Are Incarnons hurting the weapons they are applied to? (The Non-Incarnon Mode)

[Zahnrad]

This is something I feel like I need to be careful how I phrase because I'll easily step on a landmine with how hyped and popular Incarnons currently are.

I don't hate Incarnons and I think they are fun, but I've had a concern that they are harming or killing the original function of their weapons.

 

Objectively, Incarnons ARE making older weapons more powerful and relevant in the current meta of Warframe. But from a more subjective standpoint, are they actually negatively impacting the weapons too?

From what I see from the most part, the original intention of the weapon is only used to build up charge. Once charge has been built up, you switch to the Incarnon mode until it's empty, rinse and repeat.

Obviously, Incarnons are flashy and meant to be the cool factor to these weapons but this is causing those weapons to have their original purpose sidelined in favor of exclusively using the Incarnon mode. Incarnon mode is more or less Infinite Ammo so long as you are effective at building Incarnon Charge.

Again I love Incarnon modes and I don't believe they should be removed but I can't say I'm a huge supporter of the original weapon intention being relegated to becoming a Incarnon Charger.

 

I'm not sure on what the perfect solution on this is. But I think it'd be interesting if we were given 1 or 2 more Evos on each Incarnon Adapted weapon to give buffs to the weapon specifically to the Non-Incarnon form. Something to make people want to use the Non-Incarnon part of the weapon instead of exclusively using just the Incarnon Mode.

 

It could be simple Stat increases for the non-Incarnon form or unique mechanics that aren't Void related. For example, the max Evo of the Miter lets you charge an explosive disc that can only be used on the Non-Incarnon form. Unfortunately it's competing with General Status and Crit Chance buffs, along with not currently being in a great state by itself.

More stuff like that would be cool, for example. Maybe on the Karak (hint hint) a non-Incarnon evolution could give us Molotovs to throw, like the Saturn Six Fugitives

P.S.

When I say more Evolutions I mean another Node like the original Incarnon weapons have. But the extra node(s) would only apply to the Non-Incarnon part of the weapon.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Zahnny
Edited Title for better first glance clarity

[Skoomaseller]

i don't think so because the original purpose of the weapon is not erased.

it's still there and you can choose to stay in base form if you so please.

incarnon evos also help the base forms as most if not all of them also provide base stat buffs. 

so instead of looking at, for example, the strun as "it is now a semiautomatic rocket launcher" you should look at it as "it is a shotgun, that so happens to also be a semiautomatic rocket launcher."

Edited May 27, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[Zahnrad]

2 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

i don't think so because the original purpose of the weapon is not erased.

it's still there and you can choose to stay in base form if you so please.

incarnon evos also help the base forms as most if not all of them also provide base stat buffs. 

I get that it's not gone or erased. The issue is more of "Why would you want to use this when this other part is like, x5 more effective?"

[Skoomaseller]

Just now, Zahnny said:

I get that it's not gone or erased. The issue is more of "Why would you want to use this when this other part is like, x5 more effective?"

but that isn't harming the original purpose of the weapon. that's just tacking on a bonus to it.

the weapon's original purpose is still there and it is also empowered/improved thanks to incarnon evolution perks. not talking about incarnon transformation but rather the bonus stats granted by the other evolution perks.

and like I said, it is up to you if you choose not to use its incarnon form.

harming the original purpose of the weapon would be something like not allowing the use of the base form the moment you fully charge the incarnon meter.

[EDM774]

Not all incarnon modes are built equal, And all the buffs affect the normal mode too. Take the incarnon vasto for example, I's become one of my favorite side arms, and I almost exclusively use it's base form... why? because the incarnon mode is 4 burst shots of 6 bullets each  with insane multishot. It's the ultimate cowboy gun now with deathtrap trigger you quickdraw to get insane red crits and then occasionally incarnon for the yee haw hip rapid fire burst and then go back to herding the cattle... err I mean slaying grineer.

Edited May 27, 2023 by EDM774

[Zahnrad]

6 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

but that isn't harming the original purpose of the weapon. that's just tacking on a bonus to it.

the weapon's original purpose is still there and it is also empowered/improved thanks to incarnon evolution perks. not talking about incarnon transformation but rather the bonus stats granted by the other evolution perks.

and like I said, it is up to you if you choose not to use its incarnon form.

harming the original purpose of the weapon would be something like not allowing the use of the base form the moment you fully charge the incarnon meter.

I guess that's fair. I just wonder if DE will be tracking stats on if are exclusively using the Incarnon mode and if the non-incarnon is being ignored on some weapons.

[Pakaku]

It's more like nothing has really fundamentally changed. Bad weapons will still be bad and you were never really going to use their base forms anyways. Now those bad weapons with adapters serve a purpose, even if it's only a means to charge their Incarnon forms.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Pakaku

[D-Shear]

Mh, I can't relate to any of your points. I already LOVED the first gen incarnons. When I got my hands on them, I never looked back to any other gun.

In a one dimensional AoE meta at that time, it felt so good to me, to have weapons being able to be customized a step further than mods and have a skill rewarding gameplay loop in charging and using the incarnon. To me the normal version never felt like a pure charging device. There sure was and sure still is tactical advantages and disadvantages in holding your transformation. It really is that connected loop of the normal version and the incarnon working in tandem, which makes "Why would you want to use this when this other part is like, x5 more effective?" a statement, that I can't really fit into my view on the incarnon guns. For example, both Laetum and Lex Prime shred harder than most other secondaries in their normal form and are obscenely fun to use.

NOW granted. The second generation incarnons have wild balancing and bug issues. There are those outliers that are playing leagues above the others. The Incarnon trees also have one less perk total, which is just a sign of lazy dev work. Clearly they put more work and thought into the first generation, which are much more customizable. The fact that for every weapon of the 2nd generation there is literally only a SINGLE viable path highlights how the devs worked here. They just had one balancing in mind and then put random stuff into the other choices, just so they don't need to compete with each other. It really didn't help to introduce 30 of them at the same time, obviously.

[Xaero]

The only non-harmful way is to expand the upgrade tree with the options that significantly buff the base form and nerf incarnon form in exchange. That way incarnon form would be used mostly to gain ammo, should you run out of it in base form.

[Skoomaseller]

5 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

I guess that's fair. I just wonder if DE will be tracking stats on if are exclusively using the Incarnon mode and if the non-incarnon is being ignored on some weapons.

they probably are. logically for some weapons, their incarnon forms are far more useful in today's warframe.

Lato vs its incarnon for example. single target vs multi target.

[kamisama85]

Incarnon is like nitros in your car.

Just because its in there does not mean your car permanently drives in full blast turbo as soon as you turn the ignition on. You car will still drive normal as it always had but with slight improvements made to accomodate for it.

Incarnon mode is practically a choice at this point. Pretend it doesnt exist and just enjoy your slightly buffed normal weapon.

Edited May 27, 2023 by kamisama85
A lot of silly spelling error

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Well, I disagree with one of your premise, even if I think I get where you are coming from and what you mean. The bit I disagree with, is the "original intention" of the weapon. I don't necessarily view it as just being able to use the charged up mode. I mean, this may be more of an emphasis for some weapons, but even those, there can be other intentions, that may even take priority. 

Like for one, you could say they are all gimmick weapons, altered weapon variants with extra features. Such weapons can be good for player engagement, which I believe is something DE generally favours. I think fans often favour such weapons too. Warframe has unique weapons, its a great selling point. It doesn't just have shotguns... it has shotguns like the Cedo, which launches spinning status disks/glaives. Kuva Hek has 4 barrels that can be shot at once, Corinth has an explosive alt fire. Epitaph does stuff, Nukor chain linked. Like in recent years, a lot of the most popular and best weapons, tended to be a bit unusual compared to "normal" weapons. Thats not to say that some normal weapons weren't great or popular... Some are popular for being classic/sentimental favs etc. 

Incidentally, many of those classic favs, are the ones chosen for these Incarnon revamps. So I could see an argument in that, the intent with the second gen, is to breath new life and freshness into some of these old fan favs and classics, and give them more general power and to give them gimmicks. 

Also, many of the classic forms are just pure upgrades now. So you can use them effectively just as normal, (like the Felarx as well, but even the Laetum and Phenmor normal modes were quite good and steel Path capable). Some, I even think are more balanced around using the default mode more... and using the Incarnon form, for more niche situations. Like, I think the Atomos Incarnon and Vasto Incarnon, work better in normal form... for most enemies and situations in Warframe. Then the Incarnon form, is great for dealing with single target priority enemies, like Acolytes, certain Eximus, etc

I do think there is a seperate argument that could be made about "identity" though thats more subjective. Like I know some people who believed that the Burston Incarnon was actually meant for the Soma Incarnon and vice versa. Just because its more powerful? Since Soma isn't a "shotgun"? Well eh, Burston isn't either, nor was the Boltor, I don't think they swapped the modes. Which, is independent of wanting the Soma Incarnon buffed... which I do personally agree with... I did also think Atomos Incarnon was... odd. Beam weapon turning into an AOE launcher? Eh, but I have actually come to enjoy that weapon a lot. Now that I view it as a DPS Epitaph of sorts. I do like beams more, and the normal mode is very very strong. Then the Incarnon mode is fun and effective against certain enemies that the beam isn't. 

Essentially most Incarnons I have experienced, the normal forms are decently powered up enough. Though I do feel like melee overall, have been a bit under utilised. Though, I haven't got hands on all of them, and the Hate looks interesting. 

I think as vague and nebulous a concept as it is, fun and engagement from players has more intent, (whether that mean engagement in direct gameplay with the guns, and having to aim/get headshots or build combo, or from players grinding Circuit, both). 

 

[Zahnrad]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Essentially most Incarnons I have experienced, the normal forms are decently powered up enough. Though I do feel like melee overall, have been a bit under utilised. Though, I haven't got hands on all of them, and the Hate looks interesting.

Yeah, I've chosen not to spoil myself on the Incarnons until I get hold of them but as someone who is already not a big Melee fan, the Melee incarnons haven't been eye opening for me so far.

Idunno I guess as a whole I kinda wished the basic mechanics of some of these weapons were touched upon a bit more than just stat upgrades.

[trst]

It's really down to player preference how they want to use the weapon and the stat buffs make the base versions just as viable even if they're not room nuking levels.

Plus some evolutions change how the weapons perform so much that they're effectively two different guns. The Torid for example goes from an AOE DOT launcher to a chaining beam weapon and both forms serve pretty distinct uses. As well some have so little Incarnon ammo, like the Miter, that you'll end up using the base form the most anyways.

 

Though some weapons are still pretty irredeemable in their base form even with the stat increases. Like the Latron, Lato, or Vasto might perform better vs high level SP enemies but you're still using fairly slow single target weapons. With those they'll end up being Incarnon chargers just because damage alone doesn't make the base versions good enough.

IMO weapons like those really could have benefitted from an upgrade that added the ricochet effect to the base weapon. And while I don't personally like the idea of just turning everything into an AOE weapon it's really the only thing that can help weapons like these.

There's just too little value found in high damage single target weapons when weapons that're faster or with AOE already deal enough to kill anything.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

5 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Yeah, I've chosen not to spoil myself on the Incarnons until I get hold of them but as someone who is already not a big Melee fan, the Melee incarnons haven't been eye opening for me so far.

Idunno I guess as a whole I kinda wished the basic mechanics of some of these weapons were touched upon a bit more than just stat upgrades.

 

Which is a shame, I think. I am more of a guns person, myself, In fact my fav melee are actually Gunblades so... Though I know there are a lot of Warframe players that like melee a whole lot more, so i wish they could be getting more fun toys too. Some melee do seem interesting, but after I got Bo Incarnon, I... yeah. I might get Hate Incarnon though, it looks like it gets some interesting gimmicks. 

Also I get what you are saying and where you are coming from. I have actually been using a lot of the Incarnon weapons normal forms and all seem adequate/competent enough to do Steel Path, just at base. Some even seem to excel with the base form. For the record, am talking about Braton, Paris, Torid, Boltor, Lex as being decent in normal form, but of course much stronger in Incarnon form. I actually use to use some of these weapons in Steel Path before all this. You could build them to be decent, but the normal forms perform much much better now. 

Atomos and Vasto I find base forms really good for Steel Path. The Incarnons are good, but more niche and for specific circumstance (well with Vasto, you can alternate a lot as well). Soma is more complicated. 

I would also be weary of trying to make the normal base mode, too different and strong independently, because then you run the risk of peoples builds struggling to cater to both. On some weapons, they are strong enough, its not so bad if you run a beam mod and an AOE mod, but eh... You also run into the Felarx issue, where most people I know, and hear from, mostly just use base form. Which makes it unique, but I wouldn't want that to be the standard.

[taiiat]

uh i mean

the Incarnon Tree also upgrades the normal form too? i don't understand the Question.
the normal form gets better too.

[cute_moth.npc]

I would like to give a shout out to Kunai and Dual Toxocyst incarnon ~ they both have a lot more power but still have sort of a similar theme or feel as the originals when transformed and it's nice!

Edited May 27, 2023 by cute_moth.npc

[TARINunit9]

If there is going to be harm it's from the Riven disposition dropping. And since I gave up on Rivens YEARS ago there's still no harm on my end

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Most of the incarnons I've tried are "the same thing but extra"

Strun is a shotty, shottys got spread for hitting multiple enemies. The rocket launcher hits multiple enemies, at greater range. Bonus points with multishot and -accuracy, the rockets spread like a shotty. 

Bronco is just the same, but more. Shotty, With bullet link? So even shottier 

Dual Toxocyst gets fire rate buff on headshots. The incarnon is the same idea but turned to 11, get headshots to become fast automatic guns, get more headshots for even more fire rate buff

Burston, just becomes automatic, kinda "DIY" burst because you control the burst, short triggerpull for smol burst or triggerhold for big burst. 

Lex, ehh. Fire rate drops but gets big AoE hmm, I can't defend that one. They're both Big Slow Bangers, but the *feel* is too different, going from aiming for dudes to just pointing inna direction 

Vasto, I feel like a cowboy with a big iron on his hip. The 6round Burst is like Biggest Iron. Its a Cowboy Gun, and the super cool 6 round burst is Still Cowboy Gun

 

Also, on the ones where the incarnon is "too different" it stays in base form 90 percent of the time, because I prefer how it behaves base form.

OR I enjoy the incarnon so much, it gets drained quickly and I'm already back to using base form again in quick time 

OR I use the different modes "for different things" I still use the base mode for the same thing, that hasn't changed. I use the new mode for "same thing but 11" or new tthing. Struns rocket launcher can't be used point blank (usually) so the shotty mode is still gonna be used up close

Edited May 28, 2023 by (XBOX)CaligulaTwily

[Voltage]

I could go into a rant about how this disrupts the fragile ladder of how DE has progressed weapons for players, but I just want to throw out an idea that is neither mine or new, but would make Incarnon Genesis not feel like the only avenue for old weapons feel fresh (Riven Mods failed at this so I won't even mention them in that regard).

Most weapons in this game share similarities and can be boiled down into different families. Lex Prime, Magnus Prime, Pandero Prime, Vasto Prime, etc., Akstiletto Prime, Aksomati Prime, Afuris Prime, Dex Furis, Wraith Twin Vipers, Prisma Twin Gremlins, etc., Dread, Paris, Daikyu, etc.. You get the point. Players go for more powerful versions in each family, and DE has tried over the years to add gimmicks that give an edge over "normal" or more vanilla weapons. Nataruk has "the perfect shot" (now added with Cinta), Kuva Bramma is functionally a cluster-Tonkor, Catchmoon a mini-Arca Plasmor, etc.

What I really want DE to explore is Transmog using the Helminth system. Players would be much happier if they could use the most optimal choices within weapon classes, but could use the models, designs, skins, and reload animations of all the weapons and deluxe/Tennogen skins the game has added over the last decade. Such an undertaking would also encourage players to re-grind weapons they may not enjoy to "feed" to Helminth to earn their skin (including farming for duplicate Prime gear which would stimulate a saturated part of the game), or even feel less bad when they need to lose something for slot concerns. In this way, players would have to burn a weapon, but they could hold onto that Mastery progression past a profile checkmark by having the ability to use the model, associated skins, and custom reloads on a similar weapon.

Obviously you wouldn't be able to use every skin on everything, but it would be nice if in theory your Kuva Bramma could look like Nataruk, Lex Prime like Lato Vandal, or Dual Keres Prime like Prisma Dual Cleavers. The other upside here is that for things like Riven Mods, or high-end investment on weapons, a player can be more inclined to sink heavy amounts of Forma or own Rivens per weapon family instead of having duplicate clutter in the form of similar weapons. Collectors will be collectors, but with limited inventory space, limited Riven capacity, and limited interest in weapons, you could fill most weapon families in the game, and then just customize those one or two invested weapons with a Transmog system to be named, look, feel, and perform the way you want them too. Does DE really need to add a different weapon onto an existing one to get players interested in old content? I don't completely believe so. Sure, there's some fun and novelty in Lex Prime getting a massive stat buff and then turning into pseudo-Catchmoon 2, but I think DE could have achieved similar results for players through Transmog. The Genesis system feels more like they added entirely new weapons with new stats that re-use old weapons as a vessel. Transmog accomplishes the same thing. It also allows DE to not feel forced to have gimmicks on every new weapon or upgrade, because there is still value from the strongest portion of this game: the creative teams (art and sound). If a new weapon comes out, but isn't a smash hit, that skin could be applied to a more useful weapon in that class that sees more usage.

Some weapons have incredible aesthetics but the weapon just isn't your cup of tea or exciting to use. Euphona Prime is one example of this kind of weapon. Applying the Euphona Prime model and reload/holster animation to a weapon like Lex Prime or Magnus Prime would make the weapon feel even more badass than it already is from a Incarnon Genesis. The same could be said about many other weapons.

Thanks for listening to my TED Talk on how to "breath" new life into old gear without teetering the boat on totally changing the characteristics of an old weapon for the sake of relevance.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Voltage

[ReddyDisco]

Garbage weapons are getting good, win win

[0_The_F00l]

i partially feel that way , this is not for all weapons though.

Weapons that "stick to their theme" do still get a decent enough upgrade to their non incarnon forms and can maintain the same general play style - most of the melee weapons are fundamentally still the same weapon and are better due to the incarnon in every way possible (with maybe some bleeding that may happen due to the riven changes) - they can run with the top contenders now but are still the same weapons i loved.

Weapons that become something else completely on the other hand do make me feel a little off , the lex , atomos (debatable?) and torid are just ... not quite right in my opinion as the base weapons just become "stat sticks" for those that exclusively want to use the incarnon form. The strun is the only one that i feel is still in a reasonable spot despite having a completely different mode (maybe the furis too but dont have it nor have i seen it covered extensively).

And weapons that do change but are still mostly recognizable with similar mechanics are subjective , the soma , dual toxocyst and boltor for example are fine either way. The burston on the other hand feels a little too generic in incarnon form.

 

I have not used all weapons of course , i can only talk about ones that i personally used or that were covered greatly by others.

End of the day it is still subjective but i feel its an overall win , and for once despite having some powercreep i do not really see that many incarnon weapon users - maybe the need to get headshots is enough of a deterrent. or maybe its too many hoops for now.

Edited May 28, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[SneakyErvin]

I dont think buffing the base form would help except in a few cases, where the current buffs from the incarnon perks are already enough, like on Atomos that is practically Knukor 2.0 with all perks unlocked. But for guns like Furis, Braton, Burston, Lex, Lato and so on there is nothing a buff to the base form could do to make them useful, they'd just be the same old weapons with potentially more damage.

DE likely went with genesis due to one thing, not adding more weapons to the trash pile, and instead move weapons out of it. DE could have added brand new incarnon weapons that did the same as the genesis weapons, but it would just add more weapons to the game and more weapons to the trash pile. Now with genesis they take weapons out of that pile and put something else in there.

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The burston on the other hand feels a little too generic in incarnon form.

But it is sooooo good! Honestly never thought I would enjoy Burston, a gun I practically havent touched since I leveled it to 30 back in uhm 2017 or something. I mean I hated it so much so I still recall exactly which map I leveled it on, which oddly enough wasnt Hydron.

[0_The_F00l]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

But it is sooooo good! Honestly never thought I would enjoy Burston, a gun I practically havent touched since I leveled it to 30 back in uhm 2017 or something. I mean I hated it so much so I still recall exactly which map I leveled it on, which oddly enough wasnt Hydron.

What's the difference between burston and braton (and their incarnon forms) ? And why would you pick one over the other ?

[SneakyErvin]

49 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What's the difference between burston and braton (and their incarnon forms) ? And why would you pick one over the other ?

Burston has innate punch through from the incarnon perk that doesnt eat the AoE, it also has 600 ammo and a fire rate of 20. And as far as I've been able to tell, each body directly hit by the traveling bullet will produce an explosion, similar to how Amprex/Knukor/Tcycron works with PT. The gun stacks heat and slash quickly with munitions slotted.

Braton has 200 ammo and a fire rate of 5.67 and cannot mod for PT unless DE have recently changed something with the interaction between explosions and modded PT. The difference for Braton is that it comes with innate slash on the direct hit and has a 3m AoE instead of 2m, and more forgiving fall off.

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by SneakyErvin