It's time to nerf Wukong

[Yamazuki]

33 minutes ago, Domztheone1 said:

lol. didn't really explain how wukong deserves a nerf. every warframe is op. Should wisp and mesa get a nerf next? 

DE doesn't actually care if something is op or not, they really only care if something is used or not. DE likes getting people invested into something, let it sit there, then tone it down so people move onto something else. They can claim it was a 'mistake', but it stops being a simple mistake after it's been done hundreds of times; especially given this has been a thing in the 'live service' genre of games before Warframe existed.

If they didn't have the attention span of a toddler, they would also be able to release things in a weaker state and just bring them upward, but they tend to abandon new Warframes fairly quickly.

Wukong is just good for the 'casual' player base. They don't care about efficiency, and want simpler options. Wukong removes the need to know how to actually Bullet Jump due to Cloudwalker; this abilility was even nerfed/'bug fixed' multiple times in the past. He has high base defense stats in addition to his passive, so his survivability isn't tied to spamming cc, maintaining obnoxious buff timers, or worrying about energy in general. Especially with enemies that delete energy or remove buffs, in addition to cc immunity.

Gauss/Titania are better for relevant grinds that involve loading in, completing objective, then extracting. "Endurance" grinds, such as Arbitration, Wukong isn't used for that either.

It's also too bad they likely aren't even going to address Iron Staff being disadvantaged over standard weapons due to it being underwhelming as is, in addition to it being considered an ability being a drawback in many situations. Out of all those people playing Wukong, how many even use Iron Staff, and how many even kept it on him once they were able to use Helminth?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb XHADgaming:

I think wukong should remain playable even after their nerfs and not completely gut any parts of his kit. Since many people have invested a lot of time and effort towards perfecting their wukong builds and having a complete gutted nerf of his kit and identity is not the direction I want too see "fixes" turn into.

 

Already had my opinions on the whole AOE debacle but not Wukong. I think Wukong fixes should be evaluated independent of other fixes. I don't think a frame should be getting a major serious nerf since they failed to account for two things at once. Think back to marked for death and how we had both a nerf and a bugfix for it which completely destroyed the ability and turned it into a 0% playrate and required buffing afterwards.

 

On the topic of Wukong fixes, please fix the god damn ledge grab animation interaction with Cloud Walker super annoying that this still isn't addressed.

 

Also please look at older frames and lesser used frames. Which luckily DE has been a bit of lately but I think it could be done on a much more consistent basis than it is right now. 

however, this is true of many other warframes. example would be khora. she was completely ruined with 1st skill change. good skill is now a joke!
and wukong is nothing special. this is so ridiculous! I'm more concerned with many players who like his 2nd skill.

[Voltage]

44 minutes ago, Domztheone1 said:

lol. didn't really explain how wukong deserves a nerf. every warframe is op. Should wisp and mesa get a nerf next? 

Neither of those Warframes play the game for you. You're doing an apples to oranges comparison. Wukong is overpowered not because he deals exceptionally more damage or that he outclasses another Warframe's role, it's because in 90% of general content, you can take Wukong and Celestial Twin will play for you. The other thing you need to consider is demographics. Most old players likely aren't the ones abusing Wukong's kit. He's also a dojo Warframe with high accessibility.

I would love to see Pablo put the On Call Crew member on that chart and see where it lands.

[Mag_Gaming]

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

who thinks that wukong is op... needs help! professional help!

i have dozens of builds that are way better than wukong. and wukong was nothing more than a speed runner to use in simple missions. but since a joker thinks it's op, then he should play with the warframe with the most content. but! Of course he doesn't...

this is all so embarrassing.

This guy has to be a troll.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

I can`t rely on this stat when we have no idea what means what, we need to know which dot represent what frame. As for wukong I would remove the healing and insted make his 3 have no cap on armour after all the ability is called "Defy".

Here`s what I would do to him:

Spoiler

1st ability:

·       Wukong should spawn two clones, one using primary weapon and the other secondary weapon. When you switch weapons, one of the clones will switch to melee.

·        Since you have two clones, you can mark up to two enemies for each of them to attack.

·        After marking the enemy, the clone(s) should teleport to the target.

·       Clones can use whatever stance you have in your melee weapon and stance from the 4th ability.

·       When you crouch the clone will crouch and not attack enemies unless you mark them.

·       When using melee, the clone`s sprint speed is increased by 30%

·        Instead of the clone teleporting to you when you move far from it, pressing the ability on the ground will teleport the clone to that location.

 

2nd ability:

·       Pressing the left trigger (controller) should give the option to increase or decrease its speed.

·       Sentinels and companions are invulnerable while activated.

 

3rd ability:

·       There is no limit to how much armour you can receive.

 

4th ability:

·       The second part of the combo with the kick animation should (small) ragdoll the enemy hit instead of a knockdown.

·       The ground slam animation should look like the slams when Wukong`s staff is bigger. (the slam we have now looks weak)

·       The ground finisher animation should be Wukong jabbing his staff into the enemy`s back.

·       Pressing the secondary fire while aiming at an enemy will jab his staff into the dealing damage and pull Wukong to them doing a flykick closing the gap.

Fix: When Wukong stands still with no weapons equipped, the animation is meant to show him with the staff in his hand but you can`t see.

 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like specters and any of their equipped weapons count towards usage stats. This seems to be the case in-game, as my on-call crewmates are able to contribute usage by carrying weapons I don't have equipped. For Wukong, it wouldn't surpise me if his usage is so far above everyone else because his twin essentially doubles the usage rate he'd normally have. Additionally, Wisp is one of the most popular frames to use for specters, so that might also be inflating her usage rates. I'm fairly certain that Wisp and Wukong would remain exceptionally popular without these errors, but take these charts with a grain of salt.

As for whether Wukong needs a nerf, I personally don't think he needs anything big, and I believe most of his problems come from the AoE meta that we're in, but I guess we'll have to see what DE does to him.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Well Wukongs usage doesnt mean he is op. The op part is his twin and combinations of aoe meta.... His twin and on call crew use modded weps. Rest of specters use default but scales with the lvl. So id expect his twin get some sort duration added or something like set time of x minutes/seconds with y cooldown. Other than his twin he is just a frame good for moving arround and tank early on.

[Otaku_Hyen]

Specters are not so strong because the stats and their AI. Eximuses now with the overguard are better choices. Wukong in other hand with the twin is stronger also can travel fast but the iron staff is weak relative. DE usually band aid things and later claim the mistake was to let players have fun or enjoy different playstyles. The problem is they are waiting 2-3 year then someone at the team start to think "oh what, that item or frame is so strong, it abuses the game, so let's nerf if".

I have also some bad feelings about mag and excal reworks because the beginner friendlyness could mean they will nerf these frames to so the newer players are forced to get other frames instead. As for the Wukong I think they could only nerf the twin because it is the thing that does play for the player. 

[Numerikuu]

1 hour ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

which aspect is pablo considering the offending area?

100% the clone, with his Cloudwalker being second. Mainly the clone though.

Saw this day coming the moment they dropped his rework. His 1 was broken from the get go and I'm surprised they okayed it. If anything, I really hope this means his 4 will be made better. Make his 4 better and have his clone only able to use that. Boom. Problem solved.

[Kaggelos]

Apologies in advance for my manners and lack of tact, but my patience is running thin as of late, you have been warned;

 

Good. Some justified nerfs need to be implemented. 

I've had it with the entitlement and the whining of our braindead power fantasy and efficiency.

Do NOT be afraid to punish unskillful players DE. The recent Eximus rework was a huge step in the right direction (most fun ive had was during an eximus modifier interception, in which we #*!%ing lost!).

CC got nerfed? Good, re-strategize around that using your brain a bit (dodge, aim properly, take out targets that you can deal with fast, then focus on the root of the problem).

Its baffling, in other games you just deal with the difficulty. Here? Us? We throw a hissy fit at the mere mention of obstruction of our power fantasy.

Limitations (not excessive though) are what offer us the most fun.

 

There, i effing said it. 

[MqToasty]

So as a player who used to main Wukong (and played him so much in the past that he's still the most used in my profile), I have to say that he is a godsend for players who are caught in these situations:

1. Play solo.  An infinite duration specter for only 25 Energy and no resource cost is just too good to pass up, AOE weapon or not.
2. Have yet to collect enough mods/endo/potatoes to easily sustain a bunch of OP'd builds.  Wukong is quite tanky, so he's not likely to die even if you do not have many survival mods on (plus his passive gives you extra lives).  Early on when potatoes are still a precious resource, of course players would want to be judicious with their use and reserve them for the frame(s) that can cover the most bases.  Wukong is great for anything that does not involve defense, so of course he is a top pick.
3. Have yet to reach complete Energy independence.  Early on, Energy is a premium, uncertain resource.  So playing Energy-hungry frames without Arcane Energize, Wellspring, Streamline, etc. becomes very risky as a string of bad luck or a magnetic proc can completely ruin your run.

Now, I'm not saying that Wukong does not need a nerf.  But I am pointing out that there is a legitimate group of players who rely on Wukong because he is the most reasonable pick given where they are in the game.  I'm sure there are also a bunch of near-AFK farmers who use Wukong just for the AOE spam, but I do hope any nerf will be precise enough that it correctly targets the undesired behavior and is not a hamfisted one that takes away a good crutch to help players through the mid-game.

[DrBorris]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

AoE is next considering it is so overused it is causing for Furax and Furax Wraith rivens disposition nerfs.

This order is what I don't like. Wukong's kit isn't all that powerful in a vacuum. What makes Wukong powerful is his ability to kill everything as well or better than a DPS ability with an AoE weapon, and to give that ability to his "turret."

[Voltage]

On 2022-08-05 at 12:30 AM, Berzerkules said:

Have fun making complaint threads about nuke frames or whatever meta fills the void after aoe takes a hit. 

Remember the simpler times of people only complaining about Ember Prime? Then we got Maiming Strike, then Synoid Simulor, then we got Scoliac Riven Mods, Trinity Castanas, hmmm, there's always something 🤔

[Lutesque]

Wait wait wait....

DE is Saying Wukong is OP now ? 🤔....

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

1) "Overpowered" can perfectly apply to something that is so easy, convenient, and effective at once that it pretty much is a no brainer in most situations. 

Which Describes Octavia Perfectly.... Wukong is Simply Lazy....far from over Overpowered....

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

 

2) That chart speaks for itself.

Indeed it does.... It's a Usage Chart....

And it will be the Same next year with an Entirely Different Frame Used more than Everyone else just like it was recently with Mesa Prime far Above Everyone Else and Before that it was Saryn Prime Far above Everyone Else... 😐.

You know.... It wouldn't surprise me if DE simply is Nerfing Wukong to make Revenant Prime seem Overpowered when he finally Comes out so they can sell more Prime Access 🤔.

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

3) If you don't see that's a problem I have an NFT collection of Nintendo-owned IP to sell you.

Obviously there's an Issue... But Wukong's Usage Rate is a Symptom....not the Root Problem...

But since this is DE we"re talking about here they prefer to Address the Symptoms rather than address the actual problem.... which.... I mean.... That's fine or whatever but the part that really ticks me off is they have the Nerve to Lie and call him OP now. 😐....

Then we will be right back here Next Year with an entirely Different Warframe that's "Too OP"...

[Merrcenary]

2 часа назад, FulfillMyWill сказал:

That's why you should never share "hidden gem" builds (if you discover one) with anyone. With higher usage comes higher chance of that gear being nerfed.

yeah that's why i started to ignore people who whispers me something like "can you link your %gun% build?"

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Why do I have a feeling this is done before mobile players gets their hands on wukong?

[Giagantic]

Yeah, anyone that thinks it is anything other then his clone doesn't have knowledge of past nerfs. Wukongs clone fits the nerfhammer of past frames due to their ability to quite literally play the game for you, namely Ember's World of Fire which was nerfed because people would just activate it and stand still, only moving occasionally in order to avoid being activity timer'd in affinity farm missions like Hydron. How will they nerf it? Probably add a duration to it and maybe cooldown timer, which would definitely hurt it. I hope they don't touch Cloudwalker personally as I like the ability and in compensation hope they make his 4 more usable and less wonky.

[Lutesque]

41 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

The op part is his twin and combinations of aoe meta....

There's nothing OP about it.... Twin is Simply Lazy.... Just like Mesa was..... Saryn is the only OP one from the List of Popular Warframes....

You can even see exactly why he's Being Nerfed.... DE is giving you a Usage Chart.... Not an Actual Comparison of how useful he actually is....

43 minutes ago, Otaku_Hyen said:

The problem is they are waiting 2-3 year then someone at the team start to think "oh what, that item or frame is so strong, it abuses the game, so let's nerf if".

Probably because they aren't making any more Money off him his prime Access ended Ages ago and now so Many People have him that nobody's buying Platinum to trade for Wukong Prime.... He's also A Tenno Lab Frame so there's no RNG in Farming him henc no reason to pay platinum to Skip the Grind....

I bet DE is Nerfing Wukong because he's so Lazy that it's effecting Every Prime Access that Came After him. 🤔....

40 minutes ago, Kaggelos said:

 

Do NOT be afraid to punish unskillful players DE.

While not Rewarding Skillful Ones... 😐 Nice...

41 minutes ago, Kaggelos said:

(most fun ive had was during an eximus modifier interception, in which we #*!%ing lost!).

Masochist Confirmed 🧐....?

42 minutes ago, Kaggelos said:

Its baffling, in other games you just deal with the difficulty. Here? Us? We throw a hissy fit at the mere mention of obstruction of our power fantasy.

It's also Baffling in other Games you get Dedicated Servers... Actual Balance Changed.... Actual Reason from Developers why something is Being Changed.... Actual Responses to Feedback....

Yep... Nothing wrong with Warframe... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

31 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

So as a player who used to main Wukong (and played him so much in the past that he's still the most used in my profile), I have to say that he is a godsend for players who are caught in these situations:

1. Play solo.  An infinite duration specter for only 25 Energy and no resource cost is just too good to pass up, AOE weapon or not.
2. Have yet to collect enough mods/endo/potatoes to easily sustain a bunch of OP'd builds.  Wukong is quite tanky, so he's not likely to die even if you do not have many survival mods on (plus his passive gives you extra lives).  Early on when potatoes are still a precious resource, of course players would want to be judicious with their use and reserve them for the frame(s) that can cover the most bases.  Wukong is great for anything that does not involve defense, so of course he is a top pick.
3. Have yet to reach complete Energy independence.  Early on, Energy is a premium, uncertain resource.  So playing Energy-hungry frames without Arcane Energize, Wellspring, Streamline, etc. becomes very risky as a string of bad luck or a magnetic proc can completely ruin your run.

Now, I'm not saying that Wukong does not need a nerf.  But I am pointing out that there is a legitimate group of players who rely on Wukong because he is the most reasonable pick given where they are in the game.  I'm sure there are also a bunch of near-AFK farmers who use Wukong just for the AOE spam, but I do hope any nerf will be precise enough that it correctly targets the undesired behavior and is not a hamfisted one that takes away a good crutch to help players through the mid-game.

Effectively this is what the Real Problem is and this what produced the Symptoms known as Wukong....

Wukong is basically the Players Attempts at Fixing the Game for DE since they can't be bothered to do it them Selves... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

33 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

This order is what I don't like. Wukong's kit isn't all that powerful in a vacuum. What makes Wukong powerful is his ability to kill everything as well or better than a DPS ability with an AoE weapon, and to give that ability to his "turret."

Except he doesn't....

Even on my Smurf Account I've never Had Wukong get more Kills than Me....

You forget that Warframe has God Awful AI.... Celestial Twin Targets the Very first Thing he sees Rather than the Clusters of Red Markers on the Radar....

I'm sorry but All arguments regarding Wukong being Over Powered are just Flatout Let Lies....

Wukong is just a Lazy Pick....always Has Been and it's Why I never Use Him... And don't let me him... 

11 minutes ago, Giagantic said:

Yeah, anyone that thinks it is anything other then his clone doesn't have knowledge of past nerfs. Wukongs clone fits the nerfhammer of past frames due to their ability to quite literally play the game for you, namely Ember's World of Fire which was nerfed because people would just activate it and stand still, only moving occasionally in order to avoid being activity timer'd in affinity farm missions like Hydron. How will they nerf it? Probably add a duration to it and maybe cooldown timer, which would definitely hurt it. I hope they don't touch Cloudwalker personally as I like the ability and in compensation hope they make his 4 more usable and less wonky.

And yet nobody Asks why People go so Far out of their Way to NOT play Warframe 🤔....

[PsiWarp]

About time. Though do hope to see the Twin still shine as a semi-ranged distraction.

Maybe the Wuclone cycles between primary, secondary, and melee after each kill, with Primal Fury only swapping its melee weapon with the Iron Staff.

Or the Wuclone starts with melee/Iron Staff during Primal Fury, but brings out the primary when Wukong's HP dips below a percentage.

[Tyreaus]

59 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

For Wukong, it wouldn't surpise me if his usage is so far above everyone else because his twin essentially doubles the usage rate he'd normally have.

I believe the spectre is listed / ID'd as "Celestial Twin", as that's what pops up when you hover over the twin. Something like Eqinox's Duality might cause that issue because they're both listed as "Equinox". Likewise, weapons used carry the same IDs whether wielded by a spectre or the player.

Or, in essence, it seems like the twin is separate to Wukong, and while double-dipping on usage might occur elsewhere, that they're not sharing the same name should mean their stats are separated.

(Also there's a certain sense behind weapon usage being counted on spectres. Sure, the player isn't using it, but the weapon is still being used, and the measure is how much the weapon gets used, not in what contexts or ways. Same with Wisp. Of course, I would say it's better to take context and use into consideration too, but if that's not relevant to the question your data wants to answer, there's no point tracking it.)

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

As for whether Wukong needs a nerf, I personally don't think he needs anything big

Also I tend to agree with this. But I also caution against the idea that he's overpowered - or really any conclusive statements. The usage rate indicates there's an anomaly between the player and the game. The game makes a particular demand of the player, the player prefers that demand, and item x meets that demand readily. There's three parts to that relationship: demand, preference, and fulfilment. Nerfing Wukong can adjust the lattermost, and that may fix the anomaly, but there's two other parts contributing to the relationship that are, at minimum, equally viable targets.

So if we were to nerf Wukong, I would do so looking at it from an independent design perspective. Don't think of it like, "oh, he's so popular, he needs a nerf". Abandon the whole usage rate topic altogether. Rather, "what parts of his kit aren't well-designed?" To that, I see Celestial Twin being quite auto-pilot-y, similar to Ember's old World on Fire that effectively plays the game for the player. That's not fitting with design intentions. I also see Cloud Walker doing a bit too much for an ability - Titania's 4 is the closest analogue I can think of and she can't bypass Spy lasers. So that may mean adjusting Celestial Twin in some way to make it more player-involved, like making it use ranged weapons only when given a target, and perhaps separating the laser bypass and invisibility to Cloud Walker's augment, which does fit what Enveloping Cloud does. (Albeit I'd rename it to Stratosphere. Cause high cloud yus.) Also, his 4 needs a touch-up like many Exalted Weapons: it's sitting sub-par.

Would that fix the usage anomaly? Maybe, maybe not. But that's not really the point, nor should it be. The point is polishing his design so that it feels fair compared to other Warframes and fits the design vision, i.e. making sure it doesn't play the game for the player. If the usage anomaly is still around despite that polish, then we ought to be looking at the other two factors I mentioned above: demand and preference. It's erroneous to apply further nerfs after that point, because you're just making it incapable of meeting the preferred demand. It's a destructive way of fixing the problem.

[Marvelous_A]

1 hour ago, Numerikuu said:

100% the clone, with his Cloudwalker being second. Mainly the clone though.

Saw this day coming the moment they dropped his rework. His 1 was broken from the get go and I'm surprised they okayed it. If anything, I really hope this means his 4 will be made better. Make his 4 better and have his clone only able to use that. Boom. Problem solved.

Yes it's even more ridiculous considering Umbra just got the AI nerf not long before Wukong rework.

 

They fixed an AFK and make an even more powerful and braindead AFK warframe.

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

only... no swear words now, tell the truth.... what about all the people who like wukong? or is the opinion worth less than toilet paper?

It's worth less than toilet paper.

Stats and anecdotes assert that Wukong is a problem so DE will likely make the clone onerous to use. The most wukong fans can hope for is the first nerf not being too deep but having the desired effect to dissuade bad actors from continuing to use it.
The trend over the years would suggest that if the first nerf doesn't work then the alternative will be another, even deeper, nerf and then an eventual nuke if that doesn't fix the issue either.

The issue being Wukong usage at this point.

Is that indicative of the actual issue? Not really— But nerfing Wukong will curb the behavior being complained about for a bit.

[DrBorris]

On 2022-08-04 at 10:33 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

Ammo mutation exists ,

Your recommendations are dead on arrival.

Edit: Forget what I said. I may have been a bit too quick to post and didn't cool off after being aggravated by something. I don't want to pretend I never said anything so the former post is in the spoiler.

Spoiler

Ah yes. You are so smart. I can't believe you found such a clear nail in the coffin of this idea, there is no way around this that any mortal could come up with.

 

The OP shouldn't have to edit in obvious qualifiers to such a short post. If you can't give someone's idea any benefit of the doubt then you are at best a troll and at worst grossly ignorant to anyone's idea that isn't yours.

 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

3 hours ago, FulfillMyWill said:

That's why you should never share "hidden gem" builds (if you discover one) with anyone. With higher usage comes higher chance of that gear being nerfed.

Meanwhile the people running Titania thermal sunder while Wukong gets all the hate.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

3 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

So in what way re they considering wukong OP?

because I'm sure there's different aspects depending on the Tenno

 

I've heard some people use him for the Clone Ammo Bypass with Bramma/Ogris

some use him for the Cloudwalk to speed run

some use him for the Passive 3 Free Deaths

 

which aspect is pablo considering the offending area?

 

TBH I hope its the Bramma part they nerf. Since this is the one area I don't exploit with my Wukong.... (yeah I know, I'm a wierdo for not using AoE)

 

 

P.S. if its the cloudwalk/healing the choose to nerf. pretty sure all the Wukong users will just swap to Wisp.

I actually like Wukong but I also don't exploit AoE on him.