The price of Heirloom skins is incredibly disappointing.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Here comes the difficult part though, your own logic. If "Accusing people of things also (Doesn't) magically make them true", then what are you doing here trying to lecture someone about it?

 

I don't remember accusing you of anything. its generally not in my habit to accuse people of anything. Not negatively at least. If you think I accused you of something, please feel free to mention it, or quote me. What I mostly attempted to do was make an appeal. A sincere heartfelt request that some of your better points can stand alone without some of the other bits. My intent is not to lecture. I can recognise seeming that way though, in which case I apologise if it seemed like I was trying to lecture you. 

 

6 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

So what are you trying to defend people from

 

No single individual, and all of us, yourself included. Topics like these can be a bit fatiguing and tiring even when people understand each others arguments and perspectives well, because it involves having to consider others preferences, life styles, and experiences and giving them decent sincerity and consideration even if they differ or oppose our own. When you add hostility, passive aggression and mud flinging, (as well as certain subconscious processes that often twist and warp others views for our own biases) and talking down to people, it often just creates more general animosity and puts more people on edge and feeling justified in doing the same to the "other side". I remember this vividly with the Regal Aya discourse too. Some people went so far they started making threats to individuals Devs, then some people tried to use that as ammo for their arguments they were right, and when things go that way, it can be hard for people to remember to treat each other with a decent amount of base level consideration and respect.

You seem like an articulate, thoughtful sort, so I thought maybe you were just frustrated or having a bad day, and could make an appeal to you, the sort I might hope someone else might make for me, if I ever leaned on certain arguments (Like I am well studied/educated in a lot of fields, not game development, but yeah), but I also know, telling people they have no idea, but I do because I am in those fields rarely ever works. Even if it could be true. However if I take less of a hostile attitude and try to impart such knowledge in a more patient and friendly way, they are usually more receptive and willing to change their stance. 

 

18 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Whats in it for you if I decide to be less honest and factual and instead go full-on Compromised and Overly-Humbled?

 

I don't think that honesty and sincerity are incompatible with being considerate and patient with others, nor that you need to compromise your views or personality to be more chill with other people, even those that may disagree with you on some things. Which I mean in general to everyone myself included. 

[ShogunGunshow]

8 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

To make you feel better earlier I saw a reddit post that's against this heirloom skin that's highly upvoted which made me want to look around here about this again in this forum.

Considering the volume of threads the forum managers have merged into this one, I think it's a safe bet they're aware of the negative feedback.

Edited August 28, 2023 by ShogunGunshow

[MaxTunnerX]

21 hours ago, Alpha-Braten said:

Your view at the founders is so toxic. Realy sad. 

Whether hes toxic or not, it remains a fact that most players have no chance to get GAMEPLAY INFLUENCING ITEMS that they also need to progress. It doesnt even come close to some stupid cosmetics that are just visual. And Im shocked so many people are triggered by overpriced comestics rather than by this. Also DE are getting the same backlash blizzard got for totally ruining diablo 4 just like their other games, like what the hell? Is one monetization problem about cosmetics enough to spam the forums and call strikes and stuff? So wild.

Edited August 28, 2023 by MaxTunnerX

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

16 minutes ago, Vortex said:

I paid the full price for the exclusivity, if they want to change something so the founder pack should return too. End.

 

Don't many of the Supporter packs often see a price drop near when they are about to retire permanently? I can remember a few have, like the Deimos Supporter packs, having 40%, 30% etc discounts depending on what tier it was. 

Oh, unless, your point here is one intended to show the flaws with such tactics. My apologies, its hard to tell.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

I don't remember accusing you of anything. its generally not in my habit to accuse people of anything. Not negatively at least. If you think I accused you of something, please feel free to mention it, or quote me. What I mostly attempted to do was make an appeal. A sincere heartfelt request that some of your better points can stand alone without some of the other bits. My intent is not to lecture. I can recognise seeming that way though, in which case I apologise if it seemed like I was trying to lecture you. 

 

 

No single individual, and all of us, yourself included. Topics like these can be a bit fatiguing and tiring even when people understand each others arguments and perspectives well, because it involves having to consider others preferences, life styles, and experiences and giving them decent sincerity and consideration even if they differ or oppose our own. When you add hostility, passive aggression and mud flinging, (as well as certain subconscious processes that often twist and warp others views for our own biases) and talking down to people, it often just creates more general animosity and puts more people on edge and feeling justified in doing the same to the "other side". I remember this vividly with the Regal Aya discourse too. Some people went so far they started making threats to individuals Devs, then some people tried to use that as ammo for their arguments they were right, and when things go that way, it can be hard for people to remember to treat each other with a decent amount of base level consideration and respect.

You seem like an articulate, thoughtful sort, so I thought maybe you were just frustrated or having a bad day, and could make an appeal to you, the sort I might hope someone else might make for me, if I ever leaned on certain arguments (Like I am well studied/educated in a lot of fields, not game development, but yeah), but I also know, telling people they have no idea, but I do because I am in those fields rarely ever works. Even if it could be true. However if I take less of a hostile attitude and try to impart such knowledge in a more patient and friendly way, they are usually more receptive and willing to change their stance. 

 

 

I don't think that honesty and sincerity are incompatible with being considerate and patient with others, nor that you need to compromise your views or personality to be more chill with other people, even those that may disagree with you on some things. Which I mean in general to everyone myself included. 

Aaaaand we're back to half a Forum page. I'll address the first part considering thats all the space you should have needed in order to get any point ever conceived across.

Normally this is the part where I'd say "yeah you've managed to completely misunderstand the question so your answer doesn't apply", but then apparently that observation/correction would be branded an accusation. So I'll just say that you need to read the question again.

 

As for the rest I'll happily look into, when it's reasonable.

[PublikDomain]

20 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

To make you feel better earlier I saw a reddit post that's against this heirloom skin that's highly upvoted which made me want to look around here about this again in this forum.

Most of the sub's Heirloom posts have been resoundingly negative.

• The new Heirloom cosmetics are NOT available for plat, and can only be bought with real money. What does everyone think of this? (2,263)
• Let me address some of the arguments I keep seeing regarding the Heirloom Collection. (1,484)
• For the same price as the new Heirloom Collection, you could buy Baldur's Gate 3 and still save money (1,460)
• The warframe heirlooom collection it's a shameful demonstration of how NOT this game made it to 10 years. (1,205)
• The Heirloom Collection is the worst, most predatory thing DE has done so far, and the worst thing they could do on their most important day of the year, along with such an important celebration. (1,165)
• DE, attaching a bunch of aya to a skin bundle just to inflate the price is not cool. (1,149)
• This absolutely absurd. There is no reason why these skins should be locked to a bundle. Especially since most Tenno don’t care to much for what’s in the bundle other than the cosmetics. (864)
• The Heirloom Collection is Available, Money Only. (820)

Maybe there are people defending the packs in the comments, but the top comments are all negative as well.

Edited August 28, 2023 by PublikDomain

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

18 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

To make you feel better earlier I saw a reddit post that's against this heirloom skin that's highly upvoted which made me want to look around here about this again in this forum.

 

In my experience, and to my perception (which may be flawed, because I don't check every thread on Reddit frequently), Reddit seemed as up in arms and against the Heirloom pricing, as this website. I actually felt like they were more against and negative than these Forums. Just that Reddits format can... well depending on how you use it, big issues can fade from the front page. Also, people can get weary of others repeating the same arguments, or people chasing upvotes. 

Sorted by the past week, almost half the top twenty threads are critical of the Heirloom pricing. It hasn't even been a week either, and considering Tennocon was also this week, thats fairly significant. I don't think its as much critical feedback and negativity as Regal Aya, but AFAIK not many creators have weighed in too much, but its possible this might blow up a bit more as well, the same way Regal Aya did, because its really not that consumer friendly. There have been some other games with similar controversies recently too, SFVI and Ninja Turtle stuff. 

Like if a channel like The Jimquisition covers something like this, that and I suspect Reddit will get daily threads until its addressed. Or Mods encourage them to use existing threads. 

[Stafelund]

17 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Most of the sub's Heirloom posts have been resoundingly negative.

• The new Heirloom cosmetics are NOT available for plat, and can only be bought with real money. What does everyone think of this? (2,263)
• Let me address some of the arguments I keep seeing regarding the Heirloom Collection. (1,484)
• For the same price as the new Heirloom Collection, you could buy Baldur's Gate 3 and still save money (1,460)
• The warframe heirlooom collection it's a shameful demonstration of how NOT this game made it to 10 years. (1,205)
• The Heirloom Collection is the worst, most predatory thing DE has done so far, and the worst thing they could do on their most important day of the year, along with such an important celebration. (1,165)
• DE, attaching a bunch of aya to a skin bundle just to inflate the price is not cool. (1,149)
• This absolutely absurd. There is no reason why these skins should be locked to a bundle. Especially since most Tenno don’t care to much for what’s in the bundle other than the cosmetics. (864)
• The Heirloom Collection is Available, Money Only. (820)

Maybe there are people defending the packs in the comments, but the top comments are all negative as well.

I saw the second one. It's what made me decide on my stance against the accolade for this debacle. IIRC the accolade is named ten-year supporter and it doesn't seem significant for number one, everyone can get it and unlike the Founders it weigh less. 

Coupled with number 2, even someone entirely new can get it and with the title of the accolade, it just sounds silly. A new player can be called a ten year supporter for purchasing the right item, but there are surely players who had been playing at the start and had bought plat to support the game.

It's even more a punch in the gut to the older players who had bought enough plat to match the same amount as this pack's price over the course of the years.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Stafelund

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Aaaaand we're back to half a Forum page. I'll address the first part considering thats all the space you should have needed in order to get any point ever conceived across.

Normally this is the part where I'd say "yeah you've managed to completely misunderstand the question so your answer doesn't apply", but then apparently that observation/correction would be branded an accusation. So I'll just say that you need to read the question again.

As for the rest I'll happily look into, when it's reasonable.

 

Sure.

I think I answered the question adequately, but I could have misunderstood. I probably won't realise my error unless you explain it a bit more though, as even after rereading it, my answer remains generally the same. 

Take care. 

[PublikDomain]

6 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

I saw the second one. It's what made me decide on my stance against the accolade for this debacle. IIRC the accolade is named ten-year supporter and it doesn't seem significant for number one, everyone can get it and unlike the Founders it weigh less. 

Coupled with number 2, everyone can get it and with the title of the accolade, it just sounds silly. A new player can be called a ten year supporter for purchasing the right item, but there are surely players who had been playing at the start and had bought plat to support the game.

It's even more a punch in the gut if the player has bought enough plat to match same amount as this pack's price over the course of the years.

The Accolade is definitely one of the big things that needs to be changed. I think it'd be fair to give the Accolade to anyone that's ever spent money on the game. Merch, plat, PA, whatever. Extend it out to the end of the year, so anyone that wants it can spend even the smallest amount of money and get it. Maybe add a silver copy of the Accolade for purely F2P players, since they matter too. Recognize all the ways people have supported this game over the years instead of paywalling it which just feels so gross.

Edited August 28, 2023 by PublikDomain

[Royal_Espeon]

1 hour ago, Sirocco.Asagao said:

Everyone who buys primes gets more than temporary skins they get a permenant extension to their armory, people who buy skins only use it till it's no longer the nicest looking skin available to said warframe this being said, Skins, Emote, Pallet seperated from the Aya and Plat, things you don't want and this would have never been a problem
Whales gonna be whales period.

Here's the thing, those permanent additions are 1. Farmable in-game; And 2. will rotate back around eventually. These skins, and a brand new cosmetic useable with every frame, that we have never had before? They made it clear these aren't coming back.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 5 horas, PublikDomain dijo:

In addition to the Regal Aya change I linked earlier, I was wondering what DE had said about other time limited deluxe skins since IIRC you (or someone else, mb) had mentioned that they were initially time limited until it was changed. Some receipts:

The Proto Excalibur skin was the first deluxe skin, and was introduced in 2014 in U12.6:

This would return again in 2015 for the next yearly anniversary and a second time in 2015 for the Excalibur rework:

Then there was the Nyx Nemesis skin, introduced in 2015 for one week as a Darvo thing:

The next was Valkyr Gersemi, which was a time limited deluxe skin added in 2015 in U17.5:

And then Saryn Orphid, which was a time limited deluxe skin added in 2015 in U17.10:

And then came Rhino Palatine in 2015 in U17.12, which was not a time limited deluxe skin. It was a permanent deluxe skin, and all of the previous temporary deluxe skins were brought back to the market at the same time:

And they haven't done a time limited deluxe skin in the eight years since. This is a lesson DE learned in 2015.

The big difference is that the game changed owners. Tencent (or whoever is pulling the strings) doesn't give a f*ck about the lessons DE of the past has learned.

[Prexades]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Waeleto:

She's responsible for warframe but she still has to answer to higher ups she doesn't OWN DE

By your logic no one is responsible or you suggesting responsibility is with the one guy who typed in the numbers of the price into a console?

[ShogunGunshow]

31 minutes ago, Prexades said:

By your logic no one is responsible or you suggesting responsibility is with the one guy who typed in the numbers of the price into a console?

... I think they're saying, you know, Tencent.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

6 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

*snip

It's sad that people don't take the time to actually read what you have to say, because 99.99% of the time it's very thoughtful and has compelling incite about whatever is the topic of discussion.  You continue to be the voice of reason amongst the denizen that dwell in the troll quagmire of the Forums, so thank you for your continued efforts to bring forth the humanity that sometimes is buried deep within ourselves.  Just note that you are appreciated and admired as there are too few who can withstand the deluge of vitriol and ignorance that spews forth from some that need validation or acceptance of their skewed opinions.  It is debilitating at times to be beaten down by those with opposing views but somehow you seem to find a common ground; which I think is commendable and noble, as it is easier to remain stalwart in one's opinion then try to understand other perspectives.  So keep on doin' your thang as it's always a pleasure to read your input! 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

16 minutes ago, Prexades said:

By your logic no one is responsible or you suggesting responsibility is with the one guy who typed in the numbers of the price into a console?

 

I think I get what they are saying. Reb is Creative Director, which is a pretty high position, but may not be the highest position or position with the most influence or power over such decisions. At least thats my understanding, I would be happy for someone with more knowledge to correct me. Its my understanding that it can vary from industry to industry to, as far as what positions can have more power or influence. 

I remember when I was younger, being surprised by how much pull Marvels (comics) marketing department had over certain high position creative positions. A lot of such info is also publicly available too, so just doing a quick search on DE, well there are Presidents, CFO (Chief Financial Officer), COO (Chief Operating Officer) as well as some other positions.

Not that I am implying that Creative Director can't have a say, but it might just be more complicated than that. I also personally don't know enough about their level of game management or internal processes to feel too comfortable speculating. Like are such decisions the result of a group decision? Are their individuals who specialise in pricing specifically that push for certain numbers, where those who may specialise elsewhere, sort of figure its better to trust them, since thats their job. Is there room for push and pull, where like times in the past, like Regal Aya, adjustments were made? What did that mean?  Do arguments happen, how are they resolved. What about short term VS long term data too. For example, they did change Regal Ayas pricing, but would they have reliable data to show that if they stuck to their original plan, they would have made more money and the goodwill they got from changing wasn't worth it? Or maybe they ended up making more money this way?

Either outcome could influence how they handle such issues as presented now. Its entirely possible some individuals at DE are a bit puzzled by the decisions around the pricing, but likely even less who are, but in a position to ask questions about it, and then even less in a position to argue against and get changes actually made. 

That all also being said, its often easier for people in general, myself included to want to separate the person we want to like, and think has our back, from the greedy, money focused grofit taker. There are a bunch of names on the DE management info listings I don't recognise... So they are definitely the guy to blame. Not our friendly Dev Team that appear on the streams! (I say this bit light heartedly of course.)

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

It's sad that people don't take the time to actually read what you have to say, because 99.99% of the time it's very thoughtful and has compelling incite about whatever is the topic of discussion.  You continue to be the voice of reason amongst the denizen that dwell in the troll quagmire of the Forums, so thank you for your continued efforts to bring forth the humanity that sometimes is buried deep within ourselves.  Just note that you are appreciated and admired as there are too few who can withstand the deluge of vitriol and ignorance that spews forth from some that need validation or acceptance of their skewed opinions.  It is debilitating at times to be beaten down by those with opposing views but somehow you seem to find a common ground; which I think is commendable and noble, as it is easier to remain stalwart in one's opinion then try to understand other perspectives.  So keep on doin' your thang as it's always a pleasure to read your input! 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

 

Thank you sinamanthediva, thats very generous of you to say. 

I appreciate your kind words. You are always quick to compliment others. 

I just like a chill atmosphere, even when we as fans have some pretty heated opinions or views over Warframe. If anything, that can actually enable us to have even more heated and strong takes, if we all sort of recognise that there is another person on the other side of the screen, and to be willing to accommodate them, even if we may disagree with them too. 

You have a pleasant tomorrow too (and a Tau Forged Blessed week!)

[Anmorata_Armitage]

omfg I just saw its also FOMO bait.  What the heck DE.  Remove the Plat and Aya and release the skins at a reasonable cost please.  Also please reconsider time gating the purchase of the skins.  There is no reason to use FOMO as a monetization tactic.  You're better than this.

[Lionsheart89]

7 minutes ago, Anmorata_Armitage said:

omfg I just saw its also FOMO bait.  What the heck DE.  Remove the Plat and Aya and release the skins at a reasonable cost please.  Also please reconsider time gating the purchase of the skins.  There is no reason to use FOMO as a monetization tactic.  You're better than this.

Without the aya and plat, the prices would be lower but they would still be high, but I don't think the backlash would be quite as severe. I think that was their biggest mistake. Without all the extras, I think they would still make a decent profit.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Lionsheart89

[Hardyc_Tenno]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

Issue is the presentation. It needs to be more clear that it's a founders/supporter pack and nothing else. Otherwise people will go crazy. 

Well I just mean my definition of supports, all pay packages. I mean the fact is that majority stuff can be obtained for free, so any pay packages can be counted as supports, for me at least. POE has made an exceptional example I believe, they tell you to buy supporter packs if you want something. That way I bought top tier supporter pack (something around 400usd) without hesitation and regrets. Warframe packages? I don't know, most accessories are just junk and will be left rotten in inventory. Anyways, its not a perfect presentation lol , just me trying to comfort myself for the willingness to pay.

[NightmareT12]

Since I believe in this discussion everything is said already, I just want to note a few things:

1. The most sensible option is not touch pricing on current bundles, but rather include more stuff in them (what happened with Mesa's PA and Regal Aya). The reason for this is that if they include more stuff it costs them nothing, but creating more packs or lowering the value will most likely force them to offer refunds, and while on PC it's relatively easier, you have to take into account third party store fronts. Something makes me think that's a harder story. I think if they include minimum the 600 plat in the mid tier pack and more plat in the top tier one, bringing enough value to everyone's eyes, there will be a huge advance.
    
2. Since the time limit thing is perhaps the most controversial one they can probably backtrack partially. By that I mean they can retire temporarily the pack on December 31st and make it come back next TennoCon for a limited time. At that time, then, they could probably offer different packs alongside the current ones. Unlike with Founder's packs we're currently on week 1 and there's people, including those of us who have gotten the packs, that are stating that the time gate is the biggest mistake. Something tells me this would not cause an issue. However there might be a need to offer refunds to players here as well, that's something I am not as certain, due the announcement of the "never returning again". Since it's already been advertised there could be some false advertising claim here? This is perhaps the biggest legal question I have and one I have 0 doubt they're currently pressing their legal team to determine.
    
3. I don't think offering the skins for platinum is within reason. These are very clearly Prime Accessory level, as in, cash only. Anyone expecting really needs to stop because now that would be perhaps the biggest issue here.

Lastly, I also want to compliment you @(PSN)slightconfuzzled. Reading your last couple posts have been a breath of fresh air amongst so much negativity and out of this world takes this last couple days. Thank you.

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, Stafelund said:

I saw the second one. It's what made me decide on my stance against the accolade for this debacle. IIRC the accolade is named ten-year supporter and it doesn't seem significant for number one, everyone can get it and unlike the Founders it weigh less. 

Coupled with number 2, even someone entirely new can get it and with the title of the accolade, it just sounds silly. A new player can be called a ten year supporter for purchasing the right item, but there are surely players who had been playing at the start and had bought plat to support the game.

It's even more a punch in the gut to the older players who had bought enough plat to match the same amount as this pack's price over the course of the years.

As someone that’s played Warframe since mid 2013, I’ve spent at least $1k in real money to acknowledge and say thank you to DE’s efforts at giving us a high quality f2p gaming experience.

I haven’t always agreed with DE’s design decisions, but it’s ultimately their game. I accept that and engage with elements of the game that I like.

I see an offer for something I like that I think is fairly priced? I’ll buy it.

IF there was a bundle for the cosmetics only and said bundle was offered for say $30-40 USD, I’d snap that up in a heartbeat because those cosmetics look amazing and the devs have been doing some good work lately.

I will not get any of the current bundles. Why?

I already have Frost Prime and Mag Prime…so the Aya is worthless to me. Likewise for the plat. For me, the main bundle is a waste of money.

That said, I’m disappointed that there’s no option to get only the cosmetics. That’s all I want.

I’m also disappointed that this bundle has an arbitrary expiration date to push players with impulse control issues to buy asap.

I’d expect this kind of greedy, manipulative behavior from Activision/Blizzard and Bungie…not DE. They can - and have in the past - done better than this.

[bugzc]

take out the plat and aya and maybe you got a deal.

 

don't go down this rout don't kill your game due to greed.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

I don't think offering the skins for platinum is within reason. These are very clearly Prime Accessory level, as in, cash only. Anyone expecting really needs to stop because now that would be perhaps the biggest issue here.

I dunno, nothing about them appears to me any differently than any other Deluxe skin. What makes them "Prime Accessory level" vs "Deluxe Skin level"? Not to single you out or anything, but a few people have made this comparison to Prime Accessories and I'm just not seeing where that comparison comes from.

What is it about this:

That's so different from any of these:

Is it because they use new character meshes instead of just new textures on the base body? Because that's what all Deluxe skins do. Is it the quality? Because these are all equally high quality. Is it the animated textures? Because many of them have animated textures. Is it the extra attachment? Because all of these come with attachments, Syandanas, and/or weapon skins. Is it the metallic accents? Because most deluxes have the same accenting. Is it the price point? Because without the 6 RA these skins end up being around the same $10-15 you'd pay for the 150-265p needed to buy any other Deluxe. Is it because of the timing? Because the Proto Excalibur Deluxe skin was originally released to celebrate the game's anniversary and was later made permanent with all the other Deluxes. Is it the paired theme? Because the Volt/Mesa skins are paired the same way, and they're a particularly great comparison since they too came alongside a then-new cosmetic type: the evolving Protovyre armor set. All for plat.

What is it, besides the cash only nature and the manufactured exclusivity, that makes the Heirloom skins any different from any other Deluxe skin?

Edited August 29, 2023 by PublikDomain

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

16 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

How about $40 or even $30, for the whales that already brought them, give them extra Aya for the trouble of making a new pack cheaper. 

No. Actually, what you are now doing is the opposing side of what some of you are saying DE is doing: being predatory and unreasonable. These are once in 10 year items and trying to cheap out on them is just as disrespectful. $60 without Regal Aya sounds fair to me. Everything else in that package has a strong showing of value.