DE should just go ahead and put out rules for how the game has to be played.

[xcrimsonlegendx]

42 minutes ago, TheRealDestian said:

Exactly this.

As I said in another thread, if the devs want me to use a sniper rifle instead of a rocket launcher, the enemy spawn patterns need to be such that a sniper rifle is at least as appealing of an option, if not more so.

If they throw hordes of enemies at players, players will always gravitate toward the best solution for dealing with those enemies, especially when hordes of enemies are more dangerous the longer you leave them alive and shooting at you.

Again, it's all about creating circumstances in game in which every weapon type is appealing and has a place where you want to take it into a mission.

Yep, it doesn't matter if a sniper can one shot every enemy in the game. People will still choose the nuke over the single target weapon because every mission of Warframe is a race to extraction. Pretty sure the whole reason Soulframe is under development is so they can start over and do things better, because Warframe is so far detached from its origins that its impossible to reign back in. Nerfing AoE isn't going to kill the AoE meta, its just going to shift it. AoE has always been king and it always will be.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

7 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Hold Up

In case you haven't Noticed... Warframe was designed and rewards you for Killing multiple Enemies.... What Exactly do you get from increased Headshot Damage to A Single Enemy ?

Nothing... Especially Since you won't even need the Headshot In Most Cases....

Attempting to Actually Capatilize on this Change will actually make your Experience Worse since it takes longer to Line Up Those Headshots than it does to shoot Whichever Part is Larger....

As a pad player I never struggled to get headshots when I want them.  So I just don't buy into that.  There's plenty of CC in the game to make headshots easy anyway.  Also punch through is a thing.  Something I think the devs should add to non AoE weapons to a significant degree to make them more appealing as an option.  I personally don't find nuke-like weaponry to be fun and I'm never going to swap over to them even if it makes gameplay easier/is more efficient. 

7 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This Is Why We Melee Guardian Eximus Units instead of trying to Shoot Inbetween the Rotating Shields.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not sure what this has to do with proving your point right or wrong.

7 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Quite Frankly it doesn't Matter... DE does whatever they Want....

 

Pointless to mention this.  The devs do have their own intentions and how they want things to play.  But player feedback as well as raw data support their decisions and choices.  So even if you want to be a debby downer about it that doesn't change that Data is important.  So it's perfectly reasonable to assert that they don't have enough data yet to be making these calls as an opinion.

[BoxxyB]

I don't understand what OP is trying to say. People like me or OP that have over 1000 hours aren't the average player or are a good mark for balance and while I have my reservation about balance in warframe, I'm not going to sit here and tell DE that making changes to entice the average player is bad. going into trade chat and spending 1600 plat for a few arcanes to balance out the majority of end game content isn't skill but none of this is ever going to matter unless DE reworks the actual anti fun content like Eidelon hunting, or Vox Solaris standing for new players. Too much of the game is gated to the average player and it will never be fixed because of my sunken cost or because the older playerbase, like in the example you used regarding conclave can and will complain about it. I got a survey when quitting the game earlier and it asked what I would like to see and aside from new mission objectives. if I was an average player I can tell you for a fact that new companions, cosmetics, and reworked pvp isnt going to make me stay. I'm pretty sure none of my friends would play warframe if I wasn't doing a lot of their farming for them. that's all just my opinion though

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

Thread cleaned some.

Let's keep it civil folks.

Hey, thanks for leaving it up tho.

[AzureScion]

1 hour ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

Yep, it doesn't matter if a sniper can one shot every enemy in the game. People will still choose the nuke over the single target weapon because every mission of Warframe is a race to extraction. Pretty sure the whole reason Soulframe is under development is so they can start over and do things better, because Warframe is so far detached from its origins that its impossible to reign back in. Nerfing AoE isn't going to kill the AoE meta, its just going to shift it. AoE has always been king and it always will be.

They still are king. They still are efficient in killing hordes. They still retain their destructive powers. They still deal more damage per shot at single target vs any single target weapon. I still bring them to rush relic missions and they still work great and pretty spammable even without ammo mutation. So I genuinely don't understand what people are so upset about.

[YouDontCB_87]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Then stop using a zarr and switch to kuva tonkor or tenet envoy that have more ammo, use energized munitions, or run protea with her dispensary and anchor.

Thats a thing, what make you think that devs won't lay their hands on these 2 weapons further if they're being used 'too much'.

Remind you that Tenet Envoy's explosion is much more annoying + blinding.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

The single most hilarious thing about all the outrage is that people have either forgotten that players were doing just as fine without AoE weapon spam before this meta, or just weren't around for it.  At this point it's beginning to get a little sad.

[Kaggelos]

18 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Just put out rules and set builds and loadouts and tell us how you expect us to play so that we can finally figure out what fun is.  Obviously we can't do that on our own because they're doing everything they can to herd us into and away from things.  

I understand your frustration, but isn't that the whole point of every game ever, as intended by every developer ever? Sure, we as players might find new ways to have fun, but always within the parameters dictated by the game you currently play.

Also, as a matter of personal preference, i really dig the new direction the game's headed to.

Again, personal preference. 

[ChaoticEdge]

Dev:

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

19 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

What has been evident with player feedback is that DE shouldn't listen to it and do what they feel is right

I don't care about nerfs, I just want Kahl in missions with me. Two bros, armed to the teeth, facing off against the world! Is that worthless feedback? 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

13 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Maybe They Should... But you and I both know They Won't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You know... The Melodrama isn't Necessary 👀....

Are They ?

There's only One Way too Find Out.... I propose a Challenge.... Let's See how Long we can Last in Survival with no AoE and how Fast we can Complete Defense aswell 🤔....

I would do it myself But I'm Waiting for my Boosters to Run out so they don't Obscure the Results....

 

Define AOE for me.  That's honestly a large point in the post.  They're nerfing specific things because they're "disruptive" but what about everything else that has the same effect?  They're trying to define what is and isn't allowed through nerfs, like using a primary weapon that has a large AOE as your primary damage source is "disruptive" to slow players and not allowed, so they're doing everything they can to heavily limit the use of something classified as a primary weapon.

 

What's next to fall under that definition?  Is Hildryn getting a nerf because I can shut down an entire low level fissure and prevent anyone else from getting kills? Are chaining weapons getting a nerf?  Yeah, let's nerf super old gear like the Atomos.  What about other disruptive things?  Frost's bubble is very disruptive to me.  Wisp's shock mote is an absolute nightmare to play around when you're trying to speed clear a defense.  There's people that leech, essentially using other players to automate the game for them.  Better to just nerf it all.

 

Anything is disruptive to someone playing if that person is slow or bad at the game.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

The single most hilarious thing about all the outrage is that people have either forgotten that players were doing just as fine without AoE weapon spam before this meta, or just weren't around for it.  At this point it's beginning to get a little sad.

Spawns have increased, as well as enemy EHP in late game content.  And there was always an AOE meta.  Or did YOU forget?

 

Amprex and Arca Plasmor and Ignis Wraith and oh, yeah, that giant AOE map clearer called spin to win.  Those were the meta years before launchers.  All of those have a large area of effect.  Things are still AOE even if they don't have a blast radius.  Crowd clear has been the meta for years, and slow players have always cried until the current one was nerfed.  Crowd clear will continue to be the meta until the root causes of player desire to speed through missions are addressed.  And then some of us will still want to go fast because going fast is fun for them.

[GREF_TM]

18 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

like last time they reworked statuses and BUFFED viral slash which was already meta,

Correction: they heavily buffed viral only, slash was nerfed pretty heavily. Yes, it's still one of the strongest, which in itself is a testament to how garbage other two physical statuses are, but saying it was buffed is disingenuous.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

8 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

People have already addressed it. Over and over and over and over and over again. WHY DO YOU THINK DE MADE THE CHANGES IN THE FIRST PLACE!! Players shooting at their feet, rushing through the game,

And there it is.  You want everyone else to play at your pace.  Y'all will scream "git gud" till you're blue in the face but it's just the fact that you're tired of everyone else in the squad not role playing like this is a splinter cell game with you.

 

Yes, I'm going to rush the mission.  I'm chasing a part that won't drop.  I'm fighting atrocious RNG and I'm going to do that as fast as I can because fast is not only fun to me, it's also the best way to get the item I'm chasing sometime this decade.  I'm going to rush the mission with the myriad of other "disruptive" gear that you haven't started crying about yet.  And then you'll get that nerfed too.

[Marvelous_A]

Have some players been sleeping under a rock for the past 9 years when DE killed and changed meta multiple times? Not the first time AoE took a major hit and it isn't even the worst time AoE has ever been.

[MJ12]

51 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Define AOE for me.  That's honestly a large point in the post.  They're nerfing specific things because they're "disruptive" but what about everything else that has the same effect?  They're trying to define what is and isn't allowed through nerfs, like using a primary weapon that has a large AOE as your primary damage source is "disruptive" to slow players and not allowed, so they're doing everything they can to heavily limit the use of something classified as a primary weapon.

 

What's next to fall under that definition?  Is Hildryn getting a nerf because I can shut down an entire low level fissure and prevent anyone else from getting kills? Are chaining weapons getting a nerf?  Yeah, let's nerf super old gear like the Atomos.  What about other disruptive things?  Frost's bubble is very disruptive to me.  Wisp's shock mote is an absolute nightmare to play around when you're trying to speed clear a defense.  There's people that leech, essentially using other players to automate the game for them.  Better to just nerf it all.

 

Anything is disruptive to someone playing if that person is slow or bad at the game.

It's especially funny because the Lich update that came with the Kuva Bramma introduced a AoE weapon with absurdly good ammo efficiency that got indirectly buffed by the introduction of Internal Bleeding (meaning now it has over twice the chance to create forced slash procs, thanks to its forced impact procs on AoE), noticeable blast radius, and decent handling. More amusingly, it never did self-damage.

You'd have thought that this weapon would get mentioned everywhere as meta, right? People would be talking about it all the time, they'd talk about it in the same way they talk about the busted Kuva Zarr and Kuva Bramma, right?

Yet not a single peep. Nobody talks about the Kuva Chakkhurr. Nobody says that "Kuva Chakkhurr spammers" are ruining the game. It has a low but not absurdly so disposition of 0.85x. The reason for this is the Kuva Chakkurr has a 3m blast radius so you can't wipe entire rooms with it (it's notable that the Tenet Envoy, which is a ludicrously high-damage launcher with a large blast radius, gets a lot less complaining than the cluster-bomb throwing Kuva Zarr/Kuva Bramma, probably because the lack of submunitions means it covers a smaller area).

It's funny because people are talking about radical changes like adding self-damage that will instantly bring you to critical health and yet the lowest-hanging fruit of "have you tried nerfing the blast radii of these outlier weapons somewhat" has not been tried, despite the fact that this very low-hanging fruit would feel better because self-damage has extremely rancid vibes in Warframe and demonstrably keeps AoE weapons in check. Like, maybe first try making AoE "spam" less rewarding instead of making people jump through more hoops to do AoE spam, which is still overpowered before saying you're all out of ideas, self-damage it is?

[Marvelous_A]

40 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

Hey sweetheart, consider tell me an example of when was the worst time AoE nerfed that not because of bug/abuse? And how long the game mode last and how long the nerf discussions last, I'm intrigue.

Tonkor and Simulor nerf back in 2018? Those 2 were the most used AoE at that time, DE changed completely how they work and the previous MS+BR melee meta still existed back then so melee took over the crown for about a year. 

 

The current AoE meta didn't even start much later until self-stagger, Primed Firestorm and more powerful AoE weapons (e.g. Kuva and Tenet variants) were introduced to the game.

 

Edit: Upon checking melee LoS came earlier than Tonkor and Simulor nerf. But the melee meta (called Spin-2-win) lasted from 2016 to at least MS was hard nerfed from additive buff to multiplicative and that happened somewhere 2019. Point is Warframe meta always changes and this isn't the first time DE changes something so drastically and changes the meta entirely. They killed off the spin-2-win meta that lasted for 3 years in 2019 and many more will happen in the future too.

[Crevab]

Don't forget adding damage fall-off to every single weapon with a Radial atrack

[Achlevius]

14 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Nerfing AoE will make farm/grind longer.

Will it, though?

I hear this often from the pro-AoE crowd, but how many game modes honestly benefit from AoE spam?

The only mission I can see benefit from it is Exterminate.  All the other game modes have timers or some other limit where killing faster doesn't really get you anything extra.

Sure you can kill faster with AoE spam in Survival, but each round is still going to be 5 minutes.  Likewise with Mobile Defense and Sanctuary Onslaught. 

And there's a reason why players often run Speedva in Defense missions.  Even if you could kill all the enemies with a well-placed AoE shot, they don't all spawn at once anyway.

In Assassination, Capture, Rescue, Sabotage, and Spy missions you can pretty much ignore the trash mobs, and in cases where you must deal with them (e.g. Ambulas), there, again, is no benefit to killing them faster with AoE spam then with single-target weapons.

In Defection, Excavation, Hijack and Interception, the only benefit AoE has is that it makes it less likely you will lose a squad / excavator / momentum / satellite tower, so it doesn't so much speed up the game as it helps ensure it does not slow down.  But if you are truly having a hard time in these missions with non-AoE spam weapons, I'd argue you probably need a better loadout.  Maybe bring Oberon instead of Trinity to that Excavator farm.

And finally, Void Fissures: these missions, especially when played on Capture or Exterminate, can actually suffer from AoE spam, as killing enemies too quickly can lead to a scenario where not enough Void Traces drop.  Granted, this is a bug / balancing issue that DE needs to fix, but in it's current state, spamming AoE weapons in these game modes is foolhardy.

The only exception to the above are the Railjack Corpus missions, where the enemies are substantially tankier...but also where you can just call in your Voidrig with it's Mausolon / Arquebex, both of which are, ironically, AoE spam weapons...

[YouDontCB_87]

6 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Tonkor and Simulor nerf back in 2018? Those 2 were the most used AoE at that time,

Is it the changes on update 24.2? I see devs making them from handy become not-handy in changes.

*I don't really aware of this meta back then, cause I was still solo-ing my whole mission with Loki Prime and terrible gears.

Spoiler

Tonkor

Update 24.2 (2018-12-18)

• Changed from 'fire on release' to 'fire on press' and removed grenade arc visual.
• Projectile now explodes on impact after traveling past 6m. If it impacts before 6m it is destroyed without exploding.
• Updated explosion effect and matched radius to damage (6m).
• Fire Rate increased from 2 to 3.17.
• Radial damage increased from 325 to 650.
• Clip size reduced from 2 to 1.
• Ammo capacity reduced from 40 to 30.
• 50% damage fall off added.
• Tonkor Reload Speed increased from 2 seconds to 1.7 seconds

Simular

Update 24.2 (2018-12-18)

• Simulor series changes:
  • Changed from semi-auto to automatic.
  • Added a small amount of recoil for feedback when firing.
  • Now has proper accuracy stats so mods will effect it.
  • Firestorm and Terminal Velocity Mods can now be equipped.
  • Reduced Aim Zoom from 2.23 to 1.6x.
  • Damage-over-time damage is now affected by damage mods.
  • Updated the overall FX.

• Simulor
  • Fire Rate increased from 2 to 3.
  • Ammo capacity increased from 60 to 72.
  • Clip size decreased from 10 to 8.

 

8 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

DE changed completely how they work and the previous MS+BR melee meta still existed back then so melee took over the crown for about a year

9 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Melee still hit through walls so guns like Ignis and Amprex didn't hold a candle to them

Melee still hit through walls, is that the Maiming Strike time? cause from my perspective the spinning meta (a.k.a Maiming Strike) was way-off, at least explosive weapon collide if contact walls, and I remember it fixed within some time.

For melee mod change last year, things still turn out not affecting much, cause as I further test melee still won't feel a thing, same press e to win, thus I didn't complain about the nerf.

 

31 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

The current AoE meta didn't even start much later until Primed Firestorm and more powerful AoE weapons (e.g. Kuva and Tenet variants) were introduced to the game.

I felt like they encouraged the meta for years, then finally decide this is a mistake.

 

Why I care about this nerf on Ammo issue so much, because it actually makes players so hard to play the weapons.

On top of the example of melee, imaging when you use melee for awhile it broke half way in the mission, and you auto switch into another weapon, then you have to use that weapon to collect charges to fix your melee weapon so you can further use it. *hope you can relate this to AoE ammo nerf, cause that's how I feel right now.

[Marvelous_A]

14 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

-snip-

Sadly DE isn't known to revert major nerfs in the past years. Since I joined the game they at least killed 10 or so meta builds over the years. But every time a meta is killed off another meta raises within 1 month. Instead of mourning the loss I'd suggest players to explore new meta. When Acolyte mods were first introduced people completely overlooked the potential of Maiming Strike, Argon Scope was considered the most valuable mod drop back then until people discovered the Maiming Strike+Bloodrush interaction and this Spin-2-win meta went for the next 3 years.

Evidently Warframe is trying to include more skill based gameplay and DE start putting more limitations on AoE attacks. IMO they will eventually consider harshier trade-off on various AoE attacks, be it warframes or weapons. Maybe by adding LoS check or ammo penalty.

[YouDontCB_87]

16 minutes ago, Achlevius said:

And finally, Void Fissures: these missions, especially when played on Capture or Exterminate, can actually suffer from AoE spam, as killing enemies too quickly can lead to a scenario where not enough Void Traces drop.  Granted, this is a bug / balancing issue that DE needs to fix, but in it's current state, spamming AoE weapons in these game modes is foolhardy.

First of all, all the time I've played in Void Fissure mission, where not enough Void Traces drop, was caused by some genius that play Thermal Sunder with Gauss/Titania, fire up the whole room with Thermal Sunder, and I don't see fixing for it.

19 minutes ago, Achlevius said:

The only exception to the above are the Railjack Corpus missions, where the enemies are substantially tankier...but also where you can just call in your Voidrig with it's Mausolon / Arquebex, both of which are, ironically, AoE spam weapons...

Interesting behavior/implementation from devs, (1) they make enemier tankier because of AoE; (2) then introduce more AoE or stronger mods to buff AoE in between while also buffing enemies (eximus change); (3) nerf AoE, now buffed enemies are now laughing at players

More ironically was the update 32 itself, they discouraging AoE playstyle, while give 2 AoE weapons in 3 new weapons 👏

 

3 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Sadly DE isn't known to revert major nerfs in the past years. Since I joined the game they at least killed 10 or so meta builds over the years. But every time a meta is killed off another meta raises within 1 month. Instead of mourning the loss I'd suggest players to explore new meta. When Acolyte mods were first introduced people completely overlooked the potential of Maiming Strike, Argon Scope was considered the most valuable mod drop back then until people discovered the Maiming Strike+Bloodrush interaction and this Spin-2-win meta went for the next 3 years.

Well.. Kuva Hek one shot Archon or Incarnon guns 'dududu' Archon are meta now xD

[Achlevius]

1 minute ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

First of all, all the time I've played in Void Fissure mission, where not enough Void Traces drop, was caused by some genius that play Thermal Sunder with Gauss/Titania...

OK. And?

 

2 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

fire up the whole room with Thermal Sunder, and I don't see fixing for it.

The Devs make sure enough enemies spawn if players have less than 10 Void Traces? 😅

 

4 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

Interesting behavior/implementation from devs, (1) they make enemier tankier because of AoE; (2) then introduce more AoE or stronger mods to buff AoE in between while also buffing enemies (eximus change); (3) nerf AoE, now buffed enemies are now laughing at players

Wait, what were the "more AoE or stronger mods to buff AoE" after they introduced Railjack's tankier enemies?

 

5 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

More ironically was the update 32 itself, they discouraging AoE playstyle, while give 2 AoE weapons in 3 new weapons

It's only "ironic" if you believe that DE wants to discourage players from playing with AoE weapons altogether.

DE's problem with the AoE meta isn't "players use AoE", it's "certain AoE weapons are so powerful that they have become the go-to weapon for every type of content".

And as others have pointed out, aside from the nerf to Primed Firestorm / Fulmination, the damage of the problematic weapons hasn't actually been nerfed.

 

[Cerikus]

22 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Just put out rules and set builds and loadouts and tell us how you expect us to play so that we can finally figure out what fun is.

The audacity some developers have.

Such a horrible world we live in when game developers dare to change, rebalance or shift meta of their own game.

Unbelivable!!! 😏

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, Crevab said:

Fantastic, now I know the solution to this whole mess. Rename Primary and Secondary to Two-handed and One-handed. That way you won't be able to fall back on the dictionary as your excuse for feeling self-righteous about wanting to only use one part of your arsenal

Fun fact: Back in the early days the terms for our ranged weapon types were actually "Long Gun" and "Sidearm". If I were to make a guess as to why this was dropped, it was probably because the former term didn't really fit bows.