Raids were very toxic, and should not be brought back even if the idea of them is popular

[DreisterDino]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb DebrisFlow:

Solo/pubs are not your only option. I often build a tridolon group with the "H chilled run" specification. I just say to the participants that they can bring whatever they want. "LF chilled run" works too. You can apply the same logic to trials and specifically look for pre-made groups with no elitist attitude, you just need to know how to search for them.

 

My experience

the reality

 

My last Tridolon was when a Nightwave task was around. went to recruit chat - 4 people, 2 of them noobs, the third guy and me vets who didnt do Tridolon for a year or two.

If you didnt do at least 200 caps, nobody wants to play with you, you get filtered out before even starting.

 

The noobs wanted to learn about the best frame picks and we explained common choices, but in the end we didnt care what they pick because it doesnt really matter.

Oh boy the forced Meta! Elitists forcing other players to play a certain way, and there is only one way to do it anyway because of bad game design.

 

Only the other vet brought a Meta Frame, Trinity to be precise to make sure we dont fail, the others could pick what they like or own.

Elitist are insulting everyone who doesnt play as they wish, and if you dare to do something off-Meta you get kicked from the Squad.

 

Then we just started the Tridolon, explaining whats going on and chatting in the process.

There is no room for errors, if you dont know what you have to do you get insulted instantly.

 

Did i say we were chatting? Yup, i have no idea where they all have been from and what their main language was, but since its 2022 and the vast majority of people are able to communicate in basic english on the internet, we were able to communicate and have some fun conversations besides explaining the process.

Its impossible to communicate with other people. But in rare occasions when it happens, everybody is toxic and insulting each other, because didnt you know that this is the only way people will interact with each other as soon as they meet another human being? (at least thats what happens when i interact with other people)

 

It took us more or less the whole night-cycle to complete the Tridolon, and tbh it was kinda challenging not to fail the mission and not kill instead of capture the Eidolons.

Challenge? What are you talking about? Challenge doesnt exist in Warframe! What are you, a noob? Dont you know about the Meta or what?

 

It was a fun experience for everyone involved, i personally just happened to be in the mood of doing Eidolons again after a long time for fun and the NW-task was a good reason to do so and made sure i was able to find other players. It was a kinda relaxed environment although it got a bit stressful at times aswell obviously because we werent the best team. In the end though we were happy that we succeeded, said good bye and i logged out in a happy mood after a good experience.

Warframe isnt fun, nobody plays for fun. Its work and its a big grind. What do you mean you dont know which Arcanes dropped and how much Plat you earned if you would sell it on the market? That's what counts! You want to tell me you logged out happily without even knowing how much you earned and after spending like 50 minutes with totally toxic strangers in a forced co-op environment, with forced loadouts and forced communication? You have wasted your time and you know it. And even if all of this would be true, which obviously, it isnt, this is the total exception and stuff like this never happens.

 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb DebrisFlow:

Yet the Raid schoolbus existed, with the explicitly stated philosophy of being a "low pressure environment" to learn the basics. Newcomers have to learn somehow, the veteran community understood that and organized accordingly. And it will organize again in the same way with the new raids, because not all humans are toxic garbage.

Talking about exceptions...who are you trying to fool? You know people are toxic and stuff like this never happens...ok, well to be honest i learned Raids in a similiar environment which wasnt the Raid schoolbus. The clan/alliance i got into hosted Raids each evening, and each day they had at least one Raid just to explain the mechanics to Noobs. And there were always different vets who volunteered to take part in the "slow and tedious" Noob Raid although they could have gone with other vets to complete it much faster and make the grind more efficient. Some vets even prefered the Noob Raid because it was more relaxed. There has been an environment for every type of player. Ok, thats one alliance and the Raid schoolbus, so maybe a few thousands players who had that kind of experience. But i just joined a public group and it was toxic af, can't you see that this is the norm?

 

And why am i forced to play a Raid with other players to begin with? I should be able to do it Solo, just like i run my Clan alone. And of course there should be no good loot connected to Raids, because that would exclude people like me from getting it. I shouldnt miss out on anything just because i dont want to do something. As far as i know, the very definition of the term Raid in gaming is "an activity or type of mission for a group of players with higher difficulty and therefore really good/rare/desirable rewards". At least that's the case in basically all games which offer Raids, and its also what you read when you google about Raids in gaming. And thats exactly what i am looking forward to. No, the definition clearly is "activity either for one single person (me) or a group of toxic strangers solely for the purpose of insulting each other with no difficulty (because the concept of difficulty is a lie and doesnt exist) and no rewards (because that would be unfair)"

[SneakyErvin]

51 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Ehhh... I mean, Destiny isn't a Trinity game, and neither is Monster Hunter, and both definitely have bosses that either are explicitly 'raids' or clearly designed in the same vein. And both are lacking significant chunks of what you say as well. 'Raid' type content isn't exclusive to any one type of design. Rather, it's probably more accurate to describe it as just the most complex and deep incarnation of a given game's base gameplay, optionally with an additional gimmick or puzzle. Strict roles aren't required, and roles in general can be more 'suggested' (for example, Fatalis requires players to break the head. But players can go about doing that in a couple different ways which lean into each other, which means depending on build they are likely to drift into a couple more 'soft' roles throughout the fight).

I would say that it's more on the fact that Warframe lacks more baseline gameplay assumptions. For example, functionally unlimited ammo and extremely generous use of abilities that subtract pretty much all the gameplay. Mainly the nukes and CC spam. There's also the extreme variance in health, damage mitigation and damage values across the whole game - between enemy factions, between individual enemies within factions, between players and enemies, between players and between weapons. All the above frankly makes standard enemy design near-impossible, let alone a complex raid boss.

Well we are now in territory where we arent really talking raids anymore. Yes MH and Destiny have bosses, but they do not have what can be considered neither raid bosses nor raids. I mean, we are talking small group content in those cases, even in D2 "raids" that are made up of an original "mmo group" + 1 extra member. So at that point we should really talk about if WF can make "dungeons" or not to begin with, because that is in essence what those games provide. And in that case, yes WF can make "dungeons" since we already have Eidolons and Profit Taker that would clock in as acceptable bosses, and we see it in Kela and some other normal boss fights aswell. But that does not mean DE can create raids with proper raid bosses, since they involve so much more since they need to support what makes a raid an actual raid. Which tends to be a task designed for a set number of players that validates that required number of players by throwing encounters at them that actually engages the whole group and requires them to do their specific job. And no, standing on plates that are there simply to increase the needed number of players is not enough, since it doesnt actually increase the challenge or test you.

WF just lacks baseline mechanics and that is why I fall back on saying it cannot be done properly without a trinity concept. They cannot implement proper tanking since we lack both tanks and aggo, so doing fights that require even the most simple things like leading a boss the correct way throughout a fight or make it face certain directions during specific segments of the fight wont be possible. Ontop of that we dont have proper block or parry design, with break values and so on that can lead to further group synergy depth between healers and tanks, like building for soaking or avoidance versus certain attacks. And with the first problem of lacking tanking and aggro, we also lack engaging dps, or the option to have both proper and faulty dps. No chance to add back multipliers that can be utilized with a good tank and so on, or backside weakpoint which likely would be more fitting in WF's action based gameplay. And some of this also comes down to completely turdy and irratic A.I. Something we can see with Necramech mobs. Even if you manage to "tank" them with certain abilities, they will still pace around like a nervous person, twitching their weakpoints in all freakin' directions.

WF has a massive uphill battle if we wanna see raids that are worth even the slightest. It isnt enough to slap something into the game and call it a raid if it isnt one.

 

[DebrisFlow]

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

3 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Community needs (still, imo) to embrace the concept of failure as the natural part of any game. You fail a raid? You try again tomorrow.

This is the thing, Warframe is very punishing in failure where you lose everything on mission failure and there are things being very rare to get like despair/hate which nobody knows when it will drop again so I prefer to minimize the chance to fail

As for trying again tomorrow, you see it as part of the game, I see it as wasted time for nothing

Failure chance vs reward rarity is a matter of balance and sensibility (fairness) from the developers. Loosing a despair/hate drop surely sucks, but it's currently framed in a system with incredibly low fail chance and that allows for infinite repeatability, so i call it fair balance. A fair system with high failure chance (like a hypothetical raid) would ideally be balanced around a lower reward rarity to accomodate for the time lost in failures. Will the new raids be fair? Who knows ("fair" and "ideally" are just words, i know), but i would not ditch them a priori on this matter.

As for "wasted time", sorry but that's a concept i don't agree with. You never waste time while gaming (unless, of course, you are procratinating on your real job, like i'm doing right now). In failure you learn from your own mistakes and become better for the next time. If it was not your fault but of a team mate, you learn to put your experience at service with more efficient support, communication, teaching. The experience that you gain is not "nothing". And if you fail despite doing every possible right thing in your power you still have spent time playing a game, which is the main intrinsic value and reason we play a game. Focusing all your attention on the extrinsic end-of-mission reward, while ignoring the rest, is simply bad faith.

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

4 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Exactly like in real life, multiplayer gaming is also about having the patience and perseverance to find the right people, which are out there, knowing the right tools (recruit chat, discord, etc).

And Warframe doesn't have to be that, it can be its own kind of a game where you can escape real life and it's still there after 8 years. If game that isn't similar in real life isn't accepted, Warframe wouldn't stay as it is for 8 years

We all play games to escape real life, i agree on that, but wherever you have a multiplayer component you just need to accept the implications of human interactions. As real humans are on the other side of the microphone, the "real life" part that is the nature of social interactions is unavoidable.

If by "its own kind of a game" you mean a single player experience with the option for multiplaying, well, just don't play raids. They will be a very small fraction of warframe content and all the rest of the game at your taste will stay there. If you fear that some rewards may be locked behind raids and you really can't stand the idea of farming them there, you have all the rights to complain until they are all tradeable, and i would personally support this feedback despite not needing it. 

 

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

As for trying again tomorrow, you see it as part of the game, I see it as wasted time for nothing

You don't even "try again tomorrow", you "try again right away". Did you actually do the old raids? You could run them as much as you liked as long as someone had a key, which anyone could craft ahead of time and stockpile. The "once a day" thing was only for the rewards.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well we are now in territory where we arent really talking raids anymore. Yes MH and Destiny have bosses, but they do not have what can be considered neither raid bosses nor raids. I mean, we are talking small group content in those cases, even in D2 "raids" that are made up of an original "mmo group" + 1 extra member. So at that point we should really talk about if WF can make "dungeons" or not to begin with, because that is in essence what those games provide. And in that case, yes WF can make "dungeons" since we already have Eidolons and Profit Taker that would clock in as acceptable bosses, and we see it in Kela and some other normal boss fights aswell. But that does not mean DE can create raids with proper raid bosses, since they involve so much more since they need to support what makes a raid an actual raid. Which tends to be a task designed for a set number of players that validates that required number of players by throwing encounters at them that actually engages the whole group and requires them to do their specific job. And no, standing on plates that are there simply to increase the needed number of players is not enough, since it doesnt actually increase the challenge or test you.

 

I mean at this point it's purely semantics. Both Destiny and Monster Hunter and, yes, Warframe have content that has been identified as 'Raid' content, either using that word or a proxy, by the definition of 'Content that requires end-game gear and high-level mechanical execution and requires co-ordination in some capacity'. Yours appears to be different and we're not going to be able to really progress this debate whilst we're operating on different definitions. You note group size as being a factor, akin to WoW's 50 player raids. FF14 only requires 8 players to be a raid, however. And, respectfully, I'd say that my definition is at least the more broadly accepted term these days, given that few people question that Destiny and other action RPG's of its ilk had raids. After all, the terms are flexible.

To demonstrate, you talk about 'dungeon' content. But the oldest accepted definition of 'dungeon' content encompasses anything either of us would consider 'raid' content, and most likely both would be frankly pretty bad, since dungeon, as a gaming term, predates the concept of a raid, and is merely the term for any setting for a 'dungeon crawl' in DnD,  any discretely-defined locale filled with monsters, traps and in some cases puzzles, be that a cave, the lair of a dragon or indeed the dungeons of a castle. And notably, by wikipedia's definition: "A dungeon crawl is a type of scenario in fantasy role-playing games in which heroes navigate a labyrinth environment (a "dungeon"), battling various monsters, avoiding traps, solving puzzles, and looting any treasure they may find", Warframe is almost entirely set in dungeons. Obviously, the definition for what counts as a 'dungeon' is flexible. Similarly, the definition of a Raid is flexible. I would argue that a more rigid definition that relies on very specific mechanics only serves to make the conversation more difficult

With that in mind...

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

WF just lacks baseline mechanics and that is why I fall back on saying it cannot be done properly without a trinity concept. They cannot implement proper tanking since we lack both tanks and aggo, so doing fights that require even the most simple things like leading a boss the correct way throughout a fight or make it face certain directions during specific segments of the fight wont be possible. Ontop of that we dont have proper block or parry design, with break values and so on that can lead to further group synergy depth between healers and tanks, like building for soaking or avoidance versus certain attacks. And with the first problem of lacking tanking and aggro, we also lack engaging dps, or the option to have both proper and faulty dps. No chance to add back multipliers that can be utilized with a good tank and so on, or backside weakpoint which likely would be more fitting in WF's action based gameplay. And some of this also comes down to completely turdy and irratic A.I. Something we can see with Necramech mobs. Even if you manage to "tank" them with certain abilities, they will still pace around like a nervous person, twitching their weakpoints in all freakin' directions.

With that in mind, I again disagree that blocking, parrying and aggro or any sort of incarnation of the trinity is needed. The Trinity is one tool, but it's not some axiom that must never be broken for there to be good, co-operative game design. But I do agree that Warframe lacks at least grace with many of its features that could be used to make raid-like content, including the problems with AI and weak points. Location-based weak points I think would be excellent, as would other positional mechanics. Warframe's a game with a lot of mobility, mechanics and environments that encourage and test mobility would be the best avenue to create raid content. One player holds one position which opens a weak point on a boss, or activates a weapon for another, or so forth.

[Voltage]

On 2022-03-06 at 11:24 PM, Pizzarugi said:

Do you really want to go back to when build-enabling things like Arcane Energize cost thousands of platinum to obtain, when the best you can do is grind for garbage that's worth low tens? Because I sure don't. It's bad enough a decent Riven already costs an arm and a leg if you're not willing to grind the tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of Kuva to try and make one yourself.

I put up with exceptionally rare, powerful equipment that costs exorbitant amounts of currency in Path of Exile to enable my builds. At least in PoE, I can do things that can provide an exceptional amount of currency for the time spent. In Warframe, you're lucky to find anything worth 100p or more these days, so you'd have to spend an ungodly amount of time saving up to buy whatever these raids will offer.

Why does the best gear (or anything remotely on the high end) need to be readily accessible? What's wrong with upper end equipment being earned in a manner such as Raid type content?

You're omitting that when Energize was thousands of Platinum, you actually had something that qualified as "endgame content" as the rewards were just that and the mode wasn't readily accessible to a new player. The dynamic the game has gone towards is why player retention has been declining and you see more people log in for TennoCon than actual updates. There's no reason to grind new updates or continue your gear when the status quo is for level 30 Fissures and pseudo-nerfed Steel Path/Liches through lazy powercreep like Galvanized Mods and +360% Base Damage on every Primary and Secondary.

[Zoh_Veldae]

On 2022-03-04 at 11:51 AM, Impulse_Nine said:

 

And the most depressing part in all this will be that, because this post was made, DE will most likely back out from reintroducing Raids again.

It's happened before and caused by less, so I won't put it beyond them.

Way to go, Impulse_Nine, you've helped keep the game down and ruined the hopes of people who wanted to enjoy raids.

I hope you're happy.

[Kaotyke]

6 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You don't even "try again tomorrow", you "try again right away". Did you actually do the old raids? You could run them as much as you liked as long as someone had a key, which anyone could craft ahead of time and stockpile. The "once a day" thing was only for the rewards.

The reason to run them multiple times was because of how common the Rare Containers were in those.

Also the Credits were sweet.

[0_The_F00l]

15 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Depend on what you see as "get challenged" because that only happen when you're not at Warframe level of nuking and turning the battlefied non-existent so does that mean nerfing everything to crap? So what makes Warframe unique compared to other games then?

You are so used to the game being "kill everything " that you fail to see there are ways to make a mission that requires no killing or being selective in your approach.

Spy is a good example , of something that already exists. Could be tweaked further to avoid cheesing.

Could also make a sort of reverse interception where you need to keep a number of enemies alive in a zone to gain points. But if too many enemies exist then the whole platform falls.

The main point of challenge is there should a reasonable and real potential for failure. 

In short , There can be mechanical approaches to challenge, not purely statistical where you put in meat sponges and you hose them with enough damage to make em drop.

And not everything needs to be unique , some things can be fun and still be generic.

15 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Also, what kind of raid being challenging? Because the last thing I like is calling out symbols or using mic to call outs (we know how some players have below standard rigs and internet) that becomes something near impossible to get if you're not a whole team with the same language (asia region usually have this with players having ***** instead of letters you can understand)

That's an issue with you mate , can't make everything be liked by everyone. Nobody is forcing you to enjoy it.

Having a substandard rig is also an exception, not the norm , which is really not an issue of raids but of the player themselves, if they can't meet the minimum specs they should not be playing the game (harsh but true) , same for the internet access.

And i did say that it's to be played with friends , i don't know about you but my friends speak at least one common language with acceptable fluency to understand each other. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

10 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

A fair system with high failure chance (like a hypothetical raid) would ideally be balanced around a lower reward rarity to accomodate for the time lost in failures.

I still don't see how it makes losing things more acceptable with lower reward rarity especially when you get nothing you've gained from failing the mission

10 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

As for "wasted time", sorry but that's a concept i don't agree with. You never waste time while gaming (unless, of course, you are procratinating on your real job, like i'm doing right now). In failure you learn from your own mistakes and become better for the next time. If it was not your fault but of a team mate, you learn to put your experience at service with more efficient support, communication, teaching. The experience that you gain is not "nothing". And if you fail despite doing every possible right thing in your power you still have spent time playing a game, which is the main intrinsic value and reason we play a game. Focusing all your attention on the extrinsic end-of-mission reward, while ignoring the rest, is simply bad faith.

Losing the extrinsic doesn't make the intrinsic reward enjoyable to me, sure you experience but still time spent for nothing but "experience" which I find pointless

10 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

We all play games to escape real life, i agree on that, but wherever you have a multiplayer component you just need to accept the implications of human interactions. As real humans are on the other side of the microphone, the "real life" part that is the nature of social interactions is unavoidable.

If by "its own kind of a game" you mean a single player experience with the option for multiplaying, well, just don't play raids. They will be a very small fraction of warframe content and all the rest of the game at your taste will stay there. If you fear that some rewards may be locked behind raids and you really can't stand the idea of farming them there, you have all the rights to complain until they are all tradeable, and i would personally support this feedback despite not needing it. 

I find raids that require human interactions mostly as fun as being dictated unless it's really the raid where it's more like assault mission where you strike an enemy base hard and fast. While you may still need human interaction, it's not as demanding as raids that "do this perfectly or screw you and your team" and efficiency means better result and more drops obtained

10 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You don't even "try again tomorrow", you "try again right away". Did you actually do the old raids? You could run them as much as you liked as long as someone had a key, which anyone could craft ahead of time and stockpile. The "once a day" thing was only for the rewards.

With keys being the gate where you need to make one or find someone with the key to try again, I don't find it any fun to find someone with a key first. If raid can be entered anytime you wish, then I don't really mind

10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

One player holds one position which opens a weak point on a boss, or activates a weapon for another, or so forth.

With our mobility? I doubt there will be a player that can stand in place just to open a weak point and why does that position exists in the first place? I don't see how making a position to open weak point as beneficial or make sense. If I was the one who made it, I would make it as much as possible that it has no weakness with only a voice reset and override command being safety net if it falls into enemy hands

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Spy is a good example , of something that already exists. Could be tweaked further to avoid cheesing.

Pretty sure I've seen that thread once

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Having a substandard rig is also an exception, not the norm , which is really not an issue of raids but of the player themselves, if they can't meet the minimum specs they should not be playing the game (harsh but true) , same for the internet access.

That's one reason why Warframe is being one of a kind, it allows anyone with subpar specs and internet access to play instead of kicking them out for not being able to afford things

[0_The_F00l]

8 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Pretty sure I've seen that thread once

Uhuh , ok. Just gonna ignore most of what I said with regards to mechanics and personal likes i see.

8 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

That's one reason why Warframe is being one of a kind, it allows anyone with subpar specs and internet access to play instead of kicking them out for not being able to afford things

You are confusing subpar with minimum specs. Playing with a subpar specs machine will lead to issues , most prominent in open world's where some players have reported instant crashes or unplayable frame rates. So the game already does have sections which are unplayable due to system limitations.

[TheArmchairThinker]

16 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Uhuh , ok. Just gonna ignore most of what I said with regards to mechanics and personal likes i see.

This is what I mean

An old thread of a fellow Tenno but it can work as high level mission

16 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You are confusing subpar with minimum specs. Playing with a subpar specs machine will lead to issues , most prominent in open world's where some players have reported instant crashes or unplayable frame rates. So the game already does have sections which are unplayable due to system limitations.

But still not completely unplayable compared to other games, and I guess this is still relevant

[PublikDomain]

30 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

With keys being the gate where you need to make one or find someone with the key to try again, I don't find it any fun to find someone with a key first. If raid can be entered anytime you wish, then I don't really mind

So you could have made your own keys and hosted your own games? And what about Void Keys/Relics which require an item before starting? This has always been a part of the game.

[(XBOX)FireX2K]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

So you could have made your own keys and hosted your own games? And what about Void Keys/Relics which require an item before starting? This has always been a part of the game.

Yes everyone can make their own raid keys and host their own raid parties. The BP was in the market and it took 6 hrs to build. It worked similar to tower keys where only 1 key was used for the entire party because that system didn't have an auto finder. It was also the reason that parties back then push as far as they can on tower missions that have endless runs. I recall specific tower keys dropped in specific  mission types, so you all knew what each other were farming when you joined.

 

I say the major issues most players have is gathering 7 competent players while also hoping their own connection won't crash trying to support the other 7.  I remember the high failure rate back in LoR was during the stage 2 puzzle part because who didn't bring their best defensive/survival frames kept resetting the puzzle when they were pulled off the switch or jumped off it from force of habit. 

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

This is what I mean

An old thread of a fellow Tenno but it can work as high level mission

Yes , something like that. More fail states not directly tied to kill count exclusively.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

But still not completely unplayable compared to other games, and I guess this is still relevant

Did you miss the part where the player crashes on going to an open world or in heavy particle encounters (personal experience).

This is totally an issue with the individual 

Not sure how  a "#*!% the poor" card got pulled up.

You really should avoid playing such games as it may damage your system or ruin your experience. If you still choose to do so then you accept you will have performance issues.

[Kontrollo]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)FireX2K said:

...

I say the major issues most players have is gathering 7 competent players while also hoping their own connection won't crash trying to support the other 7.  I remember the high failure rate back in LoR was during the stage 2 puzzle part because who didn't bring their best defensive/survival frames kept resetting the puzzle when they were pulled off the switch or jumped off it from force of habit. 

Just fyi: If hosting is seen as a major problem, they have already worked on and implemented the necessary tech for dedicated servers. They have been proven to work well for a long time already (2016). It's not going to be exactly the same if the next raids are going to happen in open worlds, but I'm sure it's something they could work out.

It was even considered for the old ones, see here:

On 2016-10-21 at 1:27 AM, [DE]Drew said:

Q: Do you plan on supporting other modes (Trials, Dojos, etc.)? 
A: By popular demand we are looking into this. 

Spoiler

 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I mean at this point it's purely semantics. Both Destiny and Monster Hunter and, yes, Warframe have content that has been identified as 'Raid' content, either using that word or a proxy, by the definition of 'Content that requires end-game gear and high-level mechanical execution and requires co-ordination in some capacity'. Yours appears to be different and we're not going to be able to really progress this debate whilst we're operating on different definitions. You note group size as being a factor, akin to WoW's 50 player raids. FF14 only requires 8 players to be a raid, however. And, respectfully, I'd say that my definition is at least the more broadly accepted term these days, given that few people question that Destiny and other action RPG's of its ilk had raids. After all, the terms are flexible.

To demonstrate, you talk about 'dungeon' content. But the oldest accepted definition of 'dungeon' content encompasses anything either of us would consider 'raid' content, and most likely both would be frankly pretty bad, since dungeon, as a gaming term, predates the concept of a raid, and is merely the term for any setting for a 'dungeon crawl' in DnD,  any discretely-defined locale filled with monsters, traps and in some cases puzzles, be that a cave, the lair of a dragon or indeed the dungeons of a castle. And notably, by wikipedia's definition: "A dungeon crawl is a type of scenario in fantasy role-playing games in which heroes navigate a labyrinth environment (a "dungeon"), battling various monsters, avoiding traps, solving puzzles, and looting any treasure they may find", Warframe is almost entirely set in dungeons. Obviously, the definition for what counts as a 'dungeon' is flexible. Similarly, the definition of a Raid is flexible. I would argue that a more rigid definition that relies on very specific mechanics only serves to make the conversation more difficult

With that in mind...

With that in mind, I again disagree that blocking, parrying and aggro or any sort of incarnation of the trinity is needed. The Trinity is one tool, but it's not some axiom that must never be broken for there to be good, co-operative game design. But I do agree that Warframe lacks at least grace with many of its features that could be used to make raid-like content, including the problems with AI and weak points. Location-based weak points I think would be excellent, as would other positional mechanics. Warframe's a game with a lot of mobility, mechanics and environments that encourage and test mobility would be the best avenue to create raid content. One player holds one position which opens a weak point on a boss, or activates a weapon for another, or so forth.

But that isnt the definition of raid, that is the definition of endgame. Otherwise raids is anything, so we already have them with arbitrations, eidolons, PT, steel path and so on. There is a reason why games that actually have raids differentiate them from normal dungeons or other endgame content. And no, the term isnt flexible, since when you start to water it down it means absolutely nothing. 

No dungeons do not encompass anything we'd consider raid content. A raid can take place in an aestethic dungeon, but it isnt a "dungeon" which is a synonym to the later introduced "instance" when games started to lock them off much like missions in WF on a more regular basis. At which point you went from dungeon and raid dungeon to instance and raid instance. It is like in DaoC, you didnt say you were going to the Vendel raid, no you went to the vendel cave or dungeon, however you did go to the Trollhalla raid and Darkness Falls raid, just as you did frontier raids in RvR. Nothing has really changed since then regarding the setup of what differentiates a raid boss or encounter from a dungeon boss or encounter.

Co-op game design is not the same as raid design though. They need to cater to different things if there is a reason for raids to exsist and the term to define something. 

I just wonder what kinda "raids" people have actually experienced that come up with these silly ideas of watering down "raid" to simply mean co-op. We already have all of that in the game, so in such a case why ask for "raid" if the content we already have is defined by your idea of what "raid" is. Go knock yourself out "raiding" Eidolons or PT.

[Loza03]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that isnt the definition of raid, that is the definition of endgame. Otherwise raids is anything, so we already have them with arbitrations, eidolons, PT, steel path and so on. There is a reason why games that actually have raids differentiate them from normal dungeons or other endgame content. 

That is a fair point, though my main counterpoint would be that, since the term 'raid' is, yes, entirely a flexible term, the terms are at least partially synonymous. I would argue that the predominate reason most game differentiate raids from other content is largely the difficulty. Though I would cede that adding the seperate instancing in such a situation would make the definition more accurate, since most raids rely heavily on such instancing.

But, fine, floor is yours. I've presented my definition and my reasoning for using it, but we still don't actually know what you think of as a 'Raid'.  We're clearly not all operating on the same definition, and yours is clearly quite defined, so let's hear it.

 

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No dungeons do not encompass anything we'd consider raid content. A raid can take place in an aestethic dungeon, but it isnt a "dungeon" which is a synonym to the later introduced "instance" when games started to lock them off much like missions in WF on a more regular basis. At which point you went from dungeon and raid dungeon to instance and raid instance. It is like in DaoC, you didnt say you were going to the Vendel raid, no you went to the vendel cave or dungeon, however you did go to the Trollhalla raid and Darkness Falls raid, just as you did frontier raids in RvR. Nothing has really changed since then regarding the setup of what differentiates a raid boss or encounter from a dungeon boss or encounter.

Bearing in mind that the term 'dungeon' as a gaming term originated purely from DnD, lets see what it has to say on the matter.

"In the D&D game, the word 'Dungeon' takes on a broader meaning to include any enclosed, monster infested location" - DnD fifth edition monster manual. 

Now, you are right in that it doesn't comprise anything considered raid content, but it does include the vast majority. It's also rather arbitrary. Yet this is the original (or rather, the most up-to-date account of the original) definition of the term within the gaming sphere, and it is still widely used. Again, I point towards the entire genre of 'dungeon crawler' as well as the wider Legend of Zelda series and it's derivatives, wherein the term dungeon is radically different.

What I am trying to say is that gaming terms, as opposed to technical terms such as instancing, are always entirely flexible. What matters is not the specific mechanics, but the 'Aesthetic of play' - that is to say, the feeling a set of mechanics is intended to evoke, and consider that different games in different genres would be able to evoke the same or similar feelings using different mechanics.

In so many words, the dungeons in Skyrim, World of Warcraft and the Legend of Zelda are all equally and unequivocally dungeons, and they all touch on the same fundamental aspect of 'delve into a dangerous place to uncover loot and glory' but they have key and important differences because the mechanics of each of these games is different. By that same token, therefore, a Raid, implemented outside of the traditional tab-targeted MMO setting would necessarily need to deviate from those mechanics, but could still absolutely be a raid.

 

In short.

The term 'Raid' is flexible.

[kgabor]

 

OP, fyi. they are called Trials.

They aren't even meant to be the WF equivalent of generic MMO raids, it's just what the community dubbed it because it was similar to those at the time.

[taiiat]

yeah, i guess the majority of the Playerbase is already toxic enough even though they'd never admit it :)

 

but really, content that does actually ask competence of the Player can be done fine. you just create content that encourages Players to become better rather than punishing them for not already being better.

5 minutes ago, kgabor said:

OP, fyi. they are called Trials.

the game can call them whatever it wants, but everyone will know what they really are, irregardless. 

[DeeDeeLyla]

On 2022-03-04 at 4:10 AM, DrBorris said:

A few toxic butts mean the good people don't get to have fun.

That's usually how real life works too, all it takes is a few people or even one person to ruin the experience for everyone, something-something "This is why we can't have nice things"

Now multiply that by the thousands (at the VERY least) and you'll see why it took DE this long to even consider adding raids back in any form, and no, that has very little to do with DE themselves

On 2022-03-04 at 4:59 AM, (PSN)Viveeeh said:

I don't like doing Tridolons, but you don't see me go around shouting about Tridolons should be removed from the game.

The thing about Tridolons is that when you have the right stuff, you can solo them

Then there are other missions (namely bounties) which scale in difficulty depending on how many are in the group

I feel like if they're gonna bring back raids, that is more or less the model they should follow

Raids were removed in the first place for a reason; I don't think they're going to come back in exactly that same state they were at the time of removal, or if they do, then expect a rework shortly afterward

[DreisterDino]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb DeeDeeLyla:

I don't think they're going to come back in exactly that same state they were at the time of removal, or if they do, then expect a rework shortly afterward

Yeah that wouldnt make any sense, like if they just come back exactly as they were, this 3 or 4 year absence woulndt even be justified since they could have added them back at any time if there are no changes (unless for some miracle they found a way to stop the bugs that came with each Update, which has also been the reason to remove them in the first place).

 

I personally hope for just something totally new. While i liked  doing the Raids with my Clanmates, the gameplay really wasnt that great besides a few fun stages in the Jordas Raid imo. Would be cool if Open Worlds become the location for Raids - the simple fact that these Maps are huge and have lots of cool locations like the caves which are still not really used for a lot to this day would make them the perfect choice if you ask me.

 

Edit: And i dont think its that far fetched that they might go there. I dont remember if it was just the community or DE themselves who mentioned Raids in combination with the 3rd Orb, but that could be something. What i still know for sure is that DE said about the first two Orbs that they should be like "Heists". This term could be seen as "Raid light" if you want to put it that way, at least in regards to the connotation these words create. (in my opinion they failed in this regard because people either farm a certain stage for a certain reward or just do the boss fight, but the simple fact that they wanted to create something like a "Heist" might be a hint that Orbs have been supposed to be some sort of a replacement or reiteration of Raids, at least in the concept stage)

[(PSN)Viveeeh]

1 hour ago, DeeDeeLyla said:

The thing about Tridolons is that when you have the right stuff, you can solo them

[...]

I feel like if they're gonna bring back raids, that is more or less the model they should follow

Oh don't misunderstand, I don't like Tridolons because, well, it's not really fun for me, not because of the players being toxic. I can solo Terry, but the hell wants all three, they're just a huge pain in my butt.

Anyway, I don't know much about raids in other games, but isn't it common that they're done by multiple players cooperating? I'm not sure if being able to solo them is good. 

We'll see how they'll want to deal with player toxicity, if it was a huge problem in the past, I'm sure they'll try to think of something. They definitely have some ideas about how the new raids will work, if they didn't, they probably wouldn't have asked if players wanted them back.

[----Legacy----]

On 2022-03-08 at 11:06 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Well yeah, but that is its own problem. It doesnt make toxic content less toxic or less of a problem.

It does. The mixture of self entitlement to have every single reward for no effort on top of the selfishness to not want certain content to be added, fixed, or maintained just because a small and loud group of people labeled it as "toxic" is just that group of people reflecting their own toxicity on others in an attempt to hide their own. Oddly enough, this "stop enjoying what i don't like" attitude is quite toxic, yet normalized in this community.

To top things off, "toxic content" is usually optional too, so you can simply not engage with it and save yourself a lot of stress, anything beyond that is -as mentioned above- a toxic mixture of pure selfishness and self-entitlement.

On 2022-03-08 at 11:06 AM, SneakyErvin said:

In reality WF needs a massive overhaul before raids will ever become something remotely interesting or worthwhile, unless people are happy and fine with puzzle quest, Nihil and Exploiter poop content. It will be fun to see the "soon" coming "improvements" to Eximus units. I have extremely low expectations though.

Yes, they could always plague everything with Orphix as an attempt to hide the elephant in the room, but without a huge balance overhaul involving player and enemy power (w/scaling), defines a power ceiling for warframes, reworks the whole damage system and rebalances rewards accordingly and revamps the modding system by adding some more limitations to it (a massive overhaul indeed) the elephant will still be there refusing to go anywhere.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Loza03 said:

That is a fair point, though my main counterpoint would be that, since the term 'raid' is, yes, entirely a flexible term, the terms are at least partially synonymous. I would argue that the predominate reason most game differentiate raids from other content is largely the difficulty. Though I would cede that adding the seperate instancing in such a situation would make the definition more accurate, since most raids rely heavily on such instancing.

But, fine, floor is yours. I've presented my definition and my reasoning for using it, but we still don't actually know what you think of as a 'Raid'.  We're clearly not all operating on the same definition, and yours is clearly quite defined, so let's hear it.

 

Bearing in mind that the term 'dungeon' as a gaming term originated purely from DnD, lets see what it has to say on the matter.

"In the D&D game, the word 'Dungeon' takes on a broader meaning to include any enclosed, monster infested location" - DnD fifth edition monster manual. 

Now, you are right in that it doesn't comprise anything considered raid content, but it does include the vast majority. It's also rather arbitrary. Yet this is the original (or rather, the most up-to-date account of the original) definition of the term within the gaming sphere, and it is still widely used. Again, I point towards the entire genre of 'dungeon crawler' as well as the wider Legend of Zelda series and it's derivatives, wherein the term dungeon is radically different.

What I am trying to say is that gaming terms, as opposed to technical terms such as instancing, are always entirely flexible. What matters is not the specific mechanics, but the 'Aesthetic of play' - that is to say, the feeling a set of mechanics is intended to evoke, and consider that different games in different genres would be able to evoke the same or similar feelings using different mechanics.

In so many words, the dungeons in Skyrim, World of Warcraft and the Legend of Zelda are all equally and unequivocally dungeons, and they all touch on the same fundamental aspect of 'delve into a dangerous place to uncover loot and glory' but they have key and important differences because the mechanics of each of these games is different. By that same token, therefore, a Raid, implemented outside of the traditional tab-targeted MMO setting would necessarily need to deviate from those mechanics, but could still absolutely be a raid.

 

In short.

The term 'Raid' is flexible.

 

16 hours ago, Loza03 said:

That is a fair point, though my main counterpoint would be that, since the term 'raid' is, yes, entirely a flexible term, the terms are at least partially synonymous. I would argue that the predominate reason most game differentiate raids from other content is largely the difficulty. Though I would cede that adding the seperate instancing in such a situation would make the definition more accurate, since most raids rely heavily on such instancing.

But, fine, floor is yours. I've presented my definition and my reasoning for using it, but we still don't actually know what you think of as a 'Raid'.  We're clearly not all operating on the same definition, and yours is clearly quite defined, so let's hear it.

 

Bearing in mind that the term 'dungeon' as a gaming term originated purely from DnD, lets see what it has to say on the matter.

"In the D&D game, the word 'Dungeon' takes on a broader meaning to include any enclosed, monster infested location" - DnD fifth edition monster manual. 

Now, you are right in that it doesn't comprise anything considered raid content, but it does include the vast majority. It's also rather arbitrary. Yet this is the original (or rather, the most up-to-date account of the original) definition of the term within the gaming sphere, and it is still widely used. Again, I point towards the entire genre of 'dungeon crawler' as well as the wider Legend of Zelda series and it's derivatives, wherein the term dungeon is radically different.

What I am trying to say is that gaming terms, as opposed to technical terms such as instancing, are always entirely flexible. What matters is not the specific mechanics, but the 'Aesthetic of play' - that is to say, the feeling a set of mechanics is intended to evoke, and consider that different games in different genres would be able to evoke the same or similar feelings using different mechanics.

In so many words, the dungeons in Skyrim, World of Warcraft and the Legend of Zelda are all equally and unequivocally dungeons, and they all touch on the same fundamental aspect of 'delve into a dangerous place to uncover loot and glory' but they have key and important differences because the mechanics of each of these games is different. By that same token, therefore, a Raid, implemented outside of the traditional tab-targeted MMO setting would necessarily need to deviate from those mechanics, but could still absolutely be a raid.

 

In short.

The term 'Raid' is flexible.

But now you are bringing pen and paper terms into the game, from one specific game within a genre that is extremely wide, while making it sound like D&D is the definition of it all, while it isnt. To add to that, PnP rpgs do not have raids either, they arent interactive, you dont have boss mechanics etc. Everything is decided by the GM, from the starting size of the campaign group to everything else.

You should in reality look at this from what type of game we are playing, which isnt a PnP rpg, or a solo player PC rpg or anything else like that. This is a co-op looter with strong ties to MMOs in the content concept. So Dungeon and Raid do have very distinct and different meanings, since the words describe two very different parts of a game the moment you hear them if you've ever played an MMORPG. Just as there is a very distict difference in what you connect to in your brain when you hear dungeon/raid or heroic dungeon/raid.

Please dont start watering down the terms that can actually be used to express what type of endgame people want, since "endgame" is already broken, r***d, butchered and left for dead behind the local inn. Soon everything will be so vague that no one will know what the heck the other party is talking about. And that doesnt help anyone.

Also, you seem to have very little experience with it all, since now all of a sudden you assume that we are talking about tab-target games as being required to create raids. But that isnt at all what is being said, what is being said is that trinity is nearly a must for wortwhile and engaging raids to exstis. Trinity =/= tab-target, since Trinity exsists in action based games aswell. And yes, everything can be a raid, but that doesnt mean it is good or worthwhile. Trials were effectively raids, since they included group+ size and had specific mechanics that required group+ size (or well atleast a minimum of players), but that doesnt make it worth having or good, or what people actually look for in a raid. It needs to go beyond the arbitrary mechanics that are simply there to push up the number of players needed.

There is just zero point to add something just to add something so you can call it something if you dont bring the things that makes that something something the special thing it is ment to be in the first place.

8 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

It does. The mixture of self entitlement to have every single reward for no effort on top of the selfishness to not want certain content to be added, fixed, or maintained just because a small and loud group of people labeled it as "toxic" is just that group of people reflecting their own toxicity on others in an attempt to hide their own. Oddly enough, this "stop enjoying what i don't like" attitude is quite toxic, yet normalized in this community.

To top things off, "toxic content" is usually optional too, so you can simply not engage with it and save yourself a lot of stress, anything beyond that is -as mentioned above- a toxic mixture of pure selfishness and self-entitlement.

Yes, they could always plague everything with Orphix as an attempt to hide the elephant in the room, but without a huge balance overhaul involving player and enemy power (w/scaling), defines a power ceiling for warframes, reworks the whole damage system and rebalances rewards accordingly and revamps the modding system by adding some more limitations to it (a massive overhaul indeed) the elephant will still be there refusing to go anywhere.

I dont see how that makes toxic content less toxic. It just means there are toxic players for other reasons aswell. And the more people that avoid the toxic content, the more it proves that the content is toxic, if the players leave due to the toxicity of others. And the loot tends to bring out the worst in people when those people rely on others to get it done. And I'm not saying we shouldnt have toxic content, just that it is indeed toxic. There are other reasons why I wouldnt want to see that content and it has nothing to do with Jimmy being toxic little bugger or not.

And very much agreed, and overhaul is the only thing that would work. Right now it feels more like trying to shove thing under the carpet, and currently there is an everest sized bump just growning.