Can DE JUST MAKE ABANDONING LICHES AN OPTION?!

[Skoomaseller]

32 minutes ago, deucich said:

It's not better understanding that OP asked for. And it isn't realistic thing to get. People do not look into problems they haven't encountered yet. Any beforehand text warning you will throw at players would be just ignored. You can look at all those threads about quitting The New War quest.

if there is a warning then that is on the player. that is not the case here, no? 

I would also say this whole thread is a result of OP not being well-informed of a certain gameplay mechanic. So asking for better understanding is the point here.

32 minutes ago, deucich said:

It's less rng than most other things in this game. You can get a needed gun in a finite number of attempts (19 at max) and you can max this gun out in 10 fusions at worst.

the extreme variance in your given example is exactly what I am talking about, though. it's one of the biggest RNG gates we have.

32 minutes ago, deucich said:

The water can be cleaner, the sun can be shinier and we can be younger.  What else?

Huh?

32 minutes ago, deucich said:

I was addressing abandoning function and\or MR requirments.

the MR lock does not need to be so high, lol.

However I personally don't think abandoning a lich as a mechanic is a good idea, IF we get better ingame info about them/the mechanics of lich hunting. Agree w/ you there I suppose.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[Skoomaseller]

19 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

I said what I think and walked away

 

20 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

then I just replied who tagged me.

so you didn't walk away 🤣

[ReddyDisco]

I had the benefit of already being high mr and access to almost every piece of gear available when liches were added, couldn't imagine having to do lvl 5 lich with base boltor without mods and game knowledge. An opt out for new players would definitely be a good idea, or MR locking.

[TeaHands]

I don't see the harm in being able to once a week pay the Riven Lady some Kuva/Granum Crowns and a Requiem Relic to send a ghost to kill the Lich/Sister. Especially if DE won't spell out how to engage in this "Nemesis" system. 

Only reason I knew how this system worked before engaging with it was from following Devstreams, I really wouldn't expect someone new to the system to stop and Google every little thing this game throws at you sporadically. Because there is a novelty I and assume others enjoy with this game just slapping you in the face with a random new mechanic to figure out like a puzzle.

The way the system is presented in game is pretty close to how event bosses like The Stalker or Grustraag 3 show up. But this boss they throw at you has railjack, a roulette boss key, and full on damage attenuation if you're not careful. Which is batsh*t insane to throw at a player unknowingly cruising through the main story.

[RafMatador22]

22 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

 

so you didn't walk away 🤣

I referred to the first comment I made on this post, before I even knew of your existence, friend. I just gave my opinion and left.

[Merrcenary]

6 часов назад, Cerikus сказал:

Liches are NEVER explained ANYWHERE (apart from a small tutorial box that accessible after you create it, which is too late).

but somehow thousands of players deal with them without problems and only a few scream about how they suffer and how punished they are because of liches🥴

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

40 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

but somehow thousands of players deal with them without problems and only a few scream about how they suffer and how punished they are because of liches🥴

Not sure how much you actually play, but this is voiced extremely often in alliance chats. Many people have a problem with how it works including having no idea a railjack is required. The elitism in this thread is mind boggling. Imagine actually wanting to help newer players, I know what a terrible idea.

Edited June 13, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I am heavily sympathetic to such situations, and not inherently opposed to some sort of abandon Lich system, but I also don't think this specifically is that objectively dire of a situation. Though it does spark several contentious issues around game design. To stay on Liches though, how much is perception and frustration, and internal pressures versus reality of a situation? For example, you have a Lich now, okay, well what happens if you ignore it? On that planet (Earth now, by design) some of your resources are stolen occasionally, and you get a pop up with the Lich taunting and mocking you. How negative an experience is that?

I did remember reading one persons complaints a few years ago, about how they felt frustrated and like a failure and embarrassed and angry that their Lich mocked them, for being so weak, and like... ehh. I felt really bad for them. I really don't think thats the intent and design behind those Lichs pop ups and taunts. Like to me, they are clearly meant to be silly, humorous and a bit goofy. For the most part, now and then their might be a combination of Lich personality cross with elemental variation (certain lines can be determined by such), that sounds pretty epic in a serious and intimidating sort of way, but I just thought the person with the issue (that specific person) may have had some other insecurities colouring the issue. Finding the pop ups annoying or repetitive? Can understand more, as a deeply insulting attack on ones character and worth? Uh... Then you have the resources being taken, its usually not that many. Potentially frustrating? Like maybe if a blueprint or resource you really needed, but its not like its stealing your Archon Tau or anything. 

So I don't really view it as being that especially punishing, unless a player perceives it as being a bigger issue than that. Which is also fair. Like if you get one, its natural you might jump to more conclusions not knowing more. Will my Lich start to steal more if I ignore it? Will it get more powerful? Will it show up in any of my normal missions and kill me or something? Who knows? Without knowing more, you might not know. So yeah, sincerely, you are fine ignoring it. 

It might be a personality thing, but when I first came across a larvaeling, I didn't know what it was, even though I had heard a bit about Liches at that point. If I didn't know what something was... well, its just not in my nature to think "I'll hold down the button on this one enemy I know nothing about, after a message I don't understand", I don't interpret the game telling you to do that. Again though, not saying that as a negative judgement. I had a friend who was around the same level as me, totally see a weapon above their head and wanted it and thought they were getting it for free who ended up with a Lich they couldn't beat solo. 

I strongly oppose the idea of Kuva weapons being MR20 and above. They aren't that punishing if you accidentally create one. If you do know what you are doing, and are willing to learn and come up with strategies to fight an uphill battle, you can be rewarded with some of the best weapons in the game. So you'd be shutting out players having the choice and option. Also not all accidental creations are negative experiences either. My friend regretted it a bit, but we asked around and got some more experienced players who were friendly and happy to help out, and made some new Warframe friends, and had some tough but fun experiences. Not invaliding or denying that all people should have positive experiences only, but sometimes your experiences mirror your attitude. If you preload yourself with negative hyperbole, most things will tend to suck. That can also suck if you try to be positive too, not to discount that either, but can depend on the situation. 

Like I have personally helped out a lot of newer players unprepared for Liches, and often many of them started out worried or frustrated, but by the end, they all have seemed pretty happy, excited, relieved, grateful, and semi eager to tackle Liches again, once they gain a few more levels/progress (sometimes they lack Requiem Cards, Railjack, etc). 

Like I said at the beginning though, I'm not against improvements. Maybe there could be an intro quest of sorts, so players are better informed about the degree of challenge and issues they will be faced with, so they can have more knowledge when making the decision to have a Lich. After all, Liches have already gone through a lot of refinements and improvements, many I thought were sorely needed (the pity system for weapon RNG for example). I just also don't think such changes are vital either. 

Though, I am also of the mindset that having to look outside the game for info isn't inherently a negative thing, so that may play to that. For those with a general belief that a game needs to be self contained, they may place more importance on in game systems being refined in that way, which is totally fair and valid. 

[Vahenir]

One way to do this would just be to add some abandon option but put it on a timer. Like to abandon a lich you need to buy something from, say, iron wake, which is only available once per week or even once per month. At least it'd get those that need it the option of removing the lich, though if they then go and get another immediately after they will be stuck with it. But at that point its on them.

[Skoomaseller]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I am heavily sympathetic to such situations, and not inherently opposed to some sort of abandon Lich system, but I also don't think this specifically is that objectively dire of a situation. Though it does spark several contentious issues around game design. To stay on Liches though, how much is perception and frustration, and internal pressures versus reality of a situation? For example, you have a Lich now, okay, well what happens if you ignore it? On that planet (Earth now, by design) some of your resources are stolen occasionally, and you get a pop up with the Lich taunting and mocking you. How negative an experience is that?

I did remember reading one persons complaints a few years ago, about how they felt frustrated and like a failure and embarrassed and angry that their Lich mocked them, for being so weak, and like... ehh. I felt really bad for them. I really don't think thats the intent and design behind those Lichs pop ups and taunts. Like to me, they are clearly meant to be silly, humorous and a bit goofy. For the most part, now and then their might be a combination of Lich personality cross with elemental variation (certain lines can be determined by such), that sounds pretty epic in a serious and intimidating sort of way, but I just thought the person with the issue (that specific person) may have had some other insecurities colouring the issue. Finding the pop ups annoying or repetitive? Can understand more, as a deeply insulting attack on ones character and worth? Uh... Then you have the resources being taken, its usually not that many. Potentially frustrating? Like maybe if a blueprint or resource you really needed, but its not like its stealing your Archon Tau or anything. 

So I don't really view it as being that especially punishing, unless a player perceives it as being a bigger issue than that. Which is also fair. Like if you get one, its natural you might jump to more conclusions not knowing more. Will my Lich start to steal more if I ignore it? Will it get more powerful? Will it show up in any of my normal missions and kill me or something? Who knows? Without knowing more, you might not know. So yeah, sincerely, you are fine ignoring it. 

It might be a personality thing, but when I first came across a larvaeling, I didn't know what it was, even though I had heard a bit about Liches at that point. If I didn't know what something was... well, its just not in my nature to think "I'll hold down the button on this one enemy I know nothing about, after a message I don't understand", I don't interpret the game telling you to do that. Again though, not saying that as a negative judgement. I had a friend who was around the same level as me, totally see a weapon above their head and wanted it and thought they were getting it for free who ended up with a Lich they couldn't beat solo. 

I strongly oppose the idea of Kuva weapons being MR20 and above. They aren't that punishing if you accidentally create one. If you do know what you are doing, and are willing to learn and come up with strategies to fight an uphill battle, you can be rewarded with some of the best weapons in the game. So you'd be shutting out players having the choice and option. Also not all accidental creations are negative experiences either. My friend regretted it a bit, but we asked around and got some more experienced players who were friendly and happy to help out, and made some new Warframe friends, and had some tough but fun experiences. Not invaliding or denying that all people should have positive experiences only, but sometimes your experiences mirror your attitude. If you preload yourself with negative hyperbole, most things will tend to suck. That can also suck if you try to be positive too, not to discount that either, but can depend on the situation. 

Like I have personally helped out a lot of newer players unprepared for Liches, and often many of them started out worried or frustrated, but by the end, they all have seemed pretty happy, excited, relieved, grateful, and semi eager to tackle Liches again, once they gain a few more levels/progress (sometimes they lack Requiem Cards, Railjack, etc). 

Like I said at the beginning though, I'm not against improvements. Maybe there could be an intro quest of sorts, so players are better informed about the degree of challenge and issues they will be faced with, so they can have more knowledge when making the decision to have a Lich. After all, Liches have already gone through a lot of refinements and improvements, many I thought were sorely needed (the pity system for weapon RNG for example). I just also don't think such changes are vital either. 

Though, I am also of the mindset that having to look outside the game for info isn't inherently a negative thing, so that may play to that. For those with a general belief that a game needs to be self contained, they may place more importance on in game systems being refined in that way, which is totally fair and valid. 

i think the biggest thing honestly is the lack of transparency regarding the whole nemesis system, how it works etc

looking outside the game for info is not a bad thing, but the problem is that the game itself does not have this info. it should have it in the first place.

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Creating obstructions, so player cannot accidentally do something they have no idea it exists doesn't fix the problem that they have no idea it exists.

See, I don't agree that part's actually a problem -- not, at least, as long as we still think Stalker is totally fine game design

Creating a Lich doesn't actually cause any problems for you. It sits around on Earth sucking up 5% of your Ferrite, big whoop. This is not an issue, especially since they're supposed to be your big nemesis during their short but extremely cocky lives, goading you on to fighting them. And they pop up out of nowhere before you know what you're dealing with? Again, you can't complain about that if you're not complaining about Stalker too

The real problem is, a new player who gets goaded will soon find themselves with a lvl110 unstoppable tank they aren't equipped to fight. Stalker is at least scaled to be killable, Liches have no such protection

Creating a Lich before you know what you're doing? Not a problem. Leveling up a Lich before you even know what you just did? THAT'S the problem, that's the part that should be disabled for new players

[MqToasty]

18 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

i think the biggest thing honestly is the lack of transparency regarding the whole nemesis system, how it works etc

looking outside the game for info is not a bad thing, but the problem is that the game itself does not have this info. it should have it in the first place.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure the obtuseness is by design.  Just look at everything else in the game -- the made up words, the strange concepts...  DE intentionally injected a ton of "alienness" and mystery into the game, in order to pique our interest and imagination, and it works!

But if DE wants players to be intrigued and explore, then I think @Cerikus put it best with this comment:

7 hours ago, Cerikus said:

If the game is unable to explain itself, it needs to provide a way to fix mistakes a player makes, because they are unaware. 

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

10 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

i think the biggest thing honestly is the lack of transparency regarding the whole nemesis system, how it works etc

looking outside the game for info is not a bad thing, but the problem is that the game itself does not have this info. it should have it in the first place.

 

Valid and fair. Its what annoyed me about of my favourite games of all times. In the original Final Fantasy XII, there was a powerful weapon that you could only get if you... didn't open very specific chests elsewhere in the game, including some early game areas. You wouldn't get the weapon until much much later. I think I read it in a games magazine, and like... Why? It was so annoying to me, how was I suppose to know which chests could or couldn't be opened, and that if I accidentally open one, I wouldn't be able to get the best weapon in the game? Let me see, released roughly 2006? I didn't have home internet, I had to find out more info on break from a school computer lol. Was very annoying. At the same time, I didn't really mind having to look up a guide on how to fuse demons in a Megami Tensei or how to unlock Ultimate weapons in some other Final Fantasy games. So personally my views were a bit more complex and nuance when games lacked transparency. Sometimes they were even favourable, it really depended on other variables. 

So Warframe having a lot of systems without adequate transparency or having degrees of opacity, can likewise range to myself. Sometimes I think it should always be clear and transparent. Like if you are dealing with Plat or monetary purposes. Other times I find it more subjective. Sometimes, I actually like it being a bit vague and difficult, where i have to think a bit more, look up info, cross reference that with something else, accidentally discover a whole new system, reflecting on my own thoughts about whether  like or dislike some of the new info and systems I just learned, how they developed and so on.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

10 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

To be honest, I'm pretty sure the obtuseness is by design.  Just look at everything else in the game -- the made up words, the strange concepts...  DE intentionally injected a ton of "alienness" and mystery into the game, in order to pique our interest and imagination, and it works!

But if DE wants players to be intrigued and explore, then I think @Cerikus put it best with this comment:

 

I strongly disagree this was their intentions for every mechanic (even basic ones) that are unexplained. It's just simply bad game design.

Edited June 13, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[Circle_of_Psi]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

 DE said there was a plan to implement hiring Red Veil to take out your lich, but that was apparently scrapped when they decided showing you the weapon you’ll get was enough. it doesn’t address the issue of Liches being very new player unfriendly.

8 hours ago, Rixuel said:

By not making that option, DE is shooting themselves in the feet (DE losing player retention)

With the possibility of Infested Liches, I highly doute DE will care to implement this, Numbers and Profit is what is on the table right now and DE could lose that sweet dollar if Liches can be removed/killed easily 

At least that's my guess

Edited June 13, 2023 by Circle_of_Psi

[MqToasty]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I strongly disagree this was their intentions for everything that is unexplained. It's just bad game design.

I respect your opinion and you could very well be right that it was unintentional.  As neither of us work for DE, we are both guessing at how things came to be this way.  But I will posit that:

1. Things have always been obtuse in this game.  So much so that I find it hard to believe it was accidental.  Look at all the weird vocabulary, new languages, strange transmissions, ARG events, hidden collectibles dripping lore -- it actually took effort to make things this weird, and it cannot be explained away by just laziness or incompetence.

2. The game has been incredibly successful in the past decade of its existence.  Now there are definitely a ton of reasons for its success, and perhaps having better-explained mechanisms would have made it even more successful.  But clearly the devs realized that they got something right, and continued to run with it.

So I'm not saying that the game is a role model for good game design, but it does seem to me that there was some intent in making it less straightforward.

[MqToasty]

24 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

With the possibility of Infested Liches, I highly doute DE will care to implement this, Numbers and Profit is what is on the table right now and DE could lose that sweet dollar if Liches can be removed/killed easily 

At least that's my guess

Well, I do think there are ways to implement a Lich-B-Gone system without losing too much engagement.  Either timegate it (Palladino: "The assassins are still recovering from their injuries.  Come back again in 7 days"), require specific resources like syndicate standing, or maybe even both.

Personally, my preferred solution would be to have the player apologize to and bribe the lich directly ("Are you sure you want to abandon all dignity and beg the lich to leave you alone?").  Show a cutscene of the player groveling at the lich's feet as the lich does a Captain Morgan over the player.  Make the cutscene drawn out and unskippable.  Then pause lich spawns for 7 days for that player to prevent ephemera farming.  😂

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

9 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

it is kinda crazy, I hear so many low MR people having problems w/ their liches. "how did you get it to level 5?"

 

TIP for New Players

No Matter how much the other guys in public matchmaking egg you on, Do Not give in to peer pressure and stab your Lich unless are Ready. Doing so causes them to Rank Up, which makes all the missions much harder. Ultimately slowing your progress.

The Reason they want you to stab, is because the Stab Failure awards a 'consolation prize' of 10 murmur progress; which they want to leech off at your expense.

Instead, focus on systematically clearing All Nodes of the planet, and gaining murmur progress via low-level Thralls. If you don't speed run the mission, up to 10 Thralls can spawn (10 murmur). This gains you progress towards learning the Requiem symbols, without increasing Difficulty too fast.

Once you've cleared 2-3 planets you should have revealed all 3 symbols and can begin stab attempts. But don't do any stabs until you have the Requiem Symbols. !Thralls are easier to farm at rank1 than rank5!

 

[Genitive]

They should just up the mastery rank requirement to unlock liches. Currently, you can get it as early as MR5. Move it to MR10 or maybe higher; after completing the mastery test, a cutscene for liches plays and players get a mail regarding them with a tutorial on how to deal with everything.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I didn't really mind having to look up a guide on how to fuse demons in a Megami Tensei 

Older MegaTen games (Kyuuyaku through Nocturne) are designed around the player having a pencil and paper on hand. It's why they let you preview Fusion, so you can write down what makes what, to say nothing of drawing your own map to escape the truly evil level design they used to have. I'd like to contrast this attitude with newer MegaTen games, and with Warframe

It's telling that SMT4 just tells you what each monster's fusion recipe is, and SMT5 even gives you the "reverse compendium fusion." They COULD make you rely on reference material now that the Internet age makes it so much easier, but instead they've done away with needing to use reference material at all. Just fuse your demons with no fuss and get back to dungeon crawling.

Warframe sort of has the opposite problem. The information is technically in the game, but the way it tells you is kinda bad and doesn't stick in the player's mind. Forma tells you what it does ("polarize a mod slot") but doesn't convey how that helps you. You really have to knuckle down and observe how the little green and red symbols interact with numbers on your mods to learn what a "polarized slot" is and how it helps you... Or you can just read the Wiki. Forma is far from the only example, it's all over the place. Liches and parazon mods are technically explained, but not in a way I could possibly call good design

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Older MegaTen games (Kyuuyaku through Nocturne) are designed around the player having a pencil and paper on hand. It's why they let you preview Fusion, so you can write down what makes what, to say nothing of drawing your own map to escape the truly evil level design they used to have. I'd like to contrast this attitude with newer MegaTen games, and with Warframe

It's telling that SMT4 just tells you what each monster's fusion recipe is, and SMT5 even gives you the "reverse compendium fusion." They COULD make you rely on reference material now that the Internet age makes it so much easier, but instead they've done away with needing to use reference material at all. Just fuse your demons with no fuss and get back to dungeon crawling.

Warframe sort of has the opposite problem. The information is technically in the game, but the way it tells you is kinda bad and doesn't stick in the player's mind. Forma tells you what it does ("polarize a mod slot") but doesn't convey how that helps you. You really have to knuckle down and observe how the little green and red symbols interact with numbers on your mods to learn what a "polarized slot" is and how it helps you... Or you can just read the Wiki. Forma is far from the only example, it's all over the place. Liches and parazon mods are technically explained, but not in a way I could possibly call good design

 

Totally yeah, I still have a lot of my old notebooks on various video games with written down info, systems, variations. I vaguely remember Nocturne the best, and it had something with the whole moon cycle as well or something, because you could preview, but there were other factors to consider too, and so on. Oh and Vagrant story had an area that that would loop on itself unless you kept track of directions and where you went. Having to keep track of my inventory in FFIX with Fusions... 

I still think it depends. Like fighting games, is one subject that I have seen what I think are really good changes as far as transparency and assisting the player. Like some of the newer games tutorial modes, just blow away past fighting games approaches on informing and making accessible techniques, systems, and becoming more proficient at the game. I have heard really good things about the latest Street Fighter in this respect too and some other games in the last few years. Like discussing terms, trying to create familiarity. Oh and its there for those that want it, but you don't necessarily need to to have fun as well, because they have other systems to simply a lot of other mechanics that may seem intimidating. 

I remember when Monster Hunter World found its success met with a lot of people finding aspects of it confusing, with some not realising it actually improved a lot over past games in those regards. I think sometimes, if possible, the "best" or "ideal" solution is trying to find out ways or solutions to appeal to different types of people. Just because of people naturally have different preferences, habits, time constraints, interests, etc and ways they can or want to interact with systems. For example, even though I can like some systems being obscure/obtuse, I didn't really get into Warframe until lockdowns from the pandemic happened... I didn't have a lot of time for it prior, and even its something I can enjoy... It can be time consuming. I imagine a lot of people won't find joy in that, because then it becomes tedious, archaic and laborious, which is fair too. 

[American]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)Affective64 said:

It is mind-boggolingly ret_rded how newer players like me are punished so hard for something we didn't know we were getting ourselves into. I've never done higher-level content or liches because i never felt like it was worth my time, so, of course, i stabbed the Kuva Larvling thing because it TOLD ME TO and now i am being punished for SOMETHING THATS NOT MY FU__ING FAULT. DE, can you just make your game better please? Having the ability to abandon liches or making liches MR20+ Exclusives or something would make the game so much better and i feel that thousands of players are also agreeing with me on this. Hell, just telling us what we're actually getting into with like a pop-up screen is also a good idea. No players actively want to have poorly designed missions and hyperleveled content shoved down their throats, i don't care if i'm losing what the Lich stole just let me abandon it, I don't care about it or it's weapon. What i'm trying to say with this rant is let lower-level players (MR15 and below) opt out of Kuva Liches, when they didn't know what they were getting into.

Jumping onto the forums and cursing out the developers isn't going to help your case at all, actually

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

They added the feature that makes it so you have to hold down the button to claim the weapon in the first place, but I get it and a way to get rid of it is a good idea.

 

[bad4youLT]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Affective64 said:

I've never done higher-level content or liches because i never felt like it was worth my time

 

This might be of help if you take your time to watch it 

 

 

[(XBOX)Affective64]

22 hours ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Could someone pay off Red Veil to send assassins after my tenno? I'm curious how tough these Red Veil guys are if they could take out a lich. I hope I'd get to fight a thousand dudes at once (because I can't imagine any number of Red Veil guys being able to slaughter a lich, if a Tenno is having problems)

Imagine going on a nature walk at the Drifter's camp with the lowest Red Veil standing and looking in distance to see thousands of chargers jumping through the hills hunting you down

"That lich was child's play, now it's your time tenno"

Edited June 13, 2023 by (XBOX)Affective64