The impact AoE nerf could have

[Tyreaus]

40 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Honestly we should be able to use the incarnon system on all weapons, the buffs may need a look over but making weapons "Void-Touched" and picking out 5 buffs for weapons would be awesome assuming they wouldnt be too broke. I'll also add that it probably shouldn't apply to kuva and tenet weapons.

I tend to agree, but I also think the Incarnon system is, perhaps, a bit too early. Generally, you want game progression to be smooth, and for enemy levels, it is. But with player weapons, we went from fairly typical stroll downtown in most of our arsenal with a few weapons that could dive into Steel Path with some friction to murderbeams in the Incarnon system that rip and tear through Steel Path enemies as if they were Starchart level. A couple steps got skipped there.

The power of the Incarnon weapons is kind of to the point that, at the rate of enemy progression, I don't see those weapons being replaced for years. I've fully invested in them and I don't think I'll live to see a point they're replaced, outside of AoE for sheer clear potential. My Trinity with Dispensary and a Laetum can take down Eidolon limbs with ease. That's a lot.

[PublikDomain]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

An issue to you, is fun for someone else. 

Cool, now apply that idea in reverse:

Quote

What's fun for you, is an issue for someone else.

Seem pretty obvious, no? It's kinda what this whole thread is about. So what's the ideal outcome for this situation? Is it to:

A) Continue to ignore these issues and let only one part of the playerbase have fun.
B) Address these issues so that every part of the playerbase can have fun.

I dunno about you, but I think that it's best if everyone can have fun.

52 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

DE had years to rework the entire game. I personally don't see it happening anytime soon, but I could be wrong. 

I mean, take a guess why this thread and all the others even exist right now? It's because DE's been recently talking about addressing things like AoE and Wukong and endgame. It's no longer a question of if, it's a question of how soon™ and to what degree.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

56 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I tend to agree, but I also think the Incarnon system is, perhaps, a bit too early. Generally, you want game progression to be smooth, and for enemy levels, it is. But with player weapons, we went from fairly typical stroll downtown in most of our arsenal with a few weapons that could dive into Steel Path with some friction to murderbeams in the Incarnon system that rip and tear through Steel Path enemies as if they were Starchart level. A couple steps got skipped there.

The power of the Incarnon weapons is kind of to the point that, at the rate of enemy progression, I don't see those weapons being replaced for years. I've fully invested in them and I don't think I'll live to see a point they're replaced, outside of AoE for sheer clear potential. My Trinity with Dispensary and a Laetum can take down Eidolon limbs with ease. That's a lot.

Ive given up on DE actually putting meaningful content behind high MRs or power levels to get. It would be nice though.

[KitMeHarder]

12 hours ago, Voltage said:

The entire comment was literally to point out a shift in attitude over the years.

I pointed that out too. Do you not see the lack of "adamancy" with Maiming Strike? For comparison, the AoE meta has only existed for 13 months.

13 hours ago, Voltage said:

I commented on how general content has been affected by this situation, and how you can get by with this little input nonsense

Again, I pointed out that as well. By "general content" do you mean something like a Neo fissure? When have we not been clearing those with as little input as possible?

And even if that's not what you meant, when have we not been easily soloing stuff?

[KitMeHarder]

14 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

They can be as long as they have fun systems, require some degree of mechanical skill, enforce resource management and quick decision making, but most important of it all, these need a power ceiling to balance around.

You've said some good things, but I disagree here. This is just a point of perspective. In the same way I'd guess you're not still regularly playing 'Shadows of the Colossus', I'd guess you've not exhausted its systems like you have Warframe. Case-in-point all the speedrunners of Shadows (or any game). (But I'd be curious of what your play time of each game is.) 

I really do think people conflate power creep with the massive experience and boredom that just comes with doing the same thing over and over again, regardless of how fun/challenging it started out as.

14 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The issue is that they end up killing it themselves to calm people who can't take or just don't want challenge in warframe, yet somehow feel (self)entitled to whatever rewards these may hold. SP is the best example of it since it was fun and engaging until DE added galvanized mods and weapon arcanes

"fun and engaging" Which is different from challenging, and I'm only pointing it out because you said it in your first sentence but (rightfully) didn't say it in your second. IMO the SP is still fun and engaging, and I go there when I feel the urge. But I just want to say, we still completely trivialized it before those additions. Glaive Prime, Khora, Baruuk, Gara, Blood Rush melee, Marked for Death, Xaku, even Mesa, etc... and a lot of those cleared just as fast as our now roided up guns.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

54 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Cool, now apply that idea in reverse:

Seem pretty obvious, no? It's kinda what this whole thread is about. So what's the ideal outcome for this situation? Is it to:

A) Continue to ignore these issues and let only one part of the playerbase have fun.
B) Address these issues so that every part of the playerbase can have fun.

I dunno about you, but I think that it's best if everyone can have fun.

I mean, take a guess why this thread and all the others even exist right now? It's because DE's been recently talking about addressing things like AoE and Wukong and endgame. It's no longer a question of if, it's a question of how soon™ and to what degree.

Every player isn't having fun in a pug. Slow/chill casual people can't hang with fast/efficient people. This is for every game.

This is why after Vors Prize you get an email that says "Find like-minded Tenno."

This community couldn't even decide what a raid/endgame should entail, if they got one. 

Now, with that said....I stopped using my Bramma and Tetra for quick fissures. I just sprint next to the low MRs and let them kill while using my Battacor. It's cool seeing who can bullet jump and who can't.

Sometimes a Gauss with a zarr takes all our kills....I can't control that guy. I'm just there for a Gold part so it doesn't matter to me. 

Should high MRs have more patience in pugs? Definitely. But a small handful of efficient players being nice and putting their AOE away for a 3 minute mission isn't something you can expect everyone to do. 

[KitMeHarder]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Warframe content is still, by a huge margin, the instanced mission content.

But for the years since DE have implemented many of the new power systems, they have done incredibly little with them.

Point is that the game has kept up, but I agree that DE has also not utilized it as often as they should (mainly in terms of evergreen content for vets).

But in the same way there's no reason for me to return to a place like Fortuna, I also have no need for more endo, credits, forma, etc... we're kind of running out of lasting rewards (and I don't want riven-like RNG based rewards).

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Every player isn't having fun in a pug.

... right, which is not a good thing. This is something that can and should be improved. No one should open this game and not have fun; having fun is the entire point of playing games in the first place. If a mechanic or set of mechanics is making it so players aren't having fun playing a game, then those mechanics should obviously be adjusted.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Sometimes a Gauss with a zarr takes all our kills....I can't control that guy. I'm just there for a Gold part so it doesn't matter to me. 

But a small handful of efficient players being nice and putting their AOE away for a 3 minute mission isn't something you can expect everyone to do. 

... right, which is the problem with this game's elective powercreep. You can't expect random players to be even remotely similar in capability, which means whoever is strongest gets to play the game and whoever is weakest gets to walk to extraction. This is also not a good thing. Maybe you don't mind having nothing to do, but some of us find that very much problematic.

[----Legacy----]

5 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

You've said some good things, but I disagree here. This is just a point of perspective. In the same way I'd guess you're not still regularly playing 'Shadows of the Colossus', I'd guess you've not exhausted its systems like you have Warframe. Case-in-point all the speedrunners of Shadows (or any game). (But I'd be curious of what your play time of each game is.)

You guessed wrong, even though i've been playing Shadows of the Colossus since 2005 i keep going back to it since it has my favorite boss fights, which i may know almost perfectly yet still manages to stay challenging. Even more when it comes to its time attack mode where i keep finding ways to do each boss even faster. Can't check my playtime on the game since i've had it on about 5 different memory cards and my PS2 recently started having some issues so i'm thinking of using an emulator or something to start it again in my computer.

5 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I really do think people conflate power creep with the massive experience and boredom that just comes with doing the same thing over and over again, regardless of how fun/challenging it started out as.

No, skill and experience have nothing to do with powercreep. The first two mean that the games becomes easier naturally as the player learns about its mechanics, while powercreep is more about the game becoming easier and easier simply because the player's gear becomes more and more powerful regardless of player skill and experience.

Granted, it's expected for low level areas to become dull after stepping out of them and getting better gear (progression), but the issue comes when we keep becoming more and more powerful without stronger enemies to challenge said power while also making us use our knowledge and skills to a deeper extent than on previous levels to succeed.

I think the biggest example of this is how most players in warframe just sprint and run (or use mobility powers) to get around; some people even complain about some frames being "too slow" (or use sprint speed mods) even though all of them have access to the same parkour which requires more player input than movement abilities, but is also way tighter in exchange. This gets even worse since there's no need of moving to survive when we can reach 100% damage reduction and no need to aim when in most of the content we can just shoot at the enemies' general direction (or simply use a nuke power) to remove all enemies before they even get to be a threat (out of endurance SP runs, where we can still kill level cap enemies but things get a bit more chaotic there)

5 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

"fun and engaging" Which is different from challenging, and I'm only pointing it out because you said it in your first sentence but (rightfully) didn't say it in your second. IMO the SP is still fun and engaging, and I go there when I feel the urge. But I just want to say, we still completely trivialized it before those additions. Glaive Prime, Khora, Baruuk, Gara, Blood Rush melee, Marked for Death, Xaku, even Mesa, etc... and a lot of those cleared just as fast as our now roided up guns.

That was on purpose, i'm aware that "fun and engaging" is different from "challenging". With that out of the way, my main grief with DE on this one is how they initially added SP advertising it as a "challenge mode", then just killed the challenge aspect from it by giving more power to players (twice so far) which in the end reduced the need to engage with the game's mechanic to defeat the mode.

And yes, perhaps my biggest issue with powercreep -especially in warframe- is how instead of being made in stuff that requires player knowledge, skill and engagement to be  useful, it's instead something that allows players to do more and more by playing less and less over time.

[-EPECb-]

В 15.08.2022 в 00:18, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 сказал:

Next, stop saying DE doesn't or rarely listens.

Listening to outside advice is one thing. Understanding the consequences of applying these tips is quite another. If they listened, then it turns out that not to those, and in game now there is such a mess with the balance because of this. In any case, this is very thoughtless on the part of DE and now they say that they will fix everything what they did because they "listened"... all this could have been avoided if only DE would just think more carefully about what they add to their project. Many still on the start of the Bramma was sure what DE are doing something wrong (I was the same thought). They made concessions, nerf this bow, but this was not enough. Then Wukog shows up and they make the same mistake, but instead of fixing it, they ignore it this time. These were obvious things, but why didn't DE notice this right away? 

It would be better if they listened more often to those who point out errors in their beta-test. Now, in addition to many bugs, there are also problems with the balance. DE are apparently masochists if they make such miscalculations so easily. This proves once again that they are not playing in their game.

В 15.08.2022 в 00:18, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 сказал:

Because I ignore any video discussing meta or even most how-to vids, my six year experience with Warframe does not match 90% of what you say are problems that need fixing. 

...if you are a solo player then your words are correct.

В 15.08.2022 в 00:18, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 сказал:

Finally...

...yet again:

"It's exactly the same in Warframe now. The "difficulty" that I'm talking about is not to increase the damage and armor of the mobs, but to correctly set the balance in which the players will be a little more dependent on each other's help.

With the complexity that DE has gotten into the game now, many players are getting to 999lvl on endless missions (although I just refuse to understand why they do it). In other words, this is some kind of stupidity, not complexity. I see no interest in standing for hours for nothing. It's really stupid."

There is no interest in interaction between players in a cooperative game other than to increase the number of mobs to farm with full party or the chance to shorten the mission quickly when joining a host. It's all! And fat 999lvl mobs are not able to add any interest to the gameplay... these are obvious things man.

[Graavarg]

11 hours ago, Lutesque said:

That's basically what I said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nah, not really. If that were the case I wouldn't have commented (of course). But it doesn't matter, it's not all that important.

[Lutesque]

29 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Nah, not really. If that were the case I wouldn't have commented (of course). But it doesn't matter, it's not all that important.

If it wasn't Important... You wouldn't have Commented (Ofcourse) 😝... So yeah.... Pretty much what I said...

[BatVenomPL]

And most of that will not matter at all in places where you want to deal with hordes of enemies (aka almost the whole game, with some exceptions) instead of single targets

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Nah, you wont get Mesa become even more op, when they tone down AoE.

  How to fix AoE meta, reduce ammo, 5+- shots and leave rest to rng for ammo drops or ammo support. Ammo efficiency mods shouldnt work, But then again we need to understand AoE isnt the problem. Problem is specific 3 AoE weapons. So AoE persay doesnt need nerf, rather than those 3 need some tuning. 

IF they nerf AoE, and its not viable, then many other aoe weps become nothing than mastery fodder. I recall they want to encourage variety, but so far it often ended up supporting specific meta, and kill off alternative options.

[TeaHands]

Nope, still wrong. I know what exactly needs to be done to fix this meta. 

 

But I'm not saying it until one of you guess it right.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb AntifreezeUnder0:

Nah, you wont get Mesa become even more op, when they tone down AoE.

  How to fix AoE meta, reduce ammo, 5+- shots and leave rest to rng for ammo drops or ammo support. Ammo efficiency mods shouldnt work, But then again we need to understand AoE isnt the problem. Problem is specific 3 AoE weapons. So AoE persay doesnt need nerf, rather than those 3 need some tuning. 

IF they nerf AoE, and its not viable, then many other aoe weps become nothing than mastery fodder. I recall they want to encourage variety, but so far it often ended up supporting specific meta, and kill off alternative options.

I want to see this op mesa. bubbles, eximus, line of sight and and and...
and as you switch back and forth, saryn does aoe damage in 3-5 rooms.

and there is only one aoe weapon with top performance. 2 are ok. rest either has major disadvantages or does extremely little damage like lenz.

and meta tarbuleta omgeta is in other games. I couldn't find any here...

[ChaoticEdge]

to come think about it, what I realized the veteran or average player should of ask the new player do they want fast paste or take slow paste jog beside them as we just use our non-explosive weapons and let the new players have fun shooting as we just chill then again the dev is going try to nerf 1 way or another again so still try nullified nerf to be a buff.

[(PSN)Silver1593]

Just buff 👍,  dont nerf 🔥

[BiancaRoughfin]

1 hour ago, (PSN)icecell6 said:

So first all secondary weapon including exalteds have 100% cc, next secondary weapon will provide energy per damage delt (this can be gained even through channeled abilities), now all secondaries including exalteds now have a pax arcane slot and a regular arcane slot for merciless, alright so next all duel wilded secondary weapons have 25% increased fire rate, and crit damage which stacks, and they can also be modded separately, again including exalteds.

 Made this Gif last year for a Topic asking for Mesa`s Regulators be buffed, suited this topic too.

The proposed idea is just so outrageous i have no actual word to describe it. It wont fix anything, it will only spring another set of huge problems.

[p_silveira]

Or just... nerf the AoE weapons? 

People will overreact as always, every community does it on nerfs, but in the end no one is going to die from it, and people used to spam AoE will just find new ways to play same as always.

[Silligoose]

On 2022-08-15 at 1:17 AM, (PSN)ApoX95 said:

this is such a perfect metaphor. it really is like that. 

I don't even think that it's necessary to completely overhaul the system so this 'power fantasy' completely vanishes from the game - I still sometimes enjoy to just take my OP Proboscis Cernos, Kuva Nukor and just any op 'self-playing' frame to play it save when I run fissures or farm some other stuff but what would 'fix' this whole topic imo would be a true endgame. something which they probably tried with Steel Path - like a complete new star chart. but not just a 'here's an identical star chart but +100 level and more enemy spawns/armor etc' but like a true new 'star chart'.

maybe a new planet with only narmer enemies or a sentient star chart. more tactical gameplay (and maybe power creep even being necessary - but instead of nuking each room, using your OP equipment will make you feel like you're in the beginning of your warframe journey again). maybe more focus on stealth, more focus on hitting specific points - I don't know. but something where your end gear is required but the game becomes very different. 

raids usually seem to be an endgame thing and they also usually play different. more tactical gameplay is required and teamwork. having a different kind of gameplay doesn't have to be bad. first, duviri seemed to be like this but apparently this will happen much earlier than people think and new war won't be required - hence, maybe it's cool and different, tactical gameplay but seemingly endgame items/mods/etc won't be required so that's not the answer either.

I really love this game and it's literally the only game I ever played for such a long time. I'm not even sure if all the pokemon I played in my childhood combined would reach the hours I have in Warframe today. but it's definitely not as satisfying as it was several years ago. sure I feel powerful now, but I still run the very same missions. that is why I really enjoyed this metaphor. Xaku is a great example - it's basically a mobile auto-mesa. sure it's fun sometimes to just run through everything and everything is dying without much effort at all. but if it's basically all you can do then it just doesn't feel that rewarding grinding my way all the way up to the MR30s. I still like it sometimes and that's why I will keep starting this game, sometimes everyday for a short time, maybe sometimes even several hours a day to grind something really efficient - but I would still love if this would've unlocked a 'new world' somehow in which I don't feel like a demi-god anymore. a world, in which I truly feel like a space ninja again. maybe stealth wouldn't even be necessarily required if running with a squad in true RPG fashion where you combine your whole team in which you CAN have a very similar experience to the known power creep, but just with a really good buffing/healing combo of a team and when you run solo you need to be 'space-ninja-y'. but at least some form of true endgame. and I'm well aware that this is far form an easy feat for this game in which there is probably at least 1-2 frames to cheese everything.

stalker is immune to warframe abilities, too though and he's a true relic in this game. I don't think having similar mechanics in endgame content needs to be bad. there's a lot of different things the endgame could have and I bet this weekly veilbreaker thing will go straight into the right direction, hopefully. but there are definitely ways to keep the classic Warframe feeling without nerfing everything to the ground and still add something new and challenging. I'm also well aware that people complain too much as soon as something requires basic thought or tactics but maybe that's why that stuff should be lowkey 'locked' to endgame players so at least the quantity of people who probably could complain would be much less.

it's probably scary to develop a free to play game and feeling forced to listen to every person who pushes themselves in the first row shouting 'Me, Me, Me!' and they need to listen to them because they need as much people playing as possible. but Warframe already is a genius and giiaaant game in it of itself, toooons of stuff to do - just perfecting the New Player Experience would be enough at first for sure. Warframe is complicated and feeling required to use the Wiki is one big issue for sure. making everything as clear as daylight would be a good start to keep the flow of new players constant, because as previously said: there already IS endless content. this game obviously is addicting in some way or another, otherwise there wouldn't be so many of us who have literally thousands of hours over several years. 

but games also need a challenge. otherwise people would play one of those idle one-click mobile games which warframe literally can become if you use the 'fitting build'. the goal surely wasn't to go from 'tactical space ninja RPG' to 'idle game'.

the idle can stay though so people have no need to complain. but just adding something that doesn't ALLOW you to go 'idle game' would be nice. or at least as previously mentioned, being required to tactically have a squad well planned and organized that would allow you to go 'close-to-idle-game' at most in this potential endgame content.

definitely still thrilled for the future! and I can't wait for Veilbreaker and Duviri x)

Thanks I appreciate the compliment.

I 100% agree the system doesn't need an overhaul - the foundation that has been laid with various systems are, in my opinion, pretty damn fantastic.  DE simply didn't maintain balance within it and it certainly requires some tweaks, not only in terms of the balance of gear, but in terms of content provided for players at different power levels - they can't have lategame players running around farming gear against lvl 10 enemies and expect those players to be engaged by it.

I also agree in that I don't think there is a need to alienate the portion of the player base that enjoys popping into a game and likes to wreck everything without much effort. Games within multiple genre's have both that option for players, as well as the option to go and test their highest level gear and skills against worthy opponents, by way of different difficulty settings. Power fantasy isn't simply a setting in which players cannot be challenged, but rather a setting in which players feel powerful due to their improvement, the strategies, tactics, as well as their gear in progression-style games, and the correct execution thereof.

The biggest issue I have with the design behind things like the Stalker, Overguard, Wolf, is that DE presents a tough enemy, but takes away many rather foundational tools that can, and should, help deal with those enemies, thereby decreasing depth, pushing players to very specific strategies and tactics against arguably the most dangerous enemies in most missions, instead of presenting enemies that encourages the use of the various tools in conjunction with one another to a higher degree of execution. Games with proper balance says: "Here you go: Here are a lot of different tools you can use and here's an enemy that's really going to test your use of various tools being used together at the right times." Warframe says: "Here are a lot of different tools you can use and here's an enemy that is really going to test your use of those tools, except a giant portion of your toolbox is obsolete, because we didn't feel like balancing that part properly, so they won't have any effect.". DE isn't building upon the foundations and systems in the game and instead, they simply invalidate them - they are flat out decreasing depth. It's fine, in my opinion, for enemies to have either conditional immunity, as seen with something like Shield Lancer or Profit Taker, or full immunity against some mechanics that make sense, ie you can't inflict "Lift" on an extremely big unit, but DE goes overboard with some of the immunities they give.

Stalker has a pretty decent conditional immunity mechanic: Absorb. For a small amount of time, Stalker cannot be damaged and in turn, if players attempt to do so, they make the attack stronger. It grants a form of counter play. It isn't fantastic, but it is pretty good. In contrast, he just has straight up immune to Warframe abilities. That's... pretty bad.

I wish I could share your enthusiasm for  Duviri and Veilbreaker, but I'm mainly interested in frame play. I'm sure others are also excited for those updates and I am happy for them, but it isn't what hooked me on Warframe and to be honest, every time I see DE parade around some new non-frame content, while ignoring frame-gameplay imbalances, I'm a little disappointed.

I don't know to what degree DE feels they need to listen to players tbh. Some of the things they release seem like they put the minimum effort into it, knowing full well it won't be received well because it is poorly balanced or lacking from what it should have been and at times it feels like they are just putting something out there to for a cash grab in an unfinished state, tweak it a bit, although not nearly enough, and then moving on.

The New Player Experience could use some love. What gets me, is Pablo mentioning DE apparently hired teams to try and make the mod-system and related UI more transparent and easier to understand and somehow these teams failed. Seriously? Hired teams couldn't figure out that saying "+165% damage" on Serration and "+30% damage" on a Bane mod, despite the two mechanics working very differently, is going to be confusing? They couldn't figure out the mod UI needs to show the type of effect mods have and why? At least it is nice to know DE has money to burn on inept 3rd parties.

DE just needs to get some people on their team that can balance the game properly, balance upper levels of power available, balance content accordingly for that level of power, while building on mechanics instead of invalidating for the most part, and the game would become more tactical and strategical at higher levels of play. I don't know if they want to.

[trst]

Oh cool, yet another "damage will fix non-AOE weapons" post.

I'd still love for anyone to explain how dealing overkill damage to a single unit is somehow on par with killing/damaging half the enemies in a room. And how that could be remotely helpful anywhere outside of extreme SP endurance runs.

[Yamazuki]

Equipping a weapon within the top 20 usage rates now flags the player as an enemy with a cap of 5 damage dealt to Tenno.

Am I doing this fix the thing with brilliant ideas correctly?

[AbyssalSerpent]

1 hour ago, BatVenomPL said:

And most of that will not matter at all in places where you want to deal with hordes of enemies (aka almost the whole game, with some exceptions) instead of single targets

This, but people always seem to think that nerfing, rather than tending to the core issue is always the #1 solution.

[ant99999]

5 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Equipping a weapon within the top 20 usage rates now flags the player as an enemy with a cap of 5 damage dealt to Tenno.

Am I doing this fix the thing with brilliant ideas correctly?

Equipping Wukong in combination with any AoE weapon now places a bounty on your head issued by the opposing faction desperatly trying to prevent the mass genocide of their ranks. This enables friendly fire.

Killing a Wukong user will now reward you based on their performance, with rewards scaling from Argon Crystals to Umbra Formas and even pre-rolled Riven Mods.

That will teach them, am I right?