It's time to nerf Wukong

[Defion]

Perhaps switching to a diffrent server helps? I rarely come across any wukongs....

Also let me get this straight, A wukong enters your squad, does the thing it takes you longer do to (killing things and finishing the mission) yet you reap the benefits from the wukong, yet you want wukong banned for killing and doing things faster then you? Aaah I see that little "total kills" at the end results must be really hurting to see but if you close 1 of your eyes, you might not see it...

[--K--Sharkfin]

On 2022-05-13 at 4:30 PM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Reality Check:

Clearly more players enjoy playing Wukong that players complaining.

-the anecdotes of complainers claiming to see him so often supports this.

it doesn't make sense that a small minority should make decisions for a majority.

to be honest the only time I would complain having a wukong teammate in public squad is when it was mobile defence/defence/survival with potential rad proc but they don't have arcane healing. (I am not a wukong player so I am not sure if rad proc immunity affects the clone). For a very long time I play solo in sortie with rad harzard. Other times I just let them be lazy.  Afterall even the laziest wukong could contribute more than real afkers.  If that's how they could have fun, so be it? I don't expect much from public match anyway.

Besides, even without using titania/guass I could sprint faster and kill more than the majority of wukongs. So I keep my fun, which is killing the enemies.

[(PSN)nandotinho]

Wukong os te best

[gamingchair1121]

top ten weird ways to spell yareli

[Scar.brother.help.me]

On 2022-05-13 at 7:40 AM, Oggyswe said:

Or not? We should not ban anything from public. If you dont want to meet wukong then premake your groups theres a lfg channel. Public is the annoying mess and it accepts everyone. 

I will gladly do it if matchmaking becomes at least 20 times more comfortable, at leeeeeeast.

[Skoomaseller]

*Revenant

[Koed]

The meta/most effective strat right now (for killing as many enemies as possible as fast as possible) is of course AOE weapons. But also the game has heavily shifted towards grouping abilities like Larva, Ensnare etc. We used to have strong abilities, that could kill or deal significant damage to enemies around us, but no frame really has any strong AOE damage abilities atm, so we group enemies up and let our weapons do the damage or straight up just spam our AOE weapons and skip the first step.

The problem imo then becomes, that if AOE weapons get nerfed significantly, the only reliable/most viable strat will be to group enemies. So every frame will basically become the same thing. There will of course be different buffs and minor nuances but your play style in game will basically boil down to using Ensnare, and then kill them with your weapons. And to some extent it is this way already, because abilities are as weak at killing things as they are. 

I do think there is a meta problem (by meta I mean the most efficient way to kill groups of enemies), but I think it's bigger than just AOE being strong - it's also our damage abilities being too weak.

Solution 1: Mission types that doesn't require killing large groups of enemies. And as a sidenote; make tilsets that are more open where you can actually see the enemies approach, because right now there are so many narrow hallways and small rooms cluttered with boxes and other means of "cover", making it so darn boring to play non AOE weapons, because you constantly have to "find" the enemies or wait for them to make their way around the corner.

Solution 2: Give us other ways to kill large groups of enemies. And I'm just spitballing here, but strong aoe nuking abilities with heavy restrictions like cooldowns, long animations/charge up mechanic or enourmous energy cost. Melee 12x combo super AOE attacks. I dunno, SOMETHING - give us an alternative for killing lots of enemies.

A build that I am personally really loving atm is Pillage+Maim Equinox. I reach 400% Power strength for full armor strip, and after having killed a few enemies, I can nuke a big AOE with Maim. Like that's fun, takes some setup, requires Pillage line of sight and doesn't completely break the game or devolve to "press 4 to win". We need more frames that can do that.

TLDR; Nerfing AOE weapons changes so little and I think Warframe needs to try something else/additionally to shake up the meta. 

 

 

[Dauggie]

why bother, DE has been using this carrot and stick method for decade now. nerf something then slide some other OP thing.. then nerf that too after it has been a while. rinse and repeat.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

I wanna know where they said nerfs are coming 

[General-Pacman]

When did they say AoE is going to be nerfed? I can't find any dev workshops or posts related to that

[cute_moth.npc]

... They're not going to delete AoE as a viable strat, it's probably just not going to have zero drawbacks or competition after they're done adjustments lol. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Koed:

The meta/most effective strat right now (for killing as many enemies as possible as fast as possible) is of course AOE weapons. But also the game has heavily shifted towards grouping abilities like Larva, Ensnare etc. We used to have strong abilities, that could kill or deal significant damage to enemies around us, but no frame really has any strong AOE damage abilities atm, so we group enemies up and let our weapons do the damage or straight up just spam our AOE weapons and skip the first step.

The problem imo then becomes, that if AOE weapons get nerfed significantly, the only reliable/most viable strat will be to group enemies. So every frame will basically become the same thing. There will of course be different buffs and minor nuances but your play style in game will basically boil down to using Ensnare, and then kill them with your weapons. And to some extent it is this way already, because abilities are as weak at killing things as they are. 

I do think there is a meta problem (by meta I mean the most efficient way to kill groups of enemies), but I think it's bigger than just AOE being strong - it's also our damage abilities being too weak.

Solution 1: Mission types that doesn't require killing large groups of enemies. And as a sidenote; make tilsets that are more open where you can actually see the enemies approach, because right now there are so many narrow hallways and small rooms cluttered with boxes and other means of "cover", making it so darn boring to play non AOE weapons, because you constantly have to "find" the enemies or wait for them to make their way around the corner.

Solution 2: Give us other ways to kill large groups of enemies. And I'm just spitballing here, but strong aoe nuking abilities with heavy restrictions like cooldowns, long animations/charge up mechanic or enourmous energy cost. Melee 12x combo super AOE attacks. I dunno, SOMETHING - give us an alternative for killing lots of enemies.

A build that I am personally really loving atm is Pillage+Maim Equinox. I reach 400% Power strength for full armor strip, and after having killed a few enemies, I can nuke a big AOE with Maim. Like that's fun, takes some setup, requires Pillage line of sight and doesn't completely break the game or devolve to "press 4 to win". We need more frames that can do that.

TLDR; Nerfing AOE weapons changes so little and I think Warframe needs to try something else/additionally to shake up the meta. 

 

 

That's grossly exaggerated in my opinion. because there is lenz aoe bow. that's AOE!!!! how awesome imba is it? oh yes... even boltor prime (a weapon from 2013/2014) has better performance!
that's what it's about!

aoe is quite nice in normal missions where enemies drop like mosquitoes. but the strange authors don't want that to be true. then show us a gameplay where you can ONLY get along with an aoe weapon like lenz on sp mode!

(I can probably wait here until I retire)

[Koed]

41 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

When did they say AoE is going to be nerfed? I can't find any dev workshops or posts related to that

47 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

I wanna know where they said nerfs are coming 

What I know off:  "TennoCon is a day away, but once the dust settles we're going to compile and review all threads/comments on the AOE meta to plan for ways to address concerns" - DE-Marcus. Search for "the furax having its riven disposition" to find reddit thread with the response.

Nerf isn't specifically said, but I think we can guess what it means.

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, Koed said:

The problem imo then becomes, that if AOE weapons get nerfed significantly, the only reliable/most viable strat will be to group enemies. So every frame will basically become the same thing. 

Warframe existed for years before the AoE meta, so we've got solid evidence that what you are describing is unlikely to happen if the AoE meta goes away.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Koed said:

A build that I am personally really loving atm is Pillage+Maim Equinox. I reach 400% Power strength for full armor strip, and after having killed a few enemies, I can nuke a big AOE with Maim.

Oooh, build please.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Koed said:

The problem imo then becomes, that if AOE weapons get nerfed significantly, the only reliable/most viable strat will be to group enemies. So every frame will basically become the same thing. 

This was already the meta at least as early as 2015, if not earlier. Greedy Mag, back before that build got nerfed, would pull all enemies together so Mesa/Excalibur could kill them and Nekros could desecrate them.

It did not make every frame basically the same thing

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Nuke frames were an issue before DE gave aoe weapon self stagger. Why they are not use much? Resource cost. I can clear a room with my kuva ogris while bullet jump to the next room collecting ammo along the way never caring about if I have enough ammo to kill more enemy units. Then there's missions where killing enemy units isn't the objective like spy. Who does spy mission? Other mission type exists. Mobile Defense. CC frame shine there. But the new Exiumus rework screw that up. More damage is better now. Imgaine if we get a mission type where we auto fail if we do damage to enemy units. Take Loki, sumsume Silence., profit.

[TeaHands]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Imagine if we get a mission type where we auto fail if we do damage to enemy units. Take Loki, subsume Silence., profit.

There would be an uproar on the internet that this game isn't Metal Gear and that they are being restricted to specific frames, weapons, builds, etc, which is bad game design. Like how people reacted to the stealth section in TNW.

 

Personally I would 100% be down for a pure stealth mission. I don't know if I'd want it to be super cheesable like that, but still. I'd love for more missions to employ stealth or quick movement.

[vanaukas]

The AOE bros are loosing their minds already and the nerfs aren't here yet, start gathering popcorns because we are about to watch new saltiness levels.

[trst]

Even then that would still be preferable to the current meta.

Players ""needing"" to use grouping abilities to clear out rooms at least leaves more room for other players to engage with enemies than spamming an AOE weapon does. Just consider the classic issue with Nidus of players killing his Larva pulls before he can for stacks.

That said your solutions are nonsensical. There are missions that don't require killing enemies already and it doesn't matter as enemies grant rewards for being killed thus every mission always incentivizes killing things. And nuke abilities always have been and will continue to be nuke abilities, changing AOE weapons doesn't mean suddenly abilities are bad.

 

The game certainty needs more than just nerfing AOE weapons. But an adequate nerf to them is a considerable step in the correct direction.

[Josh486]

Any meta is preferable to this one.

[Koed]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Oooh, build please.

https://overframe.gg/build/new/2462/equinox-prime/?bs=WzEsMjQ2MiwzMCwxLFtbNjc3LDUsMF0sWzgwNiw1LDBdLFs4MzEsMTAsMF0sWzc5MiwxMCwxXSxbNzkzLDEwLDFdLFs4MDIsMTAsMF0sWzE5OCwzLDJdLFsxNDMwLDEwLDJdLFszMDAsNSwxXSxbODAxLDEwLDBdLFs1ODY2LDUsMF0sWzIyMDcsNSwwXV1d

Note: Running with Decay Key to reduce shields and I have 2 augur mods on my Epitaph primer. This gives pillage 2 shield gates - when activated and 1,45s later when wave returns. And obviously getting 165% extra strength from Molt Augmented, Equinox 3rd with augment and Growing powe to reach +400% str. Enjoy :)

[Koed]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Warframe existed for years before the AoE meta, so we've got solid evidence that what you are describing is unlikely to happen if the AoE meta goes away.

Mate, you can't compare Warframe from previous years to now. The game, the toolset we have been giving/taken from us, new frames, helminth etc etc. You seriously wanna make the argument, that because we didn't have AOE meta during Mag Polarize map clearing days or Equinox Maim days, then it won't happen now? Of course it wasn't grouping or AOE meta. We had other tools like OP Warframe abilities, that would clear maps long before even Kuva Bramma/Zarr would get to fire. It was a completely different game that can't be compared to Warframe today.

[Koed]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

This was already the meta at least as early as 2015, if not earlier. Greedy Mag, back before that build got nerfed, would pull all enemies together so Mesa/Excalibur could kill them and Nekros could desecrate them.

It did not make every frame basically the same thing

Like I stated in above post - you can't compare it, because its 2 completely different games. Every frame wasn't the same, because they had OP abilities. But we can't do greedy mag today. We can't do Excal Jav map clear. We can't do negative duration Saryn. We don't have any quick fix abilities, but people will do what is fastest and most efficient, and that is Grouping and AOE atm, and take away AOE and you are left with grouping and probably beam weapons. 

[ant99999]

3 hours ago, Koed said:

But also the game has heavily shifted towards grouping abilities like Larva,

The only time I use grouping abilities is to pull enemies from consoles on Interception. So I didn't really experience this shift you are talking about.

I can't be certain of course, but there is definitely a possibility you are confusing your own preferred playstyle with how everyone plays the game.