AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Mr_MR5]

11 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

not even a top aoe weapon with riven like kuva zarr can save a warframe with low armor on sp against ranged.
such warframes die here after 3-5 seconds. and with single target???? lol... no need to even try.

thats one way to look at it and it does happen this way sometimes, i've watched it happen

i once watched a player (MR26 gloom banshee) get downed within seconds of the enemy showing up, revive themselves and happily spam their riven'd kuva zarr for the next hour and a bit without getting downed a second time,

 and single target weapons???????? 

i've done a few long-ish solo SP survivals (no more than a couple of hours each time) using volt and a rivenless sniper rifle without getting downed, so it can be done

i also unlocked around 95-98% of the steel path solo with single target weapons,

why?

1) steelpath was empty

2) if a player joined my squad they would leave asap

(might have something to do with mastery rank as some players did rudely mention it before aborting) jokes on them though because i unlocked the node without them anyway

3)sniper rifles are more powerful than most players think

4) steel path just isn't difficult

having all the good gear with no idea will always be second behind to having a good idea with very little gear

 

 

[(XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon]

14 hours ago, colazen said:

Headshots with a gamepad are torturous to me🤧

True  

No aim assist for controller

Even HEADs are tiny or hidden no matter what headshot buffs are. 

We are not Genburton or Nicewigg.

Pablo's DE leads us the way to what we can't do.

Plus, his Primed Sure Footed nerf plan will kill epitaph, too, which is a part of melee play.

Pablo's plan excludes console tennos, it's obvious.

 

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

Just wondering how DE will treat weapon ammo pools that have both single target and AOE alt fire modes? I know DE is lowering the ammo pools for AOE weapons;  so was wondering what the community thinks DE will do for these specific types of weapons. 

[Numerikuu]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

It's silly to me that of all the changes we're getting in this update people laser focus the one thing they don't like.  I get that's generally how people behave but still.  You need to look at the summary of all the changes as a single total package.  The devs have basically made armor much less effective.  This boosts a lot of frames viability in much more difficult content.  Having more frames be viable in that content means you have new things to use against enemies to make them easier to deal with.  Then you combine that with the insanity that is the headshot buff and weapon swap speed and you're now putting out a LOT more damage.  All this to mean the player should be at the same level if not stronger at mobbing in hard content compared to currently.

You just won't be able to point and click a hallway as much anymore.  Oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

B-but... headshots require aiming!!... 🤢 🤮

I kid lol, but for real, I was not expecting a headshot multiplier increase. You could practically hear all the Harrow mains (and people who prefer single target weapons in general) squee at that moment.

[Sammonoske]

Asking the devs to self-harm the QoL of their own game. 🤣

For once I am glad they didn't listen.

[Lakais]

I don't know any of those weapons being used heavily right now. Usually the balancing this those is that they take a LARGE chunk of the magazine so it kind of evens out, I guess. Like Ambassador, you get a whopping 2 AoE shots with a full magazine of 84 or something. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Pretty sure they didn’t say anything about reducing AOE ammo pools.

well more accurately I don’t think they said anything about it being implemented.

[SneakyErvin]

Not really sure what there is to do. It kinda solves itself due to how they work. Zarr has a low ammo pool overall, so no real problem, Tenet Tetra and weapons like Ambassador consume a massive chunk or the whole magazine per shot, resulting in a massive ammo capacity turning into just a few shots if the AoE is used constantly. Tenet Tetra has enough ammo for uhm 8 AoE shots iirc.

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Good idea on both but I'd still hold back from full negation. Rhino aside, I think it's healthier overall to have some sort of pausing reaction to the blasts. DE had Tue right idea with the stagger system and shouldn't allow a direct blast to be ignored. I doesn't look nor feel right to me. 

I think complete negation is fine, seeing as cautious shot is a 10 rank rare mod that takes up 1 mod slot on your weapon, which could've been used for something else (ammo mutation?) 

it's a fine trade off in my opinion. 

[cute_moth.npc]

Pre-withdrawal symptoms from players who have crutched on literally one gameplay option for so long that they have forgotten to try using other highly effective options such as grouping, nuking, chain firing weapons, melee, crowd control, strategy, group play, wide beam weapons, glaives and many more may include excessive hyperbole, oversimplification, feelings of anxiety and a loss of appetite for destruction.

Treatment options include a specialized withdrawal recovery program where Tenno suffering from Zarr dependency syndrome can spend their therapy sessions learning how to explore the game's wide range of skills and equipment that the afflicted can use to overcome their fears and conquer their foes! 

If you or a loved one know of someone suffering from dependency, please call and get the help they deserve.

 

[Skoomaseller]

15 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Did they talk about how they made a game where enemies range in the hundreds on every mission?

Did they talk about how each of those hundred enemies can all deal enough damage to kill you unless you have the absurd DR that most of the Frames have (You know how insane it is that every DR in the game is 90%?!)

Did they talk about how killing enemies is the only way to move forward, with certain missions failing you if you DON'T kill fast enough?

Did they talk about how enemies, when not grouped up, are all spread out in every direction under the sun and the only weapon that can go through walls by base is AoE with single target weapons needing an expensive Mod Slot to have a gimped version of it?

No, they didn't. They talked about automation, and how needing to use AoE feels like the only/correct way to do things but did not delve into Why people want Automation and why people think it's the right way.

Like the Dev stream was still better than last time, the dumb 'CC is the problem' while AoE still reigned supreme due to Overguard. But they didn't talk jack about the actual issues about why people use AoE so much.

people calling you insane but you're right lmao. but I can appreciate at least the "new" team actually talking in depth about the changes instead of looking like soulless zombies on the couch

[kinoko_takenoko]

If you can finish a mission by killing 30 enemies in a single mission that includes a  battle, you may not need an AoE.
However, in the current situation, it is common to kill more than 100 enemies in a mission that includes combat.
And if you give them time to attack, their shields will be destroyed in a short time and their health will run out a few seconds later. It's kill fast or be killed fast.

There is no talk of adjusting enemies or missions in the next update, so the need for AoE will remain.

CC? will be ruined by Overguard scattered by Eximus and Ancient Healer.
It is wiser to kill them all at once than to let them survive and act as an obstacle.
How can we rely on means that are useless only when we need them?

[Tiltskillet]

38 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

I know DE is lowering the ammo pools for AOE weapons

Did they say this?  I'm honestly confused by the ammo changes, and the practical effect they'll have on AoE use, so maybe I missed it.

I'm clear they're consolidating ammo into primary and secondary.   And reducing the ammo drops by half but doubling the amount they contain.  So more peaks and valleys which will be felt by low ammo reserve weapons more than others.

Except that most primary AoE are currently dependent on sniper ammo packs which only drop 6.5% of the time.   Consolidating these into primary mean they'll drop 50% of the time.   Without getting into the math...big net increase in the amount of ammo available to launchers.   I'm missing a critical piece here. 

Pablo did allude to ammo mutation changes, but didn't give specifics.  I'm sure that's part of it.  There also the "ammo pickup" stat that was shown on the Arsenal for the new speargun, but wasn't explained.  Currently sniper ammo packs refill 10 rounds, but the Afentis, with an ammo reserve of 12, only had a value of 4 there. My guess is that big AoE launchers will have a particularly low value there as well.

If that's the direction they're going, cool.  But I'm inferring a lot, so maybe this is completely off. The approach would closely parallel suggestions I and others have made before about consolidating ammo types and using pickups to throttle weapon use  (/brag) so maybe I'm just reading what I want to read into it.

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, R4bbit0le said:

Field of view can be adjusted

That actually doesn't solve the issue. The camera's position relative to the warframe means that you'll often see the latter obstructing (or at the very least getting extremely close to doing so) the centre of the screen no matter what your FOV is set to.

For example, this is what happens when you aim down sights while crouch walking with a rifle (note that I turned my FOV up to max for this). Without even using the bulkier cosmetics, the frame's elbow is almost covering the reticule. Using certain shoulder armours with certain frames (particularly Chroma and Atlas) can result in it being completely covered just by aiming. Again, FOV does nothing for this because it doesn't alter the camera's lateral placement, just how far it's zoomed back from the frame.

Spoiler

 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Except that most primary AoE are currently dependent on sniper ammo packs which only drop 6.5% of the time.   Consolidating these into primary mean they'll drop 50% of the time.   Without getting into the math...big net increase in the amount of ammo available to launchers.   I'm missing a critical piece here. 

Weapons will have a “Ammo Pickup” stat now, listed in the arsenal, along with the ammo maximum (can we have beam range in arsenal too now pls)
Value there is how much ammo you get per pack assumably.

Burston Prime had an ammo pickup stat of 80, the new speargun had a pickup stat of 4, likely since it’s an AoE weapon (granted small AoE of 3m)

[Dunkelheit]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Uan91:

I use kuva zarr mostly in defense to make the mode enjoyable.

Without it the mode Is way too slow.

 

Speed Nova makes it go very fast

[SenorClipClop]

Weapons that fit this description that I can think of (Corinth, Ambassador) use more ammo to fire their AoE.

 

[Tiltskillet]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Burston Prime had an ammo pickup stat of 80, the new speargun had a pickup stat of 4, likely since it’s an AoE weapon (granted small AoE of 2m)

Ah, cool.  I didn't see the Burston stat.  So this is starting to make more sense.  But currently rifles get 60 per pick up.   Maybe this stat is before the x2 adjustment in amount per drop?  It's not easy for me to reconcile the numbers unless they're going to vary with ammo reserve or other parameters.   Or they're placeholders.  Or Pablo was fudging.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Did they say this?  I'm honestly confused by the ammo changes, and the practical effect they'll have on AoE use, so maybe I missed it.

Okay, so it's not precisely that they're lowering the ammo pools, it's a little more nuanced than that.

First thing they're doing is making there only be two types of Ammo; Primary and Secondary (and Heavy, but that's not important). These two will now restore more base Ammo, double what they usually do, for any weapon that can pick them up, however they will drop less often.

What this means is that weapons like the Bramma, which only have a tiny ammo pool will more often run out if you just fire them mindlessly at everything. And that the specific method of giving one to Wukong's Clone will now run you out of ammo almost immediately due to how often they just fire at the nearest enemy.

In addition, some AoE weapons, like the Bramma, already only gain 1 ammo per pickup. So this method can also be used to gate them even further, even if the player uses Ammo Mutation.

So it's more like 'setting up the environment to be a bit unfriendly to the AoE weapon ammo economy'.

[_LotusPrime_]

3 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

I say that all the time too!
because I want to try something new and realize very quickly that the enemies are doing too much damage. and low armor warframe is almost instant dead.

and it's not about something like mag or gyre... even harrow prime constantly died on sp in void/lua etc mission after 3-5 seconds. and he had kuva zar with usable heat proc and max range. nothing worked here without 3 maxed umbra.

of course I can be calm now. because i've been mr32 for a while and i've been playing since 2013. so i have more than enough opportunities to play high content very comfortably.

but it's primarily about new players and my friends. I mostly only play in pubs. and new players have great difficulty even with normal eximus...
and in my opinion the devs will dig another grave and frustrate a lot of players. because i'm sorry to meet good people and see that they haven't logged in for 2-3 months...

the thing is  , squishy frames used to kinda do SP with some cc abilities which also gave them shield gate reset but with overguard changes now its pretty much narrowed down to who has i-frames , invis or 3 times 90% DR and nothing between cuz as you know even inaros with adaptation kinda gets one shot by 500 lvl nullfier sniper (which i tested) 

so it was like okay-ish before but they gimped it for some reason and the eximus have some wack skills 

its like we ask for balance but all we get is either over the top easy or borderline unplayable for more than half of the frames 

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb kinoko_takenoko:

If you can finish a mission by killing 30 enemies in a single mission that includes a  battle, you may not need an AoE.
However, in the current situation, it is common to kill more than 100 enemies in a mission that includes combat.
And if you give them time to attack, their shields will be destroyed in a short time and their health will run out a few seconds later. It's kill fast or be killed fast.

There is no talk of adjusting enemies or missions in the next update, so the need for AoE will remain.

CC? will be ruined by Overguard scattered by Eximus and Ancient Healer.
It is wiser to kill them all at once than to let them survive and act as an obstacle.
How can we rely on means that are useless only when we need them?

it also depends on the enemies and their lvl... and warframe too.
i have very few warframes that are even playable with single target in sp void missions...

my support volt died 2 times in a sp capture alert. should I install defy there or what? I can very well dodge or whatever.
or i got gas dot in a sp alert against infested. I'm dying and my 850 health is gone quickly if I don't use vaz dash quickly.

in both cases not even kuva zarr helps.
what kind of balance is that? it's not serious.

[_LotusPrime_]

oh and i forgot to mention , not all frames can ' abuse ' shield gating since some animations take very long time even with natural talent
 

[Famecans]

On 2022-08-26 at 6:34 PM, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

Surprised sure footed didn't get a nerf but they said it's in the pocket incase it's needed

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Ah, cool.  I didn't see the Burston stat.  So this is starting to make more sense.  But currently rifles get 60 per pick up.   Maybe this stat is before the x2 adjustment in amount per drop?  It's not easy for me to reconcile the numbers unless they're going to vary with ammo reserve or other parameters.   Or they're placeholders.  Or Pablo was fudging.

Like me try to simplify based on my own assumptions,

Currently:
 

Chance to drop ammo from any enemy:

Source	Pickup
	Rifle Ammo	Pistol Ammo	Shotgun Ammo	Sniper Ammo	Heavy Ammo
Heavy Unit (e.g. Heavy Gunners, Corpus Techs, Ancient Disruptors)	24.41%	24.41%	9.70%	6.47%	5.01%
Normal/Light Unit (e.g. Lancers, Crewmen, Chargers)	26.29%	26.29%	10.45%	6.97%	0%

Rifle drops gave 60 ammo ,

Pistol gave 20,

Shotgun & Sniper gave 10 ,

Ignoring Heavy for now,

the chance to drop either Rifle/Shotgun / Sniper was 40% , a 14% average

The chance to drop pistol was 24 %

Now , based on my assumption,

We will have something like the following table

Source	Pickup
	Primary Ammo	Secondary Ammo	Heavy Ammo
Heavy Unit (e.g. Heavy Gunners, Corpus Techs, Ancient Disruptors)	14.00%	14.00%	5.00%
Normal/Light Unit (e.g. Lancers, Crewmen, Chargers)	15.00%	15.00%	0%

 

Roughly more than half of the current average for secondary and nearly average for primary

But the amount picked up will be dynamic , subject to a weapon stat. Every weapon will have a different stat , which will probably be a function of ammo pool , magazine , damage done etc. or be completely arbitrary , i dont know.

 

So in short:

chance to drop = fixed,

What you actually pick up = variable.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb _LotusPrime_:

the thing is  , squishy frames used to kinda do SP with some cc abilities which also gave them shield gate reset but with overguard changes now its pretty much narrowed down to who has i-frames , invis or 3 times 90% DR and nothing between cuz as you know even inaros with adaptation kinda gets one shot by 500 lvl nullfier sniper (which i tested) 

so it was like okay-ish before but they gimped it for some reason and the eximus have some wack skills 

its like we ask for balance but all we get is either over the top easy or borderline unplayable for more than half of the frames 

 

In my opinion, adaptation was never really worthwhile. Unfortunately, it is often reset because there are too many types of damage.
but where I'm constantly at 90%, then I don't go down at all and my pet constantly heals me with 3k.
I've been playing without an adaptation for years and I don't notice any difference at all.

I don't like shield gating. Yes. with instant cast is helpful. but unfortunately we have outdated UI. all information like buffs, shield, health, pet status should be in the middle and not in the corner at the ass of the world.
even in the very old game like wow it became possible with add-ons. there players programmed animated icons in the middle. and then I know immediately when I don't have a shield or when rolling guard is ready.

Yes. unfortunately a lot of warframes are unplayable in high lvl missions. and that's a lot more than half in my opinion. I don't know if warframe buffs with stones bring much. because even wukong with 1800 health, 800 armor and 13m aoe weapon with high heat proc dies very fast.

we already have solutions, at least for surv camping.
example would be max range saryn with gloom + max range nekros with silence/octavia ball + support warframe with armor ignore skill. so you can stay overnight in sp surv.
but I can't find a group for sp surv! and people mostly play something like void cascade. and happens here? oh yes... the buffs are gone. saryn has difficulty keeping spores alive... poor nekros loses armor buff and walks around with full diapers.