Numerous Melee Weapon Classes Recieved Undocumented Follow Through Nerfs

[LillyRaccune]

58 minutes ago, Aldain said:

People lost their minds thinking they put a cap on Condition Overload in the workshop despite there being literally ZERO proof that they did.

I even quoted and linked the exact text and images in a panic thread from the Workshop showing that every mod had the exact same description as the (at the time) live version with only the numbers changed and people STILL thought there was a cap until the patch dropped despite the description having no mention of a cap on either version.

But did anyone apologize for calling me an idiot in that thread?

Three guesses, and the first two don't count.

I was part of that thread (or one of the panic threads). Sorry for giving you such a hard time.

[Aldain]

18 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

I was part of that thread (or one of the panic threads). Sorry for giving you such a hard time.

You weren't calling me an idiot at least so no harm done, however there were a few that weren't just disagreeing with me at the time but were so vitriolic that a mod came and cleaned the thread.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said:

I was part of that thread (or one of the panic threads). Sorry for giving you such a hard time.

 

50 minutes ago, Aldain said:

You weren't calling me an idiot at least so no harm done, however there were a few that weren't just disagreeing with me at the time but were so vitriolic that a mod came and cleaned the thread.

That was a heated thread but if I remember most of the confusion was because of how the OP was worded. These most recent updates have included a bunch of secret changes. It shows that folks in development are waking up to what has been allowed to go on so long.  However, as things are structured I don't see how they can reasonably fix it. 

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb (XBOX)Big Roy 324:

 

That was a heated thread but if I remember most of the confusion was because of how the OP was worded. 

Most of the confusion was from people insisting that a three status limit was a thing that had existed and that we could therefore "go back to" as DE wrote. There would have been much less confusion if those people had accepted that this limit had never existed and that DE therefore couldn't possibly be refering to that limit as what we would "go back to".

Yes, the post was worded badly. That particular misinterpretation was still rooted in a deliberate misreading and misinformation that would have been cleared up on page one of that thread if all the whiners and fearmongerers weren't so damn happy that they had something to scream about.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

11 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Reb and Pablo answered that in separate interviews. In context, Reb said their stats show players get bored and leave when they are too strong because the game is no longer engaging. Pablo said that buffing everything to the level of outliers instead of nerfing the outliers leads to the situation Reb was describing.

Reb's interview.

Pablo's interview.

Dark Souls, Ni-Oh and Sekiro are power fantasies. "Power fantasy" doesn't exclusively mean "curb-stomping ants with molten aluminum" levels of one-sided enemy helplessness. 

So where are the buffs to enemy AI instead of just making the ants more spongey?

Where are raids?

Where is PVPVE content?
 

Im aware of the lip service, but the actions are missing what the words convey

At the end of the day, Dark Souls is challenging because the AI and bosses are intelligently designed. They dont simply rush forward as canon fodder, nor are they bullet sponges

Also Dark Souls has PVP, invasions, and PVEPVP. Im glad you mentioned it. Maybe if Pablo (who has nothing to do with AI or game mode design) and Reb (who isnt even a dev lmao) were to play Dark Souls, they can pass along the notes to the team that thinks dumb enemies and nerfs are fun - the ones that actually make the core game

THAT is why people are quitting. Curbstomping ants gets old. But having your leg broken then trying to stomp them is even more painful

 

Edit - Just wanted to add I platinumed every Souls and Bloodborne, and Fromsoft rarely ever nerfs weapons unless there are game breaking exploits or duplications. They mainly just buff the underpowered weapons and spells. You would know if you played one sometime, instead of working unpaid DE damage control here 🤣

[kebra]

My "mains" are Valkyr and Excalibur, so I'll keep my mouth shut because I don't want to be banned...

[kyori]

What? Dark Souls?

Bring back stamina first, then talk Dark Souls.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, kyori said:

What? Dark Souls?

Bring back stamina first, then talk Dark Souls.

Most people don't have any concept of "hard" other than Dark Souls these days.

_{When in reality Dark Souls' difficulty only really stems from things like falling into bottomless pits over thin walkways, cheap shots like enemies behind corners and wonky hitboxes most of the time.}

[Jarriaga]

7 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

So where are the buffs to enemy AI instead of just making the ants more spongey?

Honest question:

What can better AI do against Limbo Stasis, or wide-area nukes that go through walls like Maim and Saryn's spores? It doesn't matter how good the AI is if they can't live for more than 2 seconds. Making them sponges at least results in them living longer and thus retaliate. That's something Pablo explicitly mentions in the interview. Did you skip it?

7 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Where are raids?

Where is PVPVE content?

Those are not the answer alone. And still they do not mitigate the need for nerfs.

7 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Im aware of the lip service, but the actions are missing what the words convey

If you think it's lip service then why are you asking for an answer if you're not going to believe it because it doesn't satisfy you? DE has made the game harder, Reb said in that interview that they wanted to make the game harder. That doesn't look like lip service to me considering they added TSP after the interview and are lowering our damage ceiling, further increasing difficulty.

7 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

At the end of the day, Dark Souls is challenging because the AI and bosses are intelligently designed. They dont simply rush forward as canon fodder, nor are they bullet sponges

DS is focused combat while WF is horde combat. The AI and bosses get to shine because there's no such thing as 20 enemies on screen and combat is focused around countering and dodging rather than shooting. Enemies are not bullet sponges because they (Enemies) have a defined level at which they (FromSoft) expect you to fight them, which funnily enough is the case for WF as well considering the devs don't even test the game past a certain level.

7 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Also Dark Souls has PVP, invasions, and PVEPVP.  Im glad you mentioned it. Maybe if Pablo (who has nothing to do with AI or game mode design) and Reb (who isnt even a dev lmao) were to play Dark Souls, they can pass along the notes to the team that thinks dumb enemies and nerfs are fun - the ones that actually make the core game

THAT is why people are quitting. Curbstomping ants gets old. But having your leg broken then trying to stomp them is even more painful

This goes back to my initial inquiry about Limbo. I see many people saying better AI will "fix" WF and remove the need for nerfs while being oblivious to the fact that the AI can be shut down with a single button. How can better AI escape Larva or Ensnare? How can they avoid being infected by Saryn's spores at max range? How do they survive a 10 million Maim nuke at max range? How are they going to avoid receiving true damage while affected by Radial Blind? How do they not die when shot by Mirage? The expectation of "better AI" without honestly answering how the better AI would interact with WF abilities is just cognitive dissonance in order to avoid recognizing that better AI would require further nerfs to work. That's the greatest irony here. 

And if you won't be satisfied with an answer about why they do things unless said answer comes from someone specific at DE since Reb and Pablo don't count (Because apparently and according to you they somehow don't know the design goals of the team as a whole despite their involvement) then might as well say that you don't care about what is being said, but rather who is saying it. That means no explanation or answer will result in you accepting or making peace with nerfs.

7 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Edit - Just wanted to add I platinumed every Souls and Bloodborne, and Fromsoft rarely ever nerfs weapons unless there are game breaking exploits or duplications. They mainly just buff the underpowered weapons and spells. You would know if you played one sometime, instead of working unpaid DE damage control here 🤣

Not an applicable comparison. In SoulsBorne games, your character scales your weapon, with each stat benefiting a specific weapon class while being useless for other weapon classes. Thus, there is rarely a need to buff anything as long as you are building the correct stats for the weapon class you like. The Souls games are designed so you can beat them with your initial weapon. WF on the other hand is more like Final Fantasy in which weapon tiers exist and early game weapons are meant to be replaced with late game weapons in addition to weapons not being affected by character attributes in general, so they all are at max stats. That's something you would know if you were honestly comparing Souls to WF without ignoring some inconvenient facts about how weapon scaling works in each game. I prefer Ni-Oh with mixed Odachi/Dual Sword Tengen Kujaku builds.

[Loza03]

5 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

So where are the buffs to enemy AI instead of just making the ants more spongey?

At 40:05-ish of that Pablo Interview, this is addressed. Simply put - we're way too OP. What's the point of smart enemies that can be CC'd instantly, or nuked instantly at ranges of what, 20, 30, 50 metres? Radially? Limbo's max range is 60 metres, and short of nullifiers or immunity, it's literally a football pitch length across in perfect CC.

5 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Where are raids?

How are you supposed to make a raid for a combat-focused game when combat is completely irrelevant and 'solved'. It's the above problem all over again. Go look at any of Destiny's raids and see that they are puzzles which the community has railed against already, platforming which is completely bypassable in WF, and combat which brings us back around to the above.

6 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Where is PVPVE content?

How. PvE is already busted, so competing with another group for best PvE performance would just exacerbate the issue where people don't like nerfs, because now its affecting their performance relative to something that matters. PvP is dead in the water, whether any of us like it or not. If you have an idea, then say it, but PvPvE isn't a cure-all.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Compared to other games, Warframe AI isn't stupid. The issue is that a lot of enemies were designed for a Warframe that no longer exists which is a problem that extends to the older Warframe's themselves.

The Butcher is the biggest victim in all of this.

Stamina used to be limited, running out of stamina while out in the open got you killed. So players had to take cover to recover and Butchers existed to put pressure on you during that time. Melee was once a clunky weak weapon of last resort before the new animations, Blood Rush and Combo Duration. 

Butchers have been reduced to buff fodder.

Stealth finishers used to be a risk reward type of deal because weak melee made closing distance risky. Now, stealth finishers are slower than just mashing E.

Warframe AI isn't the problem, it's outdated enemy design compared to how players have changed. Older enemies need a revamp.

Butchers for modern Warframe should be tankier than Heavy Gunners so they can tank melee hits like they did in the past. They should have parry moves that punish players for mindlessly mashing E. Their melee hits should stun players to make melee range riskier. Their parry move could be interrupted by Impact pricing guns, giving impact some legit utility.

Some players suggest flanking moves, but flanking doesn't work against an enemy more mobile than you.

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

7 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Honest question:

What can better AI do against Limbo Stasis, or wide-area nukes that go through walls like Maim and Saryn's spores? It doesn't matter how good the AI is if they can't live for more than 2 seconds. Making them sponges at least results in them living longer and thus retaliate. That's something Pablo explicitly mentions in the interview. Did you skip it?

Those are not the answer alone. And still they do not mitigate the need for nerfs.

If you think it's lip service then why are you asking for an answer if you're not going to believe it because it doesn't satisfy you? DE has made the game harder, Reb said in that interview that they wanted to make the game harder. That doesn't look like lip service to me considering they added TSP after the interview and are lowering our damage ceiling, further increasing difficulty.

DS is focused combat while WF is horde combat. The AI and bosses get to shine because there's no such thing as 20 enemies on screen and combat is focused around countering and dodging rather than shooting. Enemies are not bullet sponges because they (Enemies) have a defined level at which they (FromSoft) expect you to fight them, which funnily enough is the case for WF as well considering the devs don't even test the game past a certain level.

This goes back to my initial inquiry about Limbo. I see many people saying better AI will "fix" WF and remove the need for nerfs while being oblivious to the fact that the AI can be shut down with a single button. How can better AI escape Larva or Ensnare? How can they avoid being infected by Saryn's spores at max range? How do they survive a 10 million Maim nuke at max range? How are they going to avoid receiving true damage while affected by Radial Blind? How do they not die when shot by Mirage? The expectation of "better AI" without honestly answering how the better AI would interact with WF abilities is just cognitive dissonance in order to avoid recognizing that better AI would require further nerfs to work. That's the greatest irony here. 

And if you won't be satisfied with an answer about why they do things unless said answer comes from someone specific at DE since Reb and Pablo don't count (Because apparently and according to you they somehow don't know the design goals of the team as a whole despite their involvement) then might as well say that you don't care about what is being said, but rather who is saying it. That means no explanation or answer will result in you accepting or making peace with nerfs.

Not an applicable comparison. In SoulsBorne games, your character scales your weapon, with each stat benefiting a specific weapon class while being useless for other weapon classes. Thus, there is rarely a need to buff anything as long as you are building the correct stats for the weapon class you like. The Souls games are designed so you can beat them with your initial weapon. WF on the other hand is more like Final Fantasy in which weapon tiers exist and early game weapons are meant to be replaced with late game weapons in addition to weapons not being affected by character attributes in general, so they all are at max stats. That's something you would know if you were honestly comparing Souls to WF without ignoring some inconvenient facts about how weapon scaling works in each game. I prefer Ni-Oh with mixed Odachi/Dual Sword Tengen Kujaku builds.

Abilities should not be nerfed, they simply need to remake the core systems. Destiny puts abilities on a cooldown, with supers on excessively long ones. It also has stasis, pvp, pvevp, and crossplay. Its really not that hard to copy. Lavos proves cooldown abilities work, even if not being able to spam 1 button is considered a nerf, it doesnt actually nerf the abilities themselves. EZ fix!

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

At 40:05-ish of that Pablo Interview, this is addressed. Simply put - we're way too OP. What's the point of smart enemies that can be CC'd instantly, or nuked instantly at ranges of what, 20, 30, 50 metres? Radially? Limbo's max range is 60 metres, and short of nullifiers or immunity, it's literally a football pitch length across in perfect CC.

How are you supposed to make a raid for a combat-focused game when combat is completely irrelevant and 'solved'. It's the above problem all over again. Go look at any of Destiny's raids and see that they are puzzles which the community has railed against already, platforming which is completely bypassable in WF, and combat which brings us back around to the above.

How. PvE is already busted, so competing with another group for best PvE performance would just exacerbate the issue where people don't like nerfs, because now its affecting their performance relative to something that matters. PvP is dead in the water, whether any of us like it or not. If you have an idea, then say it, but PvPvE isn't a cure-all.

Warframe had two 8 player raids and PVEPVP content in the form of Solar Rail Wars. I see way too many new players say its impossible to put in game simply because theyre ignorant to the fact it ALREADY WAS IN GAME, theyre just too new to know and too lazy to research. Raids required skill and coordination beyond spamming abilities. Rail wars severely limited ability usage and had everyone start with no mods equipped on weapons and frames to make it balanced. It was better than Conclave

The problem isnt just the devs are stuck between brainless single button spam nukes and making challenging content, but that the newer players and casuals are almost forcing their hands into nerfs simply because they lack skill and want instant gratification

Imagine if instead of nerfing out raids and solar rail wars, DE spent the time they WASTED making skateboards, fishing, mining, and space taxis and put the actual WAR into Warframe. But no were left with a huge mess of abandoned content islands, weak storyline, and no real endgame

For a game that claims to be about "ninjas"... enemies and players cannot even counter parry/riposte like Dark Souls or Nioh, yet we can play a guitar and collect stuffed animals?? WOW great DEsign 🤯

[Jarriaga]

55 minutes ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Abilities should not be nerfed, they simply need to remake the core systems. Destiny puts abilities on a cooldown, with supers on excessively long ones.

You are not thinking this through or are somehow under the delusion that cooldowns work for all frames because Lavos exists, or you're being willingly disingenuous by pretending abilities can be reworked into cooldowns without massive system-wide nerfs.

Just look at Mesa: She's built around quick bursts of Peacemaker. Adding a cooldown means a nerf because you can't trigger Peacemaker on the spot to clear a room in 2 seconds, disable it, and move on to the next room to trigger it again.  Either the cooldown has to be generous-enough as to still allow you to do fast, quick on/off bursts of damage every 2 seconds, or it's so restrictive that Mesa's core design loop is invalidated. In addition, if the cooldown is generous-enough as to not be a nerf, then what has changed? Mesa is still killing enemies in 2 seconds and thus they can't retaliate or do anything to her, so what does a cooldown do here exactly?

There's also Gauss with his battery mechanic, in which it increases and decreases based on how frequently you cast his abilities and which abilities on top of his defensive ability only triggering 100% protection when a different ability is used at the same time.

There's also abilities and augments that are designed to be sustained via constant actions or specific actions, such as Ember's abilities scaling with her 2 as her heat level grows, but needing to decrease it by venting to sustain it so it doesn't get fully turned off and giving you the ability to speed it up or slow it down by casting specific abilities. 

What about Khora's Accumulating Whipclaw? Even adding a cooldown of 3 seconds in between whip attacks would be a nerf. Just try this yourself by using the whip and not use it again until you count to 3 after the previous whip animation is completed.

Nothing on Destiny resembles this. There's little to no synergy between abilities or abilities that are meant to be used together, which is why it can get away with long cooldowns and focus more on the gun combat. WF is focused on abilities rather than guns. Pretending cooldowns can be integrated without heavy nerfs to abilities is disingenious and you most likely know it unless you're experiencing cognitive dissonance and are willingly ignoring inconvenient side-effects of what you are proposing.

55 minutes ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

It also has stasis

Does it last over 60 seconds in a 30 meter bubble, like Limbo? No? 

Would decreasing the frequency Limbo can cast the bubble by adding a cooldown in between uses not be a nerf? Currently, you can cast it non-stop and turn it off and back on to restore its full size. If you can only trigger it and then must wait even 5 seconds before you can trigger it again after it runs off, it is a nerf. A nerf is not only a decrease in damage, but a decrease in usability or function. If damage alone was the barometer for what a nerf is then no one would say Larva and Dispensary are nerfed on the Helminth. 

You can't have it both ways dude. Pick your lane. 

55 minutes ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

pvevp, and crossplay

Those features have absolutely nothing to do with enemy AI vs the need for nerfs. 

55 minutes ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Its really not that hard to copy.

Let WF be WF. If you want for WF to copy even more stuff from Destiny then by all means go play Destiny. Nothing stops you from playing both and enjoying both for the things they do differently. You don't have to choose.

55 minutes ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Lavos proves cooldown abilities work, even if not being able to spam 1 button is considered a nerf, it doesnt actually nerf the abilities themselves. 

Lavos works because he was designed from the ground so his abilities don't rely on one another. Other than the element imbue mechanic, he's one of the least interactive WF's and the one with the least amount of ability synergy, with only his transmutation probe having synergy with his 4. Ironically-enough, Lavos shows why cooldowns don't work in most abilities: Try putting Gloom on him and see how it does, or try Radial Blind or Fire Walker, abilities that are either meant to be constantly used or sustained for as long as possible for maximum effect.

55 minutes ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

EZ fix!

Only if you're not thinking it through at all or if you're attempting to have your cake and eat it too by going left and right at once. You can't have it both ways.

[Loza03]

46 minutes ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Warframe had two 8 player raids and PVEPVP content in the form of Solar Rail Wars. I see way too many new players say its impossible to put in game simply because theyre ignorant to the fact it ALREADY WAS IN GAME, theyre just too new to know and too lazy to research. Raids required skill and coordination beyond spamming abilities. Rail wars severely limited ability usage and had everyone start with no mods equipped on weapons and frames to make it balanced. It was better than Conclave

The problem isnt just the devs are stuck between brainless single button spam nukes and making challenging content, but that the newer players and casuals are almost forcing their hands into nerfs simply because they lack skill and want instant gratification

As you may have noticed. They are not in the game any longer. The former were, honestly speaking, hardly played even by 'Raid' standards which are always niche. And Rail Conflicts bred immense amounts of toxicity.

58 minutes ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

For a game that claims to be about "ninjas"... enemies and players cannot even counter parry/riposte like Dark Souls or Nioh, yet we can play a guitar and collect stuffed animals?? WOW great DEsign 🤯

Actually you can parry. Block an incoming melee attack with good timing and they're left open for a finisher.

Now consider: How often do you use this feature?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Actually you can parry. Block an incoming melee attack with good timing and they're left open for a finisher.

Now consider: How often do you use this feature?

A lot of mechanics got power creeped into irrelevance. Warframe 2021 to Warframe 2013, is what Castlevania 4 is to Castlevania 1.

 

[Loza03]

10 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

A lot of mechanics got power creeped into irrelevance. Warframe 2021 to Warframe 2013, is what Castlevania 4 is to Castlevania 1.

 

Honestly, this feels like a pretty fair assessment of the situation.

 

I still like Warframe. A lot. It's still really fun, but man, some aspects are just not designed for its current gameplay.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Honestly, this feels like a pretty fair assessment of the situation.

 

I still like Warframe. A lot. It's still really fun, but man, some aspects are just not designed for its current gameplay.

*old man voice* back in my day revives were considered special! You only got 4 a day and it cost plat to get more. 

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I still like Warframe. A lot. It's still really fun, but man, some aspects are just not designed for its current gameplay.

Like Assault Rifles with a base damage of 24?

...Yes I am that salty over the Ambassador, on paper it is basically my dream weapon...in execution it is such an appalling failure I can feel the sodium in my body crystalizing as we speak.

But on the actual topic of what I'm quoting, it is rather painful to see just how much has been power crept into not being that useful, like Radial Javelin which falls off a cliff so quickly despite how it was when Warframe started (before my time, but I heard it was at least not  "lol Radial Javelin" like it currently is).

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Like Assault Rifles with a base damage of 24?

...Yes I am that salty over the Ambassador, on paper it is basically my dream weapon...in execution it is such an appalling failure I can feel the sodium in my body crystalizing as we speak.

But on the actual topic of what I'm quoting, it is rather painful to see just how much has been power crept into not being that useful, like Radial Javelin which falls off a cliff so quickly despite how it was when Warframe started (before my time, but I heard it was at least not  "lol Radial Javelin" like it currently is).

Radial jav used to be THE meta. Excal with trinity ob draco xD i remember that

[Aldain]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Radial jav used to be THE meta. Excal with trinity ob draco xD i remember that

Meanwhile in today's Warframe it is completely useless past level 30 at best.

How the mighty have fallen...T_T

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

Just now, Aldain said:

Meanwhile in today's Warframe it is completely useless past level 30 at best.

How the mighty have fallen...T_T

*laughs in bounce pad and super jump*

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

*laughs in bounce pad and super jump*

*laughs AT bounce pad and super jump*

[--F--NerevarCM]

6 hours ago, (PSN)True_Reclaimer said:

Abilities should not be nerfed, they simply need to remake the core systems. Destiny puts abilities on a cooldown, with supers on excessively long ones. It also has stasis, pvp, pvevp, and crossplay. Its really not that hard to copy. Lavos proves cooldown abilities work, even if not being able to spam 1 button is considered a nerf, it doesnt actually nerf the abilities themselves. EZ fix!

Warframe had two 8 player raids and PVEPVP content in the form of Solar Rail Wars. I see way too many new players say its impossible to put in game simply because theyre ignorant to the fact it ALREADY WAS IN GAME, theyre just too new to know and too lazy to research. Raids required skill and coordination beyond spamming abilities. Rail wars severely limited ability usage and had everyone start with no mods equipped on weapons and frames to make it balanced. It was better than Conclave

The problem isnt just the devs are stuck between brainless single button spam nukes and making challenging content, but that the newer players and casuals are almost forcing their hands into nerfs simply because they lack skill and want instant gratification

Imagine if instead of nerfing out raids and solar rail wars, DE spent the time they WASTED making skateboards, fishing, mining, and space taxis and put the actual WAR into Warframe. But no were left with a huge mess of abandoned content islands, weak storyline, and no real endgame

For a game that claims to be about "ninjas"... enemies and players cannot even counter parry/riposte like Dark Souls or Nioh, yet we can play a guitar and collect stuffed animals?? WOW great DEsign 🤯

Do you even play this game? When you started ? 2 weeks ago?

There is parry/riposte in the game. But why anyone would parry a single enemy while there's 200 enemies around you? Why would you parry to kill a single enemy if you can simply mash E and kill hordes with a single swing?

Solar Rails were the WORST content ever added in the game and literally made the game have DDOS attacks everytime so that the same alliances could stay in power. The gameplay was so busted that if a side had a Trinity in the team, they already won the fight. Ash could literally kill the entire map with Bladestorm without any way to prevent it.

And cooldowns ARE NERFS. Or you think having a cooldown on a Mesa or Saryn that spam abilities in the energy system will become more powerful having to wait seconds to cast the ability again after using it?

[Andele3025]

Also for irony, can we point out how the weapons that REALLY should have highest follow through (heavy blades, polearms, arguably scythes and whips) got the reverse?

On 2021-07-11 at 1:46 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Wasnt the follow through changes planned though since the first talk of melee nerfs?

You mean the one that happened when the first actual melee nerf happened (with melee 2.9998)?
Because follow through in the first place has only existed for some 4 patches pre old blood (iirc poe with 2nd pass on zaws or so) and wasnt a mechanic and till melee 2.9998 it was only some 5-20% damage loss per target depending on weapon category as can be seen through numerous people doing weapon showcases on youtube.

[Corvid]

11 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Actually you can parry. Block an incoming melee attack with good timing and they're left open for a finisher.

Now consider: How often do you use this feature?

Correction: Parrying is not timing-based, it's RNG-based. Outside of a couple of stagger-resistant enemies, any blocked melee attack has a chance to open up the enemy in question to a finisher, even if you've just been holding your guard up non-stop.