Can "hard content" even happen?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2022-12-07 at 5:23 PM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

After breezing through archon hunts with Revenant, I have to ask, "is it possible to make hard content in Warframe, if everyone can use an unkillable frame, or overoptimize against said content?" 

For example, archon hunts and arbitrations were created with the intent of making difficult content where you can't afford to mess up, but if you use a tank frame, you can't really mess up and die. 

This sort of thing also happens with other mission types, like spy (where Wisp or Ivara guarantee a perfect completion), or mobile defense (where Limbo can shield the terminals from all damage and Vauban groups up all threats for easy extermination). 

So will we ever get challenging content, or will things like trials and raids fail as warframes stay undefeatable forevermore?

 

This isn't a DE issue. It's a community issue. Speed framers, scammers and trophy lovers complain about things being too hard (because they care about the rewards more than gameplay) while endurance players constantly shoot themselves in the foot by telling the game. Then we have the "hard content" police who remind DE that ALL of the elements that make up hard content in other games isn't allowed in Warframe. 

So, if you can manage to shut all of those folks up, then maybe...just maybe, you'll get your wish 

[markus230]

On 2022-12-08 at 1:38 AM, Voltage said:

The issue is the playerbase has been nurtured for a decade now that missions should have almost no fail conditions.

Basically this. Any time DE tries to add content that requires even the barest of minimums from the player to complete, it ends up being a massive controversy (see: The New War quest uproar). The average Warframe player doesn't want to be challenged by the game in a way that would require them to get better as a player, if it can't be solved by copying a build off of YouTube, it's "not warframe".

Just to be clear I'm not blaming the playerbase, because the playerbase is the way it is because of how DE designs the game.

[Hypernaut1]

10 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This isn't a DE issue. It's a community issue. Speed framers, scammers and trophy lovers complain about things being too hard (because they care about the rewards more than gameplay) while endurance players constantly shoot themselves in the foot by telling the game. Then we have the "hard content" police who remind DE that ALL of the elements that make up hard content in other games isn't allowed in Warframe. 

So, if you can manage to shut all of those folks up, then maybe...just maybe, you'll get your wish 

I remember there was a time when you could actually fail a defense mission at wave 20. There was a time when enemies could actually kill you with their abilities. 

The vocal player base didn't like it all, and DE catered to them. So this is what we have. 

That said- if you don't use a frame designed to mitigate all difficulty, the game can be an engaging challenge. Especially if you go solo. Warframe isn't Dark souls hard, but it's not as easy as some make it out to be. 

 

[Ventura_Highway]

On 2022-12-08 at 4:35 PM, trst said:

As I said in my first post in this thread:

The difficulty of it, and why players found it ""impossible"" to run it solo, was needing to manage the objectives (fighter kills, crewship kills, and away objectives) all while keeping your ship alive and maintaining the resources needed to repair it. Especially in the Veil where your Railjack could get a hull breach in a matter of seconds. You'd need to keep fighting ships to maintain enough resources both for ship supplies and Revolite, take out Crewships quickly to keep from being constantly swarmed with boarding crew, get in and out of away objectives fast enough without your ship blowing up, and all while your ship would get an increasing number of hazards with fires and frozen doors.

And even when in a group everyone had to contribute to some part of this, and fast, as the amount of Revolite you could craft was limited as was the speed at which you could craft more. It's the only mode that didn't just reward speed and efficiency but required it, especially if you did it solo.

I see. I think if you're talking about doing other things besides killing.. well that's been in the game for a long time, but I suppose the number and difficulty involved are a different story. However..

On 2022-12-08 at 4:35 PM, trst said:

And what does it matter what Destiny or any other games do? Trials released using mechanics, like mandatory co-op, that aren't seen anywhere else in the game. But it outright required learning from a live 3rd party just to learn how to get around all the progression stopping softlocks. Like requiring a Nekros exploit in Jordas Verdict to deal with a softlock caused by enemies not spawning (until they patched that and, iirc, made the Trial impossible to finish for a while).

Wait a minute, you're not seriously suggesting DE should have made a tutorial on how to deal with the bugs in their game right?

[Silligoose]

On 2022-12-08 at 3:23 AM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

After breezing through archon hunts with Revenant, I have to ask, "is it possible to make hard content in Warframe, if everyone can use an unkillable frame, or overoptimize against said content?" 

For example, archon hunts and arbitrations were created with the intent of making difficult content where you can't afford to mess up, but if you use a tank frame, you can't really mess up and die. 

This sort of thing also happens with other mission types, like spy (where Wisp or Ivara guarantee a perfect completion), or mobile defense (where Limbo can shield the terminals from all damage and Vauban groups up all threats for easy extermination). 

So will we ever get challenging content, or will things like trials and raids fail as warframes stay undefeatable forevermore?

 

Technically, yes, DE can introduce challenging content right now if they want to without addressing imbalances. The caveat is that the challenge would feel rather superficial, forced and bland, as it would boil down to some sort of mechanic in which players have to kill a certain number of enemies or move from one point to another in a very limited time for whatever reason. It would be rather one-dimensional and lack depth.

DE could also go with their current MO and try to make more challenging content, with the caveat being to erode the depth of the game and/or progression, as we see with The Grendel Missions, Break Narmer and will likely soon see with Duviri. Erosion of depth is seen with features that invalidate rather important mechanics that grant this game depth as seen with Overgaurd and the new Archons that are simply unaffected by the majority of Warframe abilities, which again leads to rather shallow and one-dimensional play.

In terms of a more comprehensive and realistic answer, no DE cannot present challenging endgame content to endgame players that maintains the type of play and depth one would expect from Warframe at endgame: There are various mechanics in Warframe in which the upper potential limit of power is exceedingly high, or approaches having no limit. As long as these imbalances and upper potential limits of power remain unaddressed, content cannot challenge players within various mechanics and "challenging endgame content" such as raids or trials will be shallow and rather dimensional, whilst also having a high probability of shoehorning players into very specific types of loadouts.

The reality is DE appears neither interested, nor capable, of addressing the imbalances that need to be addressed properly, in order to present a challenging endgame experience with depth and variety regarding frame gameplay. 

[(PSN)rexis12]

They can probably add in super hard enemies, good luck facing them over and over and over and over again in a game where the actual gameplay loop is to fight something several hundred times over because the game's reward system is genuinely trash with the RNG and randomness.

If they want to add in super hard modes or battles or whatever, they have to suck up and provide a guarentee'd reward that's GOOD and not behind some kind of reward pool where the options can be "Super Meta Defining Mod" vs "100 Credits, go #*!% yourself". Because giving rewards when player put in extra effort is something that DE is often allergic to, unless that reward is diluted behind 8 other S#&$ty awards.

Of course people are gonna complain because the effort they put don't matter when the reward at the end has the chance to be bad, so they could play the BEST Warframe of their entire life, using every single mechanic and trick and tips and every method of playstyle possible. Only to realise that all that effort means jack and all when the reward you get is not determined by how well you played, but by a random machine.

It's why the whole speed run and 'Doing things fast' become common in the first place. By denying Reward Through Effort, and only giving Reward Through Repetition, people will find ways to make the Repetition faster and call out the unfairness of having to put Extra Effort when the only way to get reward is through Repetition.

[Monolake]

Cant have hard content when the game lacks any balance and if you tailor it to top end then it becomes impossible for the average players who dont learn meachanics and dont farm best gear or minmax, so they have to balance it for 'average' which is too easy, and yet you still have complaints  from some players that its too hard, despite the fact that you can solo archons missions with mediocre gear - they are far easier than normal steelpath.

Giving Revenant easy god mod was a massive mistake, its a legit cheat with no downsides, not sure what was DE thinking.

And I dont think they've even bothered to re-balance archons mechanics to remove oneshots yet let more weapons damage them, so its still all or nothing.

You could absolutely make mechanically challenging interesting encounters and enemies that arent punishing and aren't just gear check and some recent additions like the new zariman enemies are step in a right direction.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

19 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

They can probably add in super hard enemies, good luck facing them over and over and over and over again in a game where the actual gameplay loop is to fight something several hundred times over because the game's reward system is genuinely trash with the RNG and randomness.

If they want to add in super hard modes or battles or whatever, they have to suck up and provide a guarentee'd reward that's GOOD and not behind some kind of reward pool where the options can be "Super Meta Defining Mod" vs "100 Credits, go #*!% yourself". Because giving rewards when player put in extra effort is something that DE is often allergic to, unless that reward is diluted behind 8 other S#&$ty awards.

Of course people are gonna complain because the effort they put don't matter when the reward at the end has the chance to be bad, so they could play the BEST Warframe of their entire life, using every single mechanic and trick and tips and every method of playstyle possible. Only to realise that all that effort means jack and all when the reward you get is not determined by how well you played, but by a random machine.

It's why the whole speed run and 'Doing things fast' become common in the first place. By denying Reward Through Effort, and only giving Reward Through Repetition, people will find ways to make the Repetition faster and call out the unfairness of having to put Extra Effort when the only way to get reward is through Repetition.

I still haven't found a reward that sucks in this game. I usually only hear this from vets who already have and use the rewards. Is this the case here too?

As for the content, the game has been made easier because PLAYERS asked for it and DE provided. We then asked for harder and got Steel Path with acolytes. That said, the forum queens are only a few voices that talk really loudly, claiming the game is too easy yet I constantly see either dying or Wukongs in SP pubs. 16 very loud and hardcore posters do not speak for the millions of players and we all witnessed the "pain and suffering" of all of those players who needed the bramma and Wukongs crutches to even play this game. 

I think DE has done the best job maintaining very high rates of fun and a good mix of challenge that relies more on metrics than the 16 great forum posters. 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

22 hours ago, Monolake said:

 

Giving Revenant easy god mod was a massive mistake, its a legit cheat with no downsides, not sure what was DE thinking.

I know I used Revenant as my example, but this literally happens with Lavos, Inaros, Nidus, Hildryn etc. 

Even in levelcap where you can't just face tank everything, we have our invisibility frames, i-frame spammers, and protea/Hildryn.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

Yes. It requires the creativity of raid like content where working together in perfect unison while not simply shooting a meat tank is the objective. This was known as trials in Warframe. Also known as my favorite content ever because it was the most challenging. One mess up in nightmare LoR and you failed. It was all about teamwork and communication. It was fun. Then they removed them for no reason. If it was bc it was old content they weren't gonna update, conclave should be removed too. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

It was fun

Well, here's the thing, you see it fun, I see it as tedious babysitting where one mistake and the whole team fail and not to mention the toxicity from one or more players berating everyone even if said player is in the wrong

5 hours ago, (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Then they removed them for no reason.

Or maybe you can check their patch notes on trials and see how every update brings bugs into that mode only. You can either check to forum or wiki/fandom for that

[TheArmchairThinker]

Well OP, there are many points to debate for "hard"

First, what is the thing that can be universally accepted as "hard"?

Second, how do you make something hard without getting trivialized eventually but without using anything other games use because "it's not hard, just cheap tricks because DE sucks at making challenge and difficulty" when other games use this and they praise the same "cheap trick" they bash for being in Warframe

Third, do we really need this "hard content"? The so called "hard content" basically end up with you against enemies way beyond your maximum power/limit and it's up to worksheet warriors to eventually trivialize it while possibly alienating those who don't play hardcore. And the thing is, 33% of players want it while the rest is split equal between no and don't know, are you sure you want to suddenly put limits as "challenge" or "hard content" risking angering the 66% with no guarantee those 33% will be completely happy because they must have hard limits imposed on them by the devs to enjoy the game?

Fourth, Warframe is way too long to turn into that direction and I'm fine with it. I'm not playing hard games after a day of work and Warframe is the main game for me, casually blasting enemies without overthinking about running out or dying from enemies. We already have no limits imposed pretending to be "hard" or "challenging", no need to change that unless you can ensure you can cover the risk from making 66% of playerbase angry (33 million registered players and $165,000,000 potential loss from each player spending $5)

[Paradoxity]

Can it? Sure. 

There's a number of ways DE could introduce 'hard' content- from mechanics heavy team encounters that require problem-solving while on the clock (And under fire) from the team and good communication and execution to meta events that require resource management outside of missions in order to be able to achieve goals inside linked missions. They could design multi-boss runs that require specific damage output (Or *gasp* weak points) in order to defeat them, or specific, time-limited in mission buffs  to do things- you get the point. It's mechanically very possible for there to be hard content. 

Will it? Not in this game's lifetime. 

As many have pointed out, there's no way it's going to happen. The hue and cry from the player base the *second* something isn't a simple walkthrough would mean it's either nerfed into virtual uselessness as a challenge- or simply removed. There's also the difficulty inherent in dealing with DE's attitude that "All things must be viable", which removes the ability for a hard bit of content to function as a gear check- which is a level of difficulty in and of itself. 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

There cannot be "hard content" without massively slowing down grind.  Anything that is actually hard and has easy to hit fail states will make the grind and RNG feel 10x worse.

 

Pick a hard game you've played.  Pick one of the hardest enemies from that game.  Now imagine you have to farm them for a 0.02% drop chance.  That's Condition Overload's real drop chance.  You want it to drop from that super hard enemy or a Butcher?  I know some of you are masochists, but I'm not interested in fighting something like a Crucible Knight from Elden Ring 5,000 times to get a mod to drop.  Even once you hit zen enlightenment and got gud and they weren't hard anymore,  the TTK on a Butcher, and therefore the grind time on the mod is still a lot lower.

 

You want harder content?  Even while still using forma and potatoes and actually trying?  The game is full of squishy frames and crappy weapons and you don't actually have to put a dragon key on your gear wheel.  You don't have to pick the frame whose whole schtick is being immortal.  If you're already taking squishy frames with no shield gate reliance into the hardest content and using low tier weapons, then nothing DE puts out is ever going to be challenging and I don't know why you think you're going to get your challenge fix from a grind based hoard shooter.

[(PSN)Worta696]

Yes, have You seen kela de thaim rotating things? Those have killed more players than i can remember.

Also DE can introduce death on falling to lava and abyss, etc, currently there are 0 penalties for it.

Give more Power to specific units and make high lv missions with multiple factions.

Add more units to the pools that You usually don't see together like kuva guardians, the ones with the spear on zariman, ghouls, infested emissaries.

Create specific units with grabs to counteract mobility, high damage and  mobility Snipers using Nira wall latch Mechanic.

They can add crazy modifiers to rotations or specific objectives.

Thay can do challenging content they just like To go easy on their player base which get My hopes up for raids.

 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

 

You want harder content?  Even while still using forma and potatoes and actually trying?  The game is full of squishy frames and crappy weapons and you don't actually have to put a dragon key on your gear wheel.  You don't have to pick the frame whose whole schtick is being immortal.  If you're already taking squishy frames with no shield gate reliance into the hardest content and using low tier weapons, then nothing DE puts out is ever going to be challenging and I don't know why you think you're going to get your challenge fix from a grind based hoard shooter.

Aimbot enemies and instakill toxin clouds are less "hard" than they are annoying. 

Like if we had a boss fight where said toxin damage was telegraphed and I could dodge it, or enemies where there was a way to avoid bullets other than "kill the enemies first," I would understand your point.

[Dairaion]

On 2022-12-07 at 8:38 PM, Voltage said:

Yes, we did. They were called Trials. The "hard" part of the mission was team communication and competent players in a team working efficiently to complete 3 missions in a row. The majority of players didn't like them because they didn't stoop to the low bar of players that want to solo Revenant cheese or let On Call Crew wipe a tileset while they make a sandwich. It didn't help that the mode locked the most prestigious enhancements at the time (namely Arcane Grace, Guardian, Avenger and Energize). The ironic part is that back then people called Trial puzzles "not Warframe", but here in 2022, that is closer to Warframe than most of what we get these days.

I think DE is more than capable of making new content that has older players thinking about arsenal choices and cheeses being reeled in. The issue is the playerbase has been nurtured for a decade now that missions should have almost no fail conditions. I still feel that Self-Revives were a bit of a mistake, and Arbitrations were made worse with the addition of revives in my opinion.

Any form of communication on a PC game is going to be hard, especially considering how absurd some things are due to how the game is designed. for instance if the lotus didn't tell you how long would it take you, using experimentation and in game context to figure out how to defeat a kuva mission? the game is not designed for slow thought out game modes and they don't want to be. the closest thing we had to a stealth mission, SPY has warframes specifically made to beat it because a mission any longer than 2 minutes is a waste of time and doesn't confer more rewards.

Kahl is a good step forward, but i think Warframe in general would benefit from a better reward system to encourage players to actually learn to do things methodically, like maybe a passive endo generation during missions (1 endo per second for the first 10 minutes x (1+MR) with no cap for endless missions. it would also help to delete Wukong and Nezha.

[thetdw2000]

I don't think "hard" has ever been the right word. "Engaging" is a better term.

Engaging content is content where you have to focus on the mission. Engaging content is where you turn down the music or podcast you have playing in the background to hear the actual game for audio cues. Engaging content is when you have to aim, move, dodge, use abilities, manage ammo and energy, and have a real chance of failure if you #*!% up. It doesn't have to be "hard".

Warframe has been lacking in this department for years. 99% of the "difficulty" in Warframe comes from gear checks and knowing how to cheese obstacles. Enemies get "harder" at higher levels, but all this does is turn them into bullet sponges with aimbot hitscan weapons that will down you in just a few seconds.

What does this system encourage? Overbuilding. Look up any "build" that you can find on overframe or from some Youtuber. What do you see? Typically, unless it's some kind of niche/meme build or built around a specific riven or synergy between weapons, you see a generic build: damage (from a mod or arcane), multishot, CC, CD, elementals (usually viral + heat or corrosive + heat) and maybe occasionally a mod to help with recoil, reload speed, or ammo. Likewise, most frame builds revolve around cheesing shield gating or mechanics such as mesmer skin. This is not good game design, because the playstyle this encourages is not befitting a third person shooter. It's boring, you just keep pressing the "don't die" button over and over and clicking in the vague direction of enemies with some AOE instakill weapon/ability.

I think the best way to address the situation would be to try to move away from enemy scaling and reel in player damage numbers. Deep Rock Galactic is a good example of a game where the mods add to your loadout, instead of just merely allowing you to cheese the game. You see a variety of builds with a lot of different playstyles and room for customization. In DRG the enemy scaling also never gets out of hand, to the point at which crazy damage multipliers become necessary. Damage mods exist, but are used only to meet breakpoints, and usually compete with equally powerful mods in their respective slots. Enemies at hazard 5 only gain a slight damage resistance. As a result the game remains engaging even if you have fully modded your gear and enter a hazard 3 mission, since even at that easy difficulty you still have to pay attention so as to not be overrun.

Unfortunately the time to deal with this core gameplay issue was back when Zamboni was making similar criticisms to the mod system. The outrage from players who spent thousands of plat on rivens and obtaining the best mods and arcanes would be the biggest in the history of the game. Me, personally, I wouldn't mind it as long as it meant I could get a consistent challenge from Warframe again.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

I thought The New War boss fights qualified as 'hard content'

where the fights were based on traditional, dodge, watch for tell, attack timing, skill mechanics; rather than bigger and bigger stat numbers.

 

Ironic how the Archon hunts threw all that away and became purely based on DPS and damage attenuation....

[Highasafly]

Lol. OP used Revenent and is complaining about challenging content. Revenent is immortal frame and exists for a reason. Now do the archon hunt without revenent/ Ivara  and kuva hek/felrax and see how you find it overall.

[(PSN)Arbiter_Tanos]

On 2022-12-07 at 7:23 PM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

After breezing through archon hunts with Revenant, I have to ask, "is it possible to make hard content in Warframe, if everyone can use an unkillable frame, or overoptimize against said content?" 

For example, archon hunts and arbitrations were created with the intent of making difficult content where you can't afford to mess up, but if you use a tank frame, you can't really mess up and die. 

This sort of thing also happens with other mission types, like spy (where Wisp or Ivara guarantee a perfect completion), or mobile defense (where Limbo can shield the terminals from all damage and Vauban groups up all threats for easy extermination). 

So will we ever get challenging content, or will things like trials and raids fail as warframes stay undefeatable forevermore?

 

This is another reason why I think Conclave should be added too. A Grineer vs Corpus PVP game mode, or just allow Dojo Clan Raids so that it’s players vs players, warframes and Tenno usable. 

[Skoomaseller]

I've said this before on a similar topic but in my opinion, I think fun and engaging should take precedence over challenge in a game like this one.

There are people who derive fun and engagement from challenge however so I can understand wanting something that is challenging. But don't think that'll happen anytime soon with the power that we have.

And I don't just mean Revenant. Many (possibly any) frames can easily trivialize any content alongside our absurdly powerful arsenal. So if challenge is going to be a thing I think some things will need to be toned down a tad bit.

[(PSN)rexis12]

Honestly to me the main issue comes from players that think that 'Challenging' content is just bullet sponge enemies that don't respond to Warframe Kits and are just healthbars to empty.

If that's the extent of what Warframe players consider challenging, then of course they're going to think nothing is 'Hard' when Warframe players have shown to be able to reach the damage cap. But anytime the concept of having mechanical depth, at the expense of maybe giving advantage to playstyles that aren't just DPS nukes, they throw a fit.

I mean, when Overguard was added and Amps did nothing to them, I suggested to have more mechanical depth and add it so that they don't just take "Extra Damage" but make them super effective. The response I got was that I was entitled to have to 'Free Easy Gameplay' and that I should just build the DPS amp (That was already Meta before Overguard by the by) and that's how the game should be played, just a DPS race.

Hell even now people, at least at the subreddit, don't even like the idea of mechanics like using Radiation to cancel out things like Guardian DR, because everything else in the game is built around DPS and at that point players can just out DPS the Guardian DR. Doesn't help that, unless you DID bring a Radiation weapon that's so the only choice since you either out DPS the Guardians DR or you deal with the bullet sponge that is the Eximus unit (Who you would kill since, again the rest of the game is built around DPS and nearly nothing else).

And again, people are just FINE with having enemies that don't respond to 90% of your kit and just stand there blankly as you either dump your whole mag or one-shot them. So that's the content that gets made, and that results in the 'Hard Content' being a DPS race.

'Glances Aside'

Even fun things like Zariman Angels become DPS races at higher levels, where using anything other than Madurai is pulling teeth.

[(XBOX)Seedenator]

To make hard[er] content take away the easy button min/maxxing people are doing. You know the loudest complainers are the cheesiest meta-built frames out there.
They don't even have to add new content, just add a "chaos" button to existing matchmaking, have it randomly select a frame and weapons. You get to keep whatever levels you have in them (if any) and get some random mods, but no other upgrades.

My take has always been the people who want harder content are either getting a kick from the challenge (pro tip: not everyone does)
Or they want to brag about beating it, THEY don't want it to be hard, they want it to be hard for other people so they can complain about how easy it is to people who can't beat it.   

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2022-12-07 at 5:23 PM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

After breezing through archon hunts with Revenant, I have to ask, "is it possible to make hard content in Warframe, if everyone can use an unkillable frame, or overoptimize against said content?" 

For example, archon hunts and arbitrations were created with the intent of making difficult content where you can't afford to mess up, but if you use a tank frame, you can't really mess up and die. 

This sort of thing also happens with other mission types, like spy (where Wisp or Ivara guarantee a perfect completion), or mobile defense (where Limbo can shield the terminals from all damage and Vauban groups up all threats for easy extermination). 

So will we ever get challenging content, or will things like trials and raids fail as warframes stay undefeatable forevermore?

 

The ratio between players saying they want hard content versus the players liking the current difficulty is as vast as an island to an ocean. It takes quite a bit of time for most vets to even begin saying what you're saying...well, unless they watch guides all day and allow handholding.