It's time to nerf Wukong

[ZPaul]

[EinheriarJudith]

Just now, quxier said:

It's easier to nerf one frame instead of "buff" 10-20.

only im not asking to buff 10-20 frames. there is still work that needs to be done on frames. nerfing based on popularity is foolish. there is proper work that needs to be done.

[Xaero]

18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

He's been super popular for 3 years though, so why now?

He likely had at least some competitors for the top used spot before. Probably among cc frames which became a lot less popular since Eximus rework.

[quxier]

3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

only im not asking to buff 10-20 frames. there is still work that needs to be done on frames. nerfing based on popularity is foolish. there is proper work that needs to be done.

Without Nerfing Wukong you had to work on low-tier frames.

3 minutes ago, Xaero said:

He likely had at least some competitors for the top used spot before. Probably among cc frames which became a lot less popular since Eximus rework.

According to Pablo popularity of those frames hasn't changed a lot. I wonder if they have stats based on levels. I would assume on lower levels CC frames might be stronger than on high level missions.

[Tiltskillet]

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

I wonder if they have stats based on levels.

I bet they do.  The closest thing they've shared with us are the MR usage heatmaps.  But level would be better in many ways, or a Steel Path versus Everything Else comparison.

[Tyreaus]

23 minutes ago, quxier said:

I wonder what they are going to do with Xaku's GoL & Yareli's Aquablades (weaker and other limitations but still AFK style without augment).

Strictly speaking in terms of "AFK ability", they don't have to, because both are duration - not drain - abilities. The timer management still requires some input beyond walking in order to keep them going. That keeps them from falling into, pun intended, the "fire and forget" category that old World on Fire enjoys. (Grasp of Lohk also tends to want a smidge of setup consideration too, no? Actually getting the ability on a decent group of enemies to power it up - that helps contribute too.)

One that is also affected is Equinox's Maim. It's rare because it only works in, like...3 nodes on Earth, but it follows the same line as World on Fire and, technically speaking, probably should be addressed too. It's likely left alone because, well...next to nobody uses Maim that way. It's not strong enough to be a lasting problem. But that doesn't mean it doesn't do the same sort of thing.

Practically speaking, and in line with discussions of "what changed with Wukong?", those abilities also have stricter range and line-of-sight requirements that reintroduce player input. Moving around in a Defense mission with those abilities isn't just to stave off an AFK timer, but to acquire targets. It's more involved than running in a circle. This happens with Celestial Twin using a rifle and is why it wasn't really a major problem in the past. Now that terrain-bypassing AoE has come more to the forefront, the movement aspect has turned more into halting the AFK trigger. That's toeing the no-no territory.

Good news is that not a lot needs to change to fix that aspect. Slap a duration on Celestial Twin and line-of-sight on AoE weapons and...well, you're pretty much done. It covers both bases above. And that makes sense: Wukong in the past, despite his kit, wasn't really a problem. It's only now that big-name AoE has taken more of a hold that scales have shifted past a critical point. But that's not really a huge change, so we shouldn't expect getting back to the other side of the line to need a change either.

Of course, one may want to tweak Wukong for other reasons, from flattening usage curves to introducing more player involvement beyond the bare minimum. One may also want to consider mission emphases that make Wukong so desirable in the first place. But for meeting general standards set elsewhere, all you really need is duration and LoS.

[BiancaRoughfin]

7 hours ago, Doomyo89 said:

Dont pls make wukong unplayadle

People were saying the same back when DE fixed Chroma`s Vex Armor formula, hes still a power house, only the spoiled deemed unplayable.

I doubt he will be Unplayable, he will just not be as OP as he currently is.

7 hours ago, Doomyo89 said:

i have been maining wukong 3 years now

Sucks to be you then. I main Zephyr  since she came out in 2014, got fed up of people calling her useless because she couldnt nuke, her Rework took years to finally come and made her even more versatile, despite that she still has flaws, still requires player engagement and know how to be played, yet i still dont see other Zephyr`s in missions aside Hydron.

8 hours ago, Doomyo89 said:

people who are complaining arent gonna play wukong so why DE would listen them?

People who dont play wukong dont do it because the frame completely removes any aspect of challenge and requires minimal to no player impute to play.

3 hours ago, Doomyo89 said:

so they are trying to force players to change playstyles? What? i have my own playstyle how i want to play my game why DE would care if i want to use wukong? i like it and it looks cool 

Because they made a whole game with obstacles and enemies for you to face, yet Wukong mains just fart their way through the whole map to extraction and completely ignoring everything on the way. Hopefully the Nerf fixes this.

You can still Walk right?

[quxier]

34 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Strictly speaking in terms of "AFK ability", they don't have to, because both are duration - not drain - abilities. The timer management still requires some input beyond walking in order to keep them going. That keeps them from falling into, pun intended, the "fire and forget" category that old World on Fire enjoys. (Grasp of Lohk also tends to want a smidge of setup consideration too, no? Actually getting the ability on a decent group of enemies to power it up - that helps contribute too.)

I've been running Yareli and I just need to press few keys every minute or something. I've been spamming viral/heat with my Kuva Nukor.

Xaku on other hand with simple P.Continuity you need to press 4 every ~40 seconds. You don't need "decent group" (according to wiki just level matters).

56 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Good news is that not a lot needs to change to fix that aspect. Slap a duration on Celestial Twin and line-of-sight on AoE weapons and...well, you're pretty much done. It covers both bases above. And that makes sense: Wukong in the past, despite his kit, wasn't really a problem. It's only now that big-name AoE has taken more of a hold that scales have shifted past a critical point. But that's not really a huge change, so we shouldn't expect getting back to the other side of the line to need a change either.

Slapping duration is not way to make things balanced but just boring. I hate pressing buttons just "because".

[Yamazuki]

3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Could you clarify what you mean about Wisp being a Warframe with 1 skill "and the rest comes from" Helminth?

Probably the usual she's a mote bot...sure her 4th ability is definitely on the 'meh' side, but that just means you don't have to put thought into what to replace. The rest of her kit is strong, but often ignored.

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

I've been running Yareli and I just need to press few keys every minute or something. I've been spamming viral/heat with my Kuva Nukor.

Xaku on other hand with simple P.Continuity you need to press 4 every ~40 seconds. You don't need "decent group" (according to wiki just level matters).

Slapping duration is not way to make things balanced but just boring. I hate pressing buttons just "because".

Yeah, true. It's really just a minimum bar; like I said, one may want to add more changes for a variety of reasons.

[Lutesque]

12 hours ago, Kaggelos said:

Joking (but not inaccurate) commentary aside, the (usage) stats indicate otherwise. Wukong is an outlier, as it is a frame that encourages, among many things, AFKing, braindead spy vault bypassing, and AOE spam among others.

And yet DE does nothing about the Outliers on the other End of The Spectrum....

Call me crazy but if DE doesn't want to buff the least Used Warframe's then they Shouldn't Touch the Most used Either....

12 hours ago, Kaggelos said:

Personally, braindead gameplay should be utterly extinguished, whining and resulting consequences be damned. 

That's a Fault of the Game Modes... Not Wukong in Particular....

12 hours ago, Kaggelos said:

In other games, when difficulty presents its self, you just suck it up and deal with it.

Period.

In other Games Difficult is Actually Difficulty.... In Warframe it's just increased Grind and Tedium....

But I'm basing that off the Other Games I've played.... I don't know what games you have been Playing to Formulate such a Grim Outlook torwards Difficulty 🧐....

 

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Yeah, true. It's really just a minimum bar; like I said, one may want to add more changes for a variety of reasons.

I don't mean changing into duration based and/or reducing duration is good way (bare minimum) of doing such nerfs.

[makaloff95]

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I'm not just suggesting nerfs, I'm suggesting rebalances, some give and take: The upper limits of performance of ST weapons are too high and needs to be rebalanced so DE can rid this game of that terrible damage attenuation band-aid, but along with that, the way players can get to those upper limits of performance would be less cumbersome and less stifling. At the same time, players would have more viable options available in dealing with armoured units.

No more having to get stacks via kills and continue using that weapon to get kills, lest you lose a lot of that damage and have to rebuild the stacks. No more extreme penalties in damage, because you decided to switch weapons to kill enemies in another way, or because you couldn't kill enough enemies in the right way to keep your stacks up. Those mechanics are pretty bad for the type of free flow gameplay Warframe can and should offer.

If, after the rebalances, DE takes notice of certain ST weapons, specifically some of the non-sniper semi-automatic weapons, underperforming, they can address that and they would have to address the overperformance of certain Incarnon skill trees, because the balance there is abysmal.

This coddling of players and wanting to allow them to make almost anything work in "hard mode" without much need for other tools, is not free and there is a trade-off, a price to be paid: To allow for this, it sacrifices depth for variety and devalues players' progression and improvement during their journey to lategame/endgame. It continues to devalue progression and improvement moving forward as well: "Oh, you farmed the newest lategame weapon? That's nice. It isn't going to really kill enemies any faster than that mid tier weapon you farmed years ago, because a one-shot is one-shot, but at least you see a higher overkill number!". Ridiculous.

This is a progression style game. When balanced, lower tier weapons are going to have lesser performance in higher tier missions and the beginner weapons are going to fall off - if they don't, higher tier weapons have little practical value, since a lot of their damage is either nerfed via damage attenuation, or lost to overkill.

ah i see, i must misunderstood your previous comment then. Its a fair point for sure, as long as things gets properly balanced over the board, i think what you proposed might work.

[makaloff95]

10 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Probably the usual she's a mote bot...sure her 4th ability is definitely on the 'meh' side, but that just means you don't have to put thought into what to replace. The rest of her kit is strong, but often ignored.

i must be a enigma then, i pretty much use her whole toolkit (aside from her 4th which i changed to khoras cage)

[(PSN)aarott]

On 2022-08-08 at 10:01 PM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I'm thinking I'll run:

Mirage with Kuva Bramma

Saryn with Toxic Lash

or Wisp

I think they're all good alternatives to Wukong for low-effort mode

Think DE will nerf one of them next after we shift?

It’s funny how people are like “well if Wukong gets nerfed, they’ll just move onto [1 of several other warframes], or [another warframe], or [another warframe].”

And they say it like some kind of bad thing, as though I wouldn’t want to see three distinct warframes instead of three wukongs every time I pub up for a sortie or event.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (PSN)aarott:

It’s funny how people are like “well if Wukong gets nerfed, they’ll just move onto [1 of several other warframes], or [another warframe], or [another warframe].”

And they say it like some kind of bad thing, as though I wouldn’t want to see three distinct warframes instead of three wukongs every time I pub up for a sortie or event.

I don't even know how you do it. I have NEVER seen 3 wukongs in game for years.
only with sorties do I sometimes experience that someone is switched to wukong when it comes to rescue.

here wukong is pretended to be superman, shoots lasers out of his eyes, every strange weapon like lenz mutates into atomic bomb if it attracts his clone, and kills all enemies in all 100 rooms instantly.

[(PSN)aarott]

'aight, you got me. I don't actually see 3 wukongs EVERY time I pub up.

It's usually just 2. 

[(PSN)aarott]

20 hours ago, Doomyo89 said:

people who are complaining arent gonna play wukong so why DE would listen them? 

What if I told you that DE is among the people complaining about wukong over-representation?

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

2 hours ago, (PSN)aarott said:

It’s funny how people are like “well if Wukong gets nerfed, they’ll just move onto [1 of several other warframes], or [another warframe], or [another warframe].”

And they say it like some kind of bad thing, as though I wouldn’t want to see three distinct warframes instead of three wukongs every time I pub up for a sortie or event.

the point I'm alluding to

is: which one will get nerfed next? when does it stop?

players will always find a new meta

[Traumtulpe]

14 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

People were saying the same back when DE fixed Chroma`s Vex Armor formula, hes still a power house, only the spoiled deemed unplayable.

Chroma is goddamn terrible, and I say this as somebody with 2 Umba Forma in him.

His fire breath is useless. His 4 is a gimmick that costs too much energy for what little it does, apart from doubling Profit Taker credits.

So what he really has is health, armor, and weapon buffing. Health and armor are useless in high level scenarios, you'll die in one hit regardless. And his weapon buffing has 0 effect against enemies with special DR. I have posted a thread in the past with proof where I dealt the EXACT same damage with and without ~1000% Vex Armor against acolytes. And against enemies without special DR you don't need buffs to oneshot them - not unless you are at a very high level, but Chroma can't survive there relying on health and armor.

And on "fixing" Vex Armor; It's bugged to apply multiplicative to glaive heavy attacks, you can get some real stupid numbers out of it. Probably never gonna get fixed.

Also, the weapon Arcanes provide lots of base damage, severely diminishing the effect of Vex Armor.

[Traumtulpe]

Make Celestial Twin work like Mirage's Hall Of Mirrors. Except only one copy, and less see-through. Still a very good ability, but with 0 AFK application. And if it keeps using your melee as you shoot (and vice-versa), it's still unique enough. I wouldn't mind if it used the same weapon either though.

And if you're feeling generous you could take a look at his exalted staff - it's worse than a normal melee weapon, which already aren't in a great spot after all the nerfs. Or just don't bother, people are currently fixing your mess with the Helminth system, I guess that's fine as well.

[Doomyo89]

15 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

People were saying the same back when DE fixed Chroma`s Vex Armor formula, hes still a power house, only the spoiled deemed unplayable.

I doubt he will be Unplayable, he will just not be as OP as he currently is.

Sucks to be you then. I main Zephyr  since she came out in 2014, got fed up of people calling her useless because she couldnt nuke, her Rework took years to finally come and made her even more versatile, despite that she still has flaws, still requires player engagement and know how to be played, yet i still dont see other Zephyr`s in missions aside Hydron.

People who dont play wukong dont do it because the frame completely removes any aspect of challenge and requires minimal to no player impute to play.

Because they made a whole game with obstacles and enemies for you to face, yet Wukong mains just fart their way through the whole map to extraction and completely ignoring everything on the way. Hopefully the Nerf fixes this.

You can still Walk right?

reason i do play wukong because i dont do builds its easy to me and calm and chill gameplay what i like to play warframe as, builds are just stress to me 

[Drachnyn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Traumtulpe:

Make Celestial Twin work like Mirage's Hall Of Mirrors. Except only one copy, and less see-through. Still a very good ability, but with 0 AFK application. And if it keeps using your melee as you shoot (and vice-versa), it's still unique enough. I wouldn't mind if it used the same weapon either though.

And if you're feeling generous you could take a look at his exalted staff - it's worse than a normal melee weapon, which already aren't in a great spot after all the nerfs. Or just don't bother, people are currently fixing your mess with the Helminth system, I guess that's fine as well.

I dont think letting people just fix wukong themselves with helminth as you put it is a viable option for DE as wukong is in their eyes a little bit too much used. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PSN)haphazardlynamed:

the point I'm alluding to

is: which one will get nerfed next? when does it stop?

players will always find a new meta

In theory it would stop when there is no frame leading in both acquisition and usage like wukong does now.

[BeardyKyle]

On 2022-08-08 at 5:08 PM, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

I doubt it as they have stressed an interest in a significant nerf to even out his usage.

Or in other words "make him less desirable to play"

I just don't see how they do that without making celestial twin and cloud walker useless abilities.

If this was as easy as twin only uses the iron staff.  It would already be done. 

I'm bothered by this.

I don't even use Wukong often and this nerf is bothering me. He's already not desirable for me to play lol. 

Curious though. Is the problem Celestial Twin being strong, or is the problem twin being able to use our heavily modded weapons?