said their stats show players get bored and leave when they are too strong because the game is no longer engaging. Pablo said that buffing everything to the level of outliers instead of nerfing the outliers leads to the situation Reb was describing.

Reb's interview.

Pablo's interview.

Also, games like Dark Souls, Ni-Oh and Sekiro are power fantasies. "Power fantasy" doesn't exclusively mean "curb-stomping ants with molten aluminum" levels of one-sided enemy helplessness. 

[Aldain]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

Reb and Pablo answered that in separate interviews. In context, Reb said their stats show players get bored and leave when they are too strong because the game is no longer engaging. Pablo said that buffing everything to the level of outliers instead of nerfing the outliers leads to the situation Reb was describing.

Both of them are 100% correct too.

But sadly the "Why nerf a PVE game?" mentality goes far beyond just Warframe.

[Kaotyke]

9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Reb and Pablo answered that in separate interviews. In context, Reb said their stats show players get bored and leave when they are too strong because the game is no longer engaging. Pablo said that buffing everything to the level of outliers instead of nerfing the outliers leads to the situation Reb was describing.

Reb's interview.

Pablo's interview.

Dark Souls, Ni-Oh and Sekiro are power fantasies. "Power fantasy" doesn't exclusively mean "curb-stomping ants with molten aluminum" levels of one-sided enemy helplessness. 

I will grab those and put them in my Profile so I can copy-paste this every time someone asks... again.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I will grab those and put them in my Profile so I can copy-paste this every time someone asks... again.

Doesn't matter how many times you post it, getting through to people on that subject is like trying to cut a diamond with a stick.

[Kaotyke]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Doesn't matter how many times you post it, getting through to people on that subject is like trying to cut a diamond with a stick.

At least I would save time by posting those instead of trying to rationalized with the other person. I would just "Those are the Devs responses. Take it or leave it."

[Aldain]

13 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

At least I would save time by posting those instead of trying to rationalized with the other person. I would just "Those are the Devs responses. Take it or leave it."

Fair enough.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Surbusken said:

I am firstly talking about the supposed "balance" everyone keeps talking about, that the nerfs were allegedly for.

Now obviously, some weapons are better, some builds are better sure.

Ideally the factors should be as a close as possible - the relationship betwee kill and damage:

That isnt an issue with the weapons, that is an issue with the actual end of mission screen. Whatever thing has the highest overkill potential will rake up the most damage.

Lets say you have two weapons with the same dps. Weapon A hits twice per second for 50 damage, weapon B hits once per second for 100 damage. They both kill 50 enemies each that have exactly 50 eHP. At the end of mission screen it will look like weapon B has dealt 2x the damage of weapon A since each kill from weapon B will result in 50 overkill damage aswell.

[Surbusken]

21 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt an issue with the weapons, that is an issue with the actual end of mission screen. Whatever thing has the highest overkill potential will rake up the most damage.

Lets say you have two weapons with the same dps. Weapon A hits twice per second for 50 damage, weapon B hits once per second for 100 damage. They both kill 50 enemies each that have exactly 50 eHP. At the end of mission screen it will look like weapon B has dealt 2x the damage of weapon A since each kill from weapon B will result in 50 overkill damage aswell.

It was weird they decided to cut the glaives damage in half and nerf the animation, if there was "no problem with the weapon", according to your story.

[Tesseract7777]

1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

At least I would save time by posting those instead of trying to rationalized with the other person. I would just "Those are the Devs responses. Take it or leave it."

Like in this thread, where Saske leaves his response on the issue. 

And people immediately start questioning whether DE is lying/trying to stealth nerf/backpedaling etc. etc. etc. 

His response was pretty straightforward to me. They were testing it as part of melee nerfs, the reason it wasn't documented was because it wasn't supposed to be part of the final melee nerfs. And now it is going to be reverted.

Straight to the point. But people have to make conspiracy theories about it. 

And if I'm not making sense, my point is, some people just need to be told that a lot "this is the devs response take it or leave it" and simply cannot be reasoned with. 

[Aldain]

8 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

But people have to make conspiracy theories about it. 

People lost their minds thinking they put a cap on Condition Overload in the workshop despite there being literally ZERO proof that they did.

I even quoted and linked the exact text and images in a panic thread from the Workshop showing that every mod had the exact same description as the (at the time) live version with only the numbers changed and people STILL thought there was a cap until the patch dropped despite the description having no mention of a cap on either version.

But did anyone apologize for calling me an idiot in that thread?

Three guesses, and the first two don't count.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Surbusken said:

It was weird they decided to cut the glaives damage in half and nerf the animation, if there was "no problem with the weapon", according to your story.

I'm simply pointing out that the end of mission chart will never be an indication of how strong or weak things are. It is no indication on if the nerf was worth it or not. I didnt even touch the nerf subject of the glaives, I just explained the extreme flaws of the chart and why it is 100% unreliable. 

Or did you think the "That isnt an issue with the weapons" refered to the glaives or eh? No that refered to weapons in general, since there is no indication even regarding what weapons are involved. The high kill fellow could either be killing with a frame or weapons and melee easily results in overkill numbers.

There was obviously a problem with glaives, the nerf was needed since they were simply way too powerful, and they still are. I am even agreeing with your opinion regarding the new charge time, though I havent ran into a fail with it (multiplayer related maybe since I play solo?). They do however feel sluggish with the new delay, even with maximized "speed" mods to support the throw.

[Tesseract7777]

10 minutes ago, Aldain said:

People lost their minds thinking they put a cap on Condition Overload in the workshop despite there being literally ZERO proof that they did.

I even quoted and linked the exact text and images in a panic thread from the Workshop showing that every mod had the exact same description as the (at the time) live version with only the numbers changed and people STILL thought there was a cap until the patch dropped despite the description having no mention of a cap on either version.

But did anyone apologize for calling me an idiot in that thread?

Three guesses, and the first two don't count.

Oh I remember that thread, I was bored at the hotel and tried to convince some people myself. 

I got flamed a lot for it. I don't think I convinced a single person. If I hadn't been basically being paid to fail to convince people, I would have called it a waste of time. 

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I got flamed a lot for it. I don't think I convinced a single person. If I hadn't been basically being paid to fail to convince people, I would have called it a waste of time. 

There were only 2 reasons I did that whole evidence dump in the latter part of the thread.

One was I had finally had enough of people failing 3rd grade reading comprehension, and two a Cornered theme from one of the Phoenix Wright games came up on my background music playlist and I got carried away by it.

[Surbusken]

14 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Like in this thread, where Saske leaves his response on the issue. 

And people immediately start questioning whether DE is lying/trying to stealth nerf/backpedaling etc. etc. etc. 

His response was pretty straightforward to me. They were testing it as part of melee nerfs, the reason it wasn't documented was because it wasn't supposed to be part of the final melee nerfs. And now it is going to be reverted.

Straight to the point. But people have to make conspiracy theories about it. 

And if I'm not making sense, my point is, some people just need to be told that a lot "this is the devs response take it or leave it" and simply cannot be reasoned with. 

lol.

Straightforward? Maybe mentioning even at all, even superficially within something like the last 3 months, of the possibility of it, would have been.

"We are looking into these 3 categories, combo, attack speed and punchthrough". We don't know exactly what it is going to look like, and we are going to continue to regulate, test and observe moving forward".

You could just have said "we don't know what stats we are editing in notepad yet", could be anything, could be everything.

 

But then when it isn't mentioned, and players have to force a reply, then yes that looks really bad. Maybe they just hadn't noticed? Would that be better.

You go to all that trouble to post feedback threads and plan out the narrative but then giant nerfs just flies under the radar?

 

The thing is, everyone knows the history of video games and corporations, so there isn't any benefit of the doubt or trust. And why should there be, we aren't friends.

Where putting yourself in their shoes you'd obviously want to be 300% careful handling your customer and put yourself above any doubt, why put yourself in those situations to begin with.

Trust isn't given away it's earned by what you show on the field - with it being far in the negative because of the industry standard, knowing that you act accordingly.

It's entirely on the seller to convince the buyer, it's not the buyer's job to be kind and understanding, it's a product, it's not a relationship.

 

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think you completely failed to see the point I was making. Because it has zero to do with what you answered here.

I'm simply pointing out that the end of mission chart will never be an indication of how strong or weak things are. It is no indication on if the nerf was worth it or not. I didnt even touch the nerf subject of the glaives, I just explained the extreme flaws of the chart and why it is 100% unreliable. 

Or did you think the "That isnt an issue with the weapons" refered to the glaives or eh? No that refered to weapons in general, since there is no indication even regarding what weapons are involved. The high kill fellow could either be killing with a frame or weapons and melee easily results in overkill numbers.

There was obviously a problem with glaives, the nerf was needed since they were simply way too powerful, and they still are. I am even agreeing with your opinion regarding the new charge time, though I havent ran into a fail with it (multiplayer related maybe since I play solo?). They do however feel sluggish with the new delay, even with maximized "speed" mods to support the throw.

Okay, so the developers messed up the scoreboards and they are pointless, fake stats?

Well then they can fix the scoreboard malfunctions you mention, after they fix the glaives animation(s), I guess, add it to the list.

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

-snip-

I'm not saying I am okay with the lack of transparency leading up to this situation. 

I don't want to get that confused. It was a pretty big mistake, and that should be addressed further. 

But I'm just saying, I thought the post itself was pretty straightforward in its message. 

I don't believe in blindly trusting anyone, especially considering invigorations, but I don't want to jump to malicious intent either in a situation where I don't have evidence. 

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Surbusken said:

Okay, so the developers messed up the scoreboards and they are pointless, fake stats?

Well then they can fix the scoreboard malfunctions you mention, after they fix the glaives animation(s), I guess, add it to the list.

Yeah, exactly. Though I doubt they'll ever fix the scoreboard since it has been like that forever. Or well, they need to fix overkilling.

And yeah glaive animations/charge up needs to go back to what it was. I really wonder who accidentally ever really threw their glaive, or who intentionally ever used their glaive for normal swinging in the first place. I dont buy DE's reasoning regarding the charge up changes, not one bit. I think it is a smoke reason to hide an actual intended bigger damage nerf. Increased charge up lets them reduce the actual damage stats less, which makes the nerf look smaller as opposed to a straight up bigger stat nerf.

Accidental throw... pfft...

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I really wonder who accidentally ever really threw their glaive, or who intentionally ever used their glaive for normal swinging in the first place.

I don't agree with how dramatically they changed it but embarrassingly...I am one of those who would accidentally throw my glaive, more times than I'd like to mention.

It's kind of like how hold-to-heavy was, in laggy situations it would interpret two quick button presses as one long one and fire it off.

Though that might be more a reason to get rid of input buffering than anything else.

[Surbusken]

20 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm not saying I am okay with the lack of transparency leading up to this situation. 

I don't want to get that confused. It was a pretty big mistake, and that should be addressed further. 

But I'm just saying, I thought the post itself was pretty straightforward in its message. 

I don't believe in blindly trusting anyone, especially considering invigorations, but I don't want to jump to malicious intent either in a situation where I don't have evidence. 

Which is a great attitude and the way it ought to be, you get the benfit of the doubt.

Where I am saying not in the gaming industry you don't (which they know).

And that's actually one of my major problems with nerfing items people became attached to, worked for, paid for. Those situations just create ill will, moving forward in the game and even for future games and for the industry as a whole.

On one hand you want people to care, grind and spend money, on the other hand go around town casually wrecking things if you feel like it.

That's the disrespectul standard that then sets the tone.