Ever really think about crewmen?

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

They have Nullifiers. That's a good enough justification to crush them like bugs. 

[Kaotyke]

2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Simply consider that concepts like good and evil don't really apply, we're at war with those factions, and killing from a higher moral ground is not a thing at war, life is not that simple.

And really ? Killing grineer could be seen as bad because they're technically mentally deficient ? Really ? We're not killing them because they are mentally deficient, we're killing them because they have opposed interests to ours, and because they shoot at us on sight.

And remember what was the first cutscene of the Awakening? Corpses of Ostrons floating in shallow water. The culprits? Grineer.

In that same opening mission we see an Ostron village on fire, people on the ground, some crying their hearts out in front of corpses. Those are civilians. The culprits? Grineer.

Kahl was just a smarter one. We see the war in his perspective. We see how willing he is to die for his brothers and sisters. But he would just as willing gun down the people of Cetus.

I like that DE is making those characters, it shows different perspectives, but it should in no way make them "good guys". Hell, there are none of those here. The Tenno are the closest one, but even THEN, it's ambiguous at some points. 

I would make some real world analogies here but... Let's not.

[Hypernaut1]

I don't really think it's fair to call the Tenno bad guys or the equivalent to the grineer and corpus factions. 

Grinner and Corpus exploit innocent people, the tenno, vicious as they may be, are still fighting for those that can't defend themselves. 

[Loza03]

20 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

You talking about Chains of Harrow? Rell aint dead.

Maybe.

It's not really entirely clear if Rell dies at the end, died ages ago and has just been hanging around as a spirit, or if the terminology he used used that he's 'sleepy' and 'resting' is being used more literally than it typically is in literature.

Rell's very far on the 'fantasy' side of Warframe's 'future fantasy' aesthetic.

[Infirito]

Tenno are mercs. We kill whoever we're paid to kill. ^_^

[Fallen77]

il y a 1 minute, Kaotyke a dit :

And remember what was the first cutscene of the Awakening? Corpses of Ostrons floating in shallow water. The culprits? Grineer.

In that same opening mission we see an Ostron village on fire, people on the ground, some crying their hearts out in front of corpses. Those are civilians. The culprits? Grineer.

Kahl was just a smarter one. We see the war in his perspective. We see how willing he is to die for his brothers and sisters. But he would just as willing gun down the people of Cetus.

I like that DE is making those characters, it shows different perspectives, but it should in no way make them "good guys". Hell, there are none of those here. The Tenno are the closest one, but even THEN, it's ambiguous at some points. 

I would make some real world analogies here but... Let's not.

I'd say ambiguous is very generous for the tenno.

We take all kinds of jobs, from anyone, we never ask questions on why we're doing any of this, we're just savage guns for hire roaming around, and the last thing we were known for before natah woke us up was to annihilate an empire because a sentient mimic told us so.

Who knows, maybe the ostron and fortuna were lucky to have hired us first, or we would be decimating them right now.

How many captured solaris have seen us keep our crowns because it was more profitable at the time, then proceed to blow up the ship they were on.

Heck, maybe the ostrons in the cutscene had it coming in some way, they make weapons, they can fight, do we believe what natah tells us there ? Maybe it was a cruel ambush on grineer diplomats that didn't work. I don't think so, but who can be sure trully ?

[Kaotyke]

27 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

I'd say ambiguous is very generous for the tenno.

We take all kinds of jobs, from anyone, we never ask questions on why we're doing any of this, we're just savage guns for hire roaming around, and the last thing we were known for before natah woke us up was to annihilate an empire because a sentient mimic told us so.

Who knows, maybe the ostron and fortuna were lucky to have hired us first, or we would be decimating them right now.

How many captured solaris have seen us keep our crowns because it was more profitable at the time, then proceed to blow up the ship they were on.

Heck, maybe the ostrons in the cutscene had it coming in some way, they make weapons, they can fight, do we believe what natah tells us there ? Maybe it was a cruel ambush on grineer diplomats that didn't work. I don't think so, but who can be sure trully ?

You are mixing gameplay mechanic and what happens in universe.

No, no. You have no leg to stand on in playing devil's advocate in this after what we saw in the Top-Cow Comics, which was canonized when Little Duck mentions "Seen' a lot of your kind since an accident with a blind girl and  a Void Gate."

 

[CatboyPrincess]

The canon is very clear that the Tenno are good guys, albeit flawed.

[RazerXPrime]

54 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Maybe.

It's not really entirely clear if Rell dies at the end, died ages ago and has just been hanging around as a spirit, or if the terminology he used used that he's 'sleepy' and 'resting' is being used more literally than it typically is in literature.

Rell's very far on the 'fantasy' side of Warframe's 'future fantasy' aesthetic.

Well he pops up quite often in my Orbiter for a person who's supposed to be dead.

[Loza03]

Just now, RazerXPrime said:

Well he pops up quite often in my Orbiter for a person who's supposed to be dead.

That's the Man in the Wall, a different entity. We have multiple corroborating sources that the Man exists: The Lotus in the Ropaloyst refers to the 'Wall's other Face' and the Necraloid Room Lore also has a character have an interaction with him.

The Man in the Wall is a being that was possessing Rell, not Rell himself.

[RazerXPrime]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That's the Man in the Wall, a different entity. We have multiple corroborating sources that the Man exists: The Lotus in the Ropaloyst refers to the 'Wall's other Face' and the Necraloid Room Lore also has a character have an interaction with him.

The Man in the Wall is a being that was possessing Rell, not Rell himself.

Ah, good thing Warframe explains everything clearly in their quests. At any rate, Rell resting doesn't mean we kill him eh.

[Loza03]

10 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Ah, good thing Warframe explains everything clearly in their quests. At any rate, Rell resting doesn't mean we kill him eh.

I mean the whole quest is about how Rell is holding back the Man in the Wall. The entity is referred to on at least eight occasions throughout the quest. The literal first thing that happens in the quest is Rell talking about the Man in the Wall, and the War Within ends with the player being possessed, the process causing them to develop the same eyes as the entity that appears in the Orbiter.

 

Edit: To respond to the second point - 'rest in peace' is a common idiom to say that someone is dead. I acknowledge that this isn't by necessity meaning that Rell is dead, because RELL is the one who says he's resting. Rell is autistic, and it is common for some people with autism to not use idioms.

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

Funny thing, it's the Grineer that have people you should feel sorry for killing, not the corpus.  Not all of them, of course, but one specific unit.
Now, mind you, we're talking about units that pose no threat, provide no support, and provide no reward if killed.  Corpus crewmen are all hostile, and will attack once they see you.  Treasurers and sister candidates have no attacks and provide no support, but do result in rewards when killed.
On the Grineer side, all Grineer encountered in missions are automatically hostile... Right?  No.  The Grineer Drudge can be found on the shipyard tileset, and is by default, neutral.  They appear hostile to enemy radar, but unless provoked they will not attack, even if you're killing everyone else in the area.  In fact I believe that even your companions will ignore them as they are non-combat units.  They're literally just there to build or repair ships.

The Corpus do have non-combat people, but they're all safely locked inside those little glass cubicles.

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, RazerXPrime said:

Ah, good thing Warframe explains everything clearly in their quests. At any rate, Rell resting doesn't mean we kill him eh.

Yeah, I mean, its outright told to your face multiple times.

• Rell: "Rap. Tap. Tap. The man in the wall."
• Palladino: "The man in the wall! That is what he called it. Hush... try to follow his voice!"

• Lotus: "Rell... it's just you, alone and trapped in a Transference loop. Don't give into these delusions of Void exposure. There is no man in the wall."
• Rell: "Don't say that!"

• Lotus: "If Rell's been caught in a Transference loop for this long... the psychological effects could have been catastrophic. This 'man in the wall', these delusions, symptoms of the Void exposure all Tenno experienced. I hope that Palladino can find peace for Rell so this never happens again."

• Lotus: "Rell's warnings... those dire consequences... he was talking about Void exposure, wasn't he? The effect it has on human minds is well understood..."
• Palladino: "But it's not. This isn't some kind of deep pressure bends as Margulis suspected. Rell saw what it was, truly. An entity, indifferent. Old as stars."

• Palladino: "By sacred shadow and righteous blood - Blessed Rell! Your aged Vessel is dust and your chains are broken. Be free!"
• Rell: "Mmm. But the man in the wall. Who will... ?"

Only if you were not paying attention at all you wont be able to see they were talking of it.

[Fallen77]

il y a 6 minutes, Kaotyke a dit :

You are mixing gameplay mechanic and what happens in universe.

No, no. You have no leg to stand on in playing devil's advocate in this after what we saw in the Top-Cow Comics, which was canonized when Little Duck mentions "Seen' a lot of your kind since an accident with a blind girl and  a Void Gate."

 

I'm not trying to make a case for anything, just fun little observations.

I didn't read that comic, just working from what I saw in the game.

Where do you draw the line between gameplay and raw story then ? Without taking third party content into the equation. At which point, from what we see in game, has what I said been undeniably countered ? Legit trying to understand your pov, I don't see any direct contradiction (well, from what I remember that is).

Who are the ones giving us orders ? A sentient mimic for the MOST part, a dax that was working (against his will but still) for the kweens, sure Konzu and Eudico seem to have the good of others in mind, but are we working for them because of good morality, or because they pay nicely ?

And of course we take our powers partly from a systemwide infestation and partly from a void demon that I personnaly don't trust very much.

In the end, I'm sure we will be the beacons of goodness that we can expect from the video game protagonists that we are, but right now, from where I stand, we're nothing but careless mercenaries working for our own selfish good at best, and careless mercenaries working for darker reasons at worst.

In the end everyone sucks, we'll just be the ones writing history once this is over.

[Hypernaut1]

I'm canon, I don't think the Warframes kill 1000s of troops in a single mission. I feel like that's just a gameplay consideration. 

[RazerXPrime]

28 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Yeah, I mean, its outright told to your face multiple times.

• Rell: "Rap. Tap. Tap. The man in the wall."
• Palladino: "The man in the wall! That is what he called it. Hush... try to follow his voice!"

• Lotus: "Rell... it's just you, alone and trapped in a Transference loop. Don't give into these delusions of Void exposure. There is no man in the wall."
• Rell: "Don't say that!"

• Lotus: "If Rell's been caught in a Transference loop for this long... the psychological effects could have been catastrophic. This 'man in the wall', these delusions, symptoms of the Void exposure all Tenno experienced. I hope that Palladino can find peace for Rell so this never happens again."

• Lotus: "Rell's warnings... those dire consequences... he was talking about Void exposure, wasn't he? The effect it has on human minds is well understood..."
• Palladino: "But it's not. This isn't some kind of deep pressure bends as Margulis suspected. Rell saw what it was, truly. An entity, indifferent. Old as stars."

• Palladino: "By sacred shadow and righteous blood - Blessed Rell! Your aged Vessel is dust and your chains are broken. Be free!"
• Rell: "Mmm. But the man in the wall. Who will... ?"

Only if you were not paying attention at all you wont be able to see they were talking of it.

Honestly I played this quest over a year ago and don't remember it or the story. So you can be condescending all you want. I don't have issues recalling other games quests at all. But Warframe quests are all just poor in narration. Gotta play that multiple times to understand what the hell is going on. This is because the story is told through the occassional voice comm and a codex entry.

And to be frank, you can go all over the place with the above narration in terms of interpretation. I'm glad it's very clear to you. Makes me feel a lot better about the quest story presentation.

[Kaotyke]

1 minute ago, RazerXPrime said:

Honestly I played this quest over a year ago and don't remember it or the story. So you can be condescending all you want. I don't have issues recalling other games quests at all. But Warframe quests are all just poor in narration. Gotta play that multiple times to understand what the hell is going on. This is because the story is told through the occassional voice comm and a codex entry.

And to be frank, you can go all over the place with the above narration in terms of interpretation. I'm glad it's very clear to you. Makes me feel a lot better about the quest story presentation.

Your welcome.

[GrayArchon]

6 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

Sentients had a reason to kill the Orokin: they knew the Orokin deliberately designed them with a weakness to Void energy, known as The Flaw. they were suppsoed to die to the Void's energy if they tried to come back from Tau, but instead they lived, at the cost of their fertility. as it turns out, Sentients really liked the idea of having kids, and were so enraged at the prospect of never being able to reproduce again that they declared war on the Orokin, thus starting the Old War.

I think most creatures and people would be a teensy bit angry if they got the snip without consent: reproduction is one of the the primal urges of all creatures, along with eating and defending oneself.

If the Sentients were so concerned about remaining fertile, they could have stayed in Tau and not come back. In the Natah quest, Lotus specifically says it is the journey to the Origin System that causes the infertility: "All missions to the Origin System required a sacrifice. Me and my kind become barren when crossing the gap. It is the one flaw we never overcame." Ballas' Vitruvian in The Sacrifice implies that the Sentients started the war to prevent the Orokin from destroying Tau ("But when you arrived at that distant world… you knew that in time, we would bring ruin to it as well. As we had to Earth. And so it was… we came to war."), but during the Ropalolyst Assassination mission, Natah says that the Orokin actually struck first, in response to the Sentients becoming… sentient ("Time began to change their light. Creativity. Pride. A will to live. So the Golden wrath came.")

So, how and why the Old War started is still somewhat shrouded in mystery, but it definitely wasn't anger over being sterilised.

6 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

Neptune, the Corpus Homeworld and home of Corposium, founded by Parvos Granum

We don't know where Corposium was/is. Neptune makes sense, but it could also be anywhere. And we don't know if it still exists today.

3 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

Rell aint dead.

Palladino implores you many times to send Rell to a permanent "rest" by destroying the vessel housing his soul. I don't know how much more clarity you need on the subject. If you complete Chains of Harrow after buying Harrow from the Market, you get an additional inbox message at the end that starts with "With the clarity that Rell's passing has given me…" In this context, "passing" is unambiguously a euphemism for "death".

The apparition you see later is the Man in the Wall, a separate entity that was also inhabiting Rell's body (the warframe Harrow) at the time.

[RazerXPrime]

6 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Palladino implores you many times to send Rell to a permanent "rest" by destroying the vessel housing his soul. I don't know how much more clarity you need on the subject. If you complete Chains of Harrow after buying Harrow from the Market, you get an additional inbox message at the end that starts with "With the clarity that Rell's passing has given me…" In this context, "passing" is unambiguously a euphemism for "death".

The apparition you see later is the Man in the Wall, a separate entity that was also inhabiting Rell's body (the warframe Harrow) at the time.

I think you missed the part where I was thinking Rell and the Man in the Wall are the same being.

Which, might actually still be true.

[Kaotyke]

18 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Where do you draw the line between gameplay and raw story then ? Without taking third party content into the equation.

Things that are made outside of quests, codex entries, events and dialog. Those paint a picture. But if its 3rd party content or not no longer maters when its acknowledged to have happened in-game.

19 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

At which point, from what we see in game, has what I said been undeniably countered ? Legit trying to understand your pov, I don't see any direct contradiction (well, from what I remember that is).

Every time Vay Hek says that he wants to destroy Cetus and hunt people there for sport. And the Entry about Cetus tell that the Unum makes a disruption field around it that disables weapons and makes hostile ships crash. Who cant enter the town? Grineer. Corpus enter to trade, Solaris enter to trade. As long as you dont have hostile intentions, the Unum allows entry. I see no Grineer there.

The Assault Mission says that a colony is being bombarded by the canon you must disable.

Inaros Quest has them gun down Baro's mother.

Those dont paint a pretty picture about the Grineer as a whole.

35 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Who are the ones giving us orders ? A sentient mimic for the MOST part, a dax that was working (against his will but still) for the kweens, sure Konzu and Eudico seem to have the good of others in mind, but are we working for them because of good morality, or because they pay nicely ?

Couldnt it be both things? Konzu even says "You pay me in red, I pay you in silver.", doing good is nice, but having extra incentive is also a bonus. 

We also went to those places because of distress signals (Deimos), Lotus' curiosity (Cetus), Fortuna by... chance? I'm not sure if Biz's transmitions in Discord are to be considered canon...

But at the start of those, we just went there, found someone who was in need of help: Saya, Loid, Thursby (now Legs) and just decided to help, then stuck around. 

I mean, we got there, helped expecting no reward and are now doing work, helping and getting paid for it. Its like asking why Forest Guards are paid. I mean, they MUST protect the wildlife of their areas because they want to protect them or because it pays nicely? Its a Black and White PoV.

51 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

And of course we take our powers partly from a systemwide infestation and partly from a void demon that I personnaly don't trust very much.

Yeah. But what choice do we have? Warframes are made from Infested flesh. The Tenno powers are from a doubious (if not outright Eldritch) source, but... what else could be done? Warframes are effective combat platforms. We wouldnt be able to Sync with them safely without the Void Powers (Sylvana tried, and described it as an oily, tortured existence and couldnt hold it for long).

57 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

In the end, I'm sure we will be the beacons of goodness that we can expect from the video game protagonists that we are, but right now, from where I stand, we're nothing but careless mercenaries working for our own selfish good at best, and careless mercenaries working for darker reasons at worst.

In the end everyone sucks, we'll just be the ones writing history once this is over.

Can I suggest you play Overlord (no, not the anime)? Or Dungeons (to play as the  Abominable Dastarly Evil)?

[LillyRaccune]

23 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Which, might actually still be true.

Spoiler

Man in the Wall is a life form that came from the void. It attacked Rell's consciousness and took control of "the harrowing vessel". After the boss fight, you put Rell's spirit to rest. The Man in the Wall, however is still very much alive and becomes your best bud and room mate and watches you while you sleep...

 

[RazerXPrime]

5 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

  Hide contents

Man in the Wall is a life form that came from the void. It attacked Rell's consciousness and took control of "the harrowing vessel". After the boss fight, you put Rell's spirit to rest. The Man in the Wall, however is still very much alive and becomes your best bud and room mate and watches you while you sleep...

 

I know, that's Rell's explanation. Who says he's right. Maybe the Man in the wall is an alternate persona. I dunno. Kind of makes sense. I mean it's speculation. But in a world where we have the void, a soul in a box and people trapped in another dimension, this isn't far fetched. XD

[(NSW)notyetawizard]

The way Corpus crewmen run towards their deaths by the thousands is noble and inspiring. They are far more courageous than I am—hesitant when facing even a single specter.

Such a shame it's all just for credits ... Perhaps their families are freed from debt when they die this way? Surely there's a better reason ... than just credits ...

[Captain_Rocket505]

Tell that to the corpus shooting at me lol