The price of Heirloom skins is incredibly disappointing.

[ShogunGunshow]

The longer this drags on without announcing a change to the pack and an offer of refunds, the longer the potential backlog of potential refunds grows, and the more unlikely a viable solution becomes.

I'm actually kind of surprised we've heard jack from the devs, especially given the volume of response and how it's drowning out discussion of what they actually want people to be talking about (1999).

[NightmareT12]

4 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I'm actually kind of surprised we've heard jack from the devs, especially given the volume of response and how it's drowning out discussion of what they actually want people to be talking about (1999).

They're probably putting together a statement and deciding what to do, and depending on what to do assessing what time will be needed to do so. They might have also, as I suggested earlier, have had their legal team study the situation. I'm not expecting anything until Thursday to be honest.

Edited August 29, 2023 by NightmareT12

[trst]

18 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

@Trst is right.

When they can ignore the wukong review bombing last year, they most definitely can ignore a few angry forum posts.

I think most of us just assume you whales are buying it anyway, I guess. I mean no offense but whales don't have much bargining power in so far as their self-control.

And that's just it. Until the optics around the issue actually get bad like some major YT channel riles players up and/or news articles painting DE in a negative light start showing up there's nothing for DE to really respond to. And if players aren't upset past a few duplicated threads here and the reddit, which especially on reddit is getting really overdone now, there's not going to be a whole lot for content creators to bounce off of.

If players want to cause an actual outrage over this and force DE to respond then they need to actually cause an outrage over it. Start review bombing and seek the attention of notable content creators and gaming news outlets. Or if players want to play the long game here actually stop spending money on the game instead of getting over it in a few weeks/months like most people do in that situation.

 

Also being able to make pricy purchases over a single game doesn't automatically mean someone lacks self-control. It just as well means that someone cares about the product enough to invest that and/or just has the disposable income to afford it. Plus it seems disingenuous to call those who make a, as of now one-time, up to $90 purchase whales when there's those who're spending $140 USD every six months on PA.

[MaleniaBladeofMiquella]

there are already news articles talking about it. No idea how popular they are though since I don't follow that sort of thing.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

Ik people say the heirlooms are overpriced but Prime Access is also stupidly expensive as well. Yes prime access gives all the platinum you'd ever want, but still.... 

The whole point of the "heirloom" is that they're supposed to be what the name says they are: heirlooms. You aren't supposed to see every other Frost/Mag in region chat rocking the heirlooms. Is that a bit excessive?

Maybe it is, but the same thing applies to games (such as Fortnite) that lock skins and things behind "exclusive bundles" that cost way too much. Fortnite for example has skins you could only get from buying a phone/console (hundreds of dollars) and while you could resell them online, you're still spending like $100. (And Fortnite is one of the few games that are somewhat fair with their prices {most notably their battle passes and the fact they permanently reduced the cost of all in-game purchases}.)

Ironically, some of the games where people spend the most money also give out the most free content to their players.

Edited August 29, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[MirageKnight]

2 minutes ago, trst said:

And that's just it. Until the optics around the issue actually get bad like some major YT channel riles players up and/or news articles painting DE in a negative light start showing up there's nothing for DE to really respond to.

From what I’ve seen, content creators are starting to make their feelings known. Eg: Tactical Potato was rather vocal in his criticism of the bundle in his brief synopsis of tennocon 2023.

[trst]

7 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

From what I’ve seen, content creators are starting to make their feelings known. Eg: Tactical Potato was rather vocal in his criticism of the bundle in his brief synopsis of tennocon 2023.

Not sure I'd call a channel that focuses on a single game with only 360k subscribers a "major" channel though. Plus those opinions are tucked away in a video on a different topic, not exactly the place to stir the pot with.

[Hypernaut1]

I feel like the Regal Aya outrage was 10x worse and more visible, and that was highly successful even before any changes. With this, you have people that dont want it and a bunch of players that are fine with it. 

[MaxTunnerX]

As much as I dont care about cosmetics at all, not even if theyre overpriced, I think 10 year anniversary specific cosmetics should be free. Just my 2 cents.

[PublikDomain]

51 minutes ago, Keithy55 said:

This means that 2 skins + signas costs about 35 USD, or 17.50 USD per skin + signa

That sounds fair. So why can't I spend $17.50 USD worth of platinum or Regal Aya to buy them? That's about 330p, which is a little high for just a Deluxe skin but that's not all that far off from the others. I've already paid for that amount of plat and much, much more. Why can I not pay using that? Is that money not good enough anymore? What is the purpose of only offering these items for cash?

There's an answer to those questions, and they're not particularly inspiring ones. It doesn't matter that I already paid $79.99 for 15 Regal Aya and 2,100 plat in 2021, or that I already paid $139.99 for 3,990 plat in 2022 as part of a Prime Access, or that I already paid $79.99 for another 15 Regal Aya and 2,100 plat just this year. It doesn't matter because that's old money, and you can only get these glorified Deluxe skins for new money.

That is the only reason these skins are cash-only: because then only way to get them is to spend more new money. That's it. The manufactured time limit and exclusivity is just marketing wank to justify it.

51 minutes ago, Keithy55 said:

I would like to point out that the Founders Packs are the only other cash-based FOMO that DE/Warframe has offered, which is a really respectable thing that a game of 10 years has done. I want to see people find other successful >10 year old MMOs that has equal or less amount of cash-based FOMO in their game. It's really hard to say that the Heirloom Collection is predatory when you compare it with other MMO bundles in the market now, have you seen the state of Warframe China's microtransaction economy in it's pre-Tencent days? That's predatory (not DE's fault btw, ChangYou sucked, look it up yourself).

I dunno, to me "respectable" would be something like turning FOMO deluxe skins like those first added in 2014-2015 (Proto Excalibur, Nyx Nemesis, Valkyr Gersemi, and Saryn Orphid) and making them permanent additions, which they did when they released Rhino Palatine. And since then, every single Deluxe skin - which is all these skins are - have been both permanently available and plat purchasable. I don't really see how it's respectable that they're going back on 8 years of fair monetization and "F2P done right".

Like, just because DE aren't horrible scumbags all the time doesn't mean they're incapable of doing scummy things. Just because other developers are predatory doesn't give DE a free pass to be predatory if it's only just a little bit. Usually DE's great, and their pricing is fair and generous, and you get a good value for what you pay. And sometimes they push the limits of FOMO cash-only packs, and sometimes they try to replace the plat in the Prime Vault's replacement with Endo yet charge the same price for it, and sometimes they paywall a "10 year supporter" badge behind cash in spite of all the other ways people have supported them over the years.

51 minutes ago, Keithy55 said:

What if the profits from the collection are all pumped into making 1999 the best update since New War or Second Dream? Have you realised that the New War was the last update that they had to truly postpone and released Heart of Deimos first? Whatever DE promised in a TennoCon, they have been able to fulfill most of them by the next one, how do you think they could do that more effectively recently?

Then they shouldn't have just donated $200,000 to charity if they're so strapped for cash. They're putting out the biggest updates they ever have. They're publishing Wayfinder. They're making a second different game in-house. They just put on a huge convention. DE shows no signs whatsoever of being in financial duress or needing a new round of funding.

Edited August 29, 2023 by PublikDomain

[Stormandreas]

1 hour ago, Keithy55 said:

I would like to point out that the Founders Packs are the only other cash-based FOMO that DE/Warframe has offered

I'll admit I've only skimmed through the post thus far, but this is not true.

There was:
Founders
Original prime Access
Reviewed Prime Access (before the prime vault)
All other supporter packs

EDIT: From reading a little more, the issue is also not the pricing. The issue is the options. There is no option for just the skins and no Regal Aya. Regal Aya was thrown in to drastically up the cost of the pack.

Many of us do not need, nor want this Regal Aya. Many of us would 100% purchase the package if it were just the skins or had platinum instead of the aya, but.... we can't.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Stormandreas

[PublikDomain]

46 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

The longer this drags on without announcing a change to the pack and an offer of refunds, the longer the potential backlog of potential refunds grows, and the more unlikely a viable solution becomes.

I'm actually kind of surprised we've heard jack from the devs, especially given the volume of response and how it's drowning out discussion of what they actually want people to be talking about (1999).

The Regal Aya workshop made it to 52 pages, so we're right on track.

[NightmareT12]

3 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

I'll admit I've only skimmed through the post thus far, but this is not true.

There was:
Founders
Original prime Access
Reviewed Prime Access (before the prime vault)
All other supporter packs

I also think they extended the Founders program 2 times IIRC. It ended on October 2013 but it was meant to end a couple times earlier.

[Stormandreas]

Just now, NightmareT12 said:

I also think they extended the Founders program 2 times IIRC. It ended on October 2013 but it was meant to end a couple times earlier.

This is true

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I think this might end up merged with the main thread... Since like, there are a lot of different ways to address and tackle the subject, as well as "different arguments" because every person can be a little different about why they are okay, or aren't okay with the topics such issues bring with it, around price structures, FOMO, whats "right" and what isn't etc. 

Personally, I am not really a fan of arguments trying to validate the price by "breaking it down" to elements. You guys know about the Frugal Credit Bundle right? For 25 Plat, you can get 50, 000 Credits. Therefore Credits must have a Plat value of 25 right? That means, if we just removed all Platinum from bundles and replaced it with the equivalent Credit value, well thats fine right? Except obviously not, people don't care about Credits anywhere as much, its also why Regal Aya generated so much negativity, because the "Bonus Endo" for many wasn't anywhere near the value, whether in comparison ti Plat or for the amount of real currency used for the bundle. 

Trying to break down such bundles, I am not inherently against, especially as more of a reference or guide, but it can often overlook a lot of important context or considerations in the flawed pursuit of being "fair" or "calculated the true value". 

For example, I think you make good points about the utility of Regal Aya. Having some Regal Aya is kind of nice. For example, I didn't personally get Harrow prime Accessories, but the Prime Drifter/Operator suit you get from it, is really cool looking. So hey, when it eventually rotates back into Prime Resurgence I might get it right? Isn't it great, that even though I missed out on it the first time, I have the option to get it the next time, a few months, or even years later? I can buy Regal Aya now... or in a few months, or a few years? Which is something you can't do with these Heirloom skins! This is why trying to "break down" into components may not necessary work the best as far as understanding criticisms and frustrations, because whilst Platinum and Regal Aya are nice to have generally, their value and utility isn't locked to a 4 month window. The skins are, so many people would probably just rather buy the skins now, before they disappear, before they miss out, without having to spend extra to get Regal Aya or Plat with it. Its not that those things have zero value, just those things don't have FOMO attached to them. 

Again, its also a flawed comparison, but imagine if the costs were $200 dollars and the bundle had a "Heirloom Credit" component, where you got $100 worth of Plat... worth of Credits. Think about it, you'll never have to farm Index again! 

Other game does %^%^ thing so its okay isn't a good argument. Some games, some Developers try to stand out by actually varying in how consumer friendly, and relatively ethical they are. Warframe recently even got a minor surge of Destiny players because of some poor decision making Bungie, were making. Consider the journey of Overwatch to Overwatch 2. Yeah such subjects, they are far more complicated than we can really discuss, without generalising and simplifying, and there are reasons for that. Think about it this way, when DE originally tried getting a publisher for Warframe, publishers often rather wanted them to make a generic world war shooter for them (at the time). We wouldn't have gotten Warframe if they just conformed to industry standards. Some person was like "this is fine, Destiny does stuff like this all the time" and like... yes, thats why I don't play or support Destiny. I will support and play Baldurs Gate 3, and not Diablo IV. 

FOMO can vary in nature, sure. "Get yours before its gone", what does this language entail to you? 

Daily Steel Path rewards, as in Steel Essence. A resource you can generally always get. Yes there are five missions daily that will give you extra... but you ca also just do Steel Path missions whenever you want, to get Steel Essence. How, is this, in anyway, comparable to two unique, exclusive skins, that will be permanently removed? Do I really need to also explain the differences between that and Nightwave, and Rivens? Like really? People ptobably skip those arguments because that aren't good, strong or convincing. The most recent Nightwave even brought back one of the few rare rewards that people had been asking in the Saturn Six armour set. DE doesn't come out and say "you better get to rank 30 this Nightwave, because the reward is an item thats never coming back. So get yours before its gone!" we already know, it may take time, but such items usually make their way back into reward rotation. 

I also would say that the Founders pack isn't the only other cash based FOMO from Warframe. I'd also be sure to employ context too. Like, personally, I am generally against the idea of say Founders exclusives, in general... but in the actual context here with Warframe, its understandable. They were taking a risk, self publishing, this was their last chance, future for the Devs and the players who were founders was uncertain, they needed support, yadda yadda. Kickstarter had been a thing for a few years, its not as if it was a huge Publisher/Developer trying to prey on consumers wallets. 

Also there are a few Supporter packs that are, or were cash only, but generally the context there is... the cosmetics, subjectively speaking, aren't highly prized or valued. So they are exclusive, and involve some FOMO, but here is where they actual scale can apply. Like sure, for some, there is no difference between a pistol skin and a Warframe skin, but eh, I'd argue that for many people, a very well designed and visually appealing Warframe skin, is far more valuable than a pistol skin. Entering a lot of subjectivity here, but I hope my point is getting across. Its the same with Rubedo Rhino skin and some of the other limited time or exclusive things Warframe has had. Also, importantly, such bundles are generally cheaper, which can offset FOMO, and such bundles also usually experienced a price reduction/sale before being retired, and such bundles often were in the store a lot longer as well. All variables and context which can lessen certain aspects of FOMO. Still worth criticism and ire, but relatively? It makes sense why peoples responses are different. 

Plus trying to downplay or undermine peoples issues by trying to use comparisons this way (not saying that you are OP) just... Its like Regal Aya and the people who would say "well I personally need Endo more than Platinum, and so you guys should shut up, since they are of similar value!" 

I don't think that DE is a greedy predator (generally I am actually pretty pro DE), but also, assigning such titles to people, because they may be critical isn't the best either (not saying that you are doing this OP, but its important to point out.) Thanks. 

[trst]

Just to add to the whole Regal Aya point, it is far better than making players pay for the frames as part of the bundle. Inflating it with frames that players can get for free/already have means paying a huge markup for two frame slots and like 30k credits.

Making it Regal instead and dropping their Resurgence at the same time gives players the option to get their Primes along with the bundle or getting whatever else they want should they not need the frames.

 

The counterpoint there being that they shouldn't force either onto players is valid and there ought to be a skin only bundle (which would probably still be inflated with plat). But there's not much of an issue with the whole thing outside of that one point.

[Voltage]

Everyone has varying concerns regarding the bundles. Lots of people claim "overpriced" not because of the value per item per dollar, but because of the bundle's cost in of itself. Over the cost of a brand new full game for cosmetics is steep for lots of people globally. 

You're perfectly fair to point out what Regal Aya can purchase, but there are still several people who want no part in that currency, just like how lots of people pre-Sacrifice in 2018 didn't want to be forced to buy Ember Prime, Frost Prime, Sicarus Prime, Glaive Prime, Reaper Prime, and/or Latron Prime to own Misa Prime and Pyra Prime (or vice versa). What bothers many is how this goes against what DE has made clear previously with the way bundles were handled.

The underlying issue that I (and others) have mentioned before, but nobody seemed to heed warning to was that this has been a slow transition. They've normalized some of this behavior through Regal Aya and paid Supporter Bundles for updates so that there is this argument of "well they've been doing this for a while, so it's okay". Slowly turning up the heat over time still results in boiling the water. Taking your time to reach that point doesn't mean the water isn't hot. Purchased exclusives for deluxe skins was done away with in 2015, before we even got The Second Dream. Sure, it was Platinum and not money, but the comparison is still there. There's many examples that lead to an understandable frustration from several old players.

Another point to consider is how Accolades have been handled in this game. It's very disrespectful to sell a "10 year supporter" badge exclusive to a single new bundle instead of adding this as a mechanic to be a badge given to anyone who has purchased Prime Access, Founder Access, Vault Access, Regal Aya bundle, Supporter Pack, Starter Pack, Platinum Package, TennoCon physical or digital ticket, or this Heirloom collection.

The severity of FOMO is the most important point of discussion, and overlooking that is grossly disingenuous. With scheduled missions, what matters is the break between playtime and the availability of the item. Missions like Steel Path Alerts or Eidolons rotate fast enough to where this isn't a concern, because the player can still vastly over-farm the resource in a casual manner. They also have alternatives. Nightwave has catch up, and the only reason some rewards have gotten severe is because their seasonal run time has been mismanaged from the start. When we get into Umbra Forma, Archon Shards, and Incarnon Adapters, now we are heading back into my point of being slow-boiled. It's absolutely correct to say that things have had FOMO in some form since the get-go. Here's the kicker that the person you quoted just happened to miss out:

1. DE permanently added Boar to drop tables in 2015 when it was previously exclusive to the Rhino bundle in the Market.
2. DE removed exclusivity on Platinum purchased deluxe skins in 2015.
3. DE retired consecutive Login Rewards for the Login Tribute system in 2015 with The Second Dream.
4. DE permanently added Gorgon Wraith, Magma Chamber, Searing Steel, and the 120% Puncture mod set to Razorback in 2016.
5. DE removed Tower Void Keys for Void Fissures with Void Relics in 2016 so that players had an opportunity to earn Primes after they were out of rotation and in the Vault.
6. DE added all previous event weapons to Invasions with the retirement of Sortie Seasons in 2016 with the release of Riven Mods and The War Within.
7. DE made Aviator permanently available through the addition of the Grineer Nox in 2017.
8. DE added choices to milestone rewards in the Daily Tribute system in 2018.
9. DE removed Trials with a 1 Arcane, per trial, per day reward cooldown in favor of Eidolons in 2018 which give 1 Arcane, per Eidolon, per mission, per night cycle for 18 Arcanes at 6x3.
10. DE added cosmetic only bundles to Prime Vault Access in 2018 to give players more purchase options so they weren't pushed into buying things they may not need.
11. DE added Lato and Braton Vandal to Elite Sanctuary Onslaught in 2018. 
12. DE removed the Tenebrous Ephemera from Rare/Reinforced Sentient Containers within the Murex in 2019.
13. DE removed Alerts for Nightwave in 2019 so that players had better opportunity for Nitain Extract, Slots, and several other items.
14. DE made Primed Chamber permanently available in 2020.
15. DE re-added Prime cosmetics from Twitch Prime campaigns to Varzia with Primed Resurgence in 2021.

I could list several more examples, but I think you get the point. DE has built a reputation for the better part of a decade to combat exclusivity with the only major exception being the situation of Founders packages. It's only recently (within the context of Warframe's life span) that we've seen Supporter Packs, Regal Aya, the Heirloom Collection, and obnoxiously drawn out time-gating integrated with gameplay such as Incarnon Adapters & Archon Shards

1 hour ago, Keithy55 said:

I would like to point out that the Founders Packs are the only other cash-based FOMO that DE/Warframe has offered

This is incorrect. Firstly, Prime Access, Prime Vault/Prime Resurgence, TennoCon tickets and Twitch Prime campaigns all qualify as FOMO. You can't say "there's no fear of missing out because you can potentially earn this item in multiple years from now". Even if you meant to say Founders Packs are the only cash-based exclusivity packages Warframe has offered, you'd still be incorrect.

Supporter Packs use the word "exclusive" or similar language (limited time, gone forever, etc.) for marketing:

https://www.warframe.com/news/empyrean-supporter-pack

https://www.warframe.com/supporter-packs/veilbreaker

https://www.warframe.com/news/angels-of-the-zariman-supporter-packs

https://www.warframe.com/news/last-chance-for-sisters-of-parvos-supporter-packs

https://www.warframe.com/news/save-on-deimos-supporter-packs

TennoCon also uses these terms:

2016: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/649789-tennocon-2016-announcements/

2017: https://web.archive.org/web/20170314155338/https://www.warframe.com/tennocon

2018: https://web.archive.org/web/20180612200427/https://www.warframe.com/tennocon

2019: https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164219/https://www.warframe.com/tennocon

2020: https://web.archive.org/web/20200609052237/https://www.warframe.com/tennocon

I'm sure you get the idea.

You can only do so much of this before it starts to be irritating for players. This is also the most major milestone of the game since The Second Dream or Plains of Eidolon. When it's only TennoCons and Founders, it's understandable. When you add Supporter Packs, your head is still above water, but it's tolerable. When you add a celebratory Ten Year package for a grand milestone with one of the original main artists of the game making cosmetics, now some people feel like they're underwater.

Comparing to the industry is exactly the problem. Players are trying to speak up that we are steering towards the industry standard, and not everyone enjoys the idea of being bent over a barrel. If we were, we would all be playing Destiny 2, Diablo Immortal, or FIFA.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Voltage

[Silligoose]

Players can decide whether it is worth it to them or not, but it should be noted that, unlike furniture, cars, certain types of clothes etc that has its price influenced by materials, production capabilities, quality, quantity etc and are exclusive as a result of a combination of these factors, the skins in Heirloom packs are only exclusive because DE said they are. There is no other reason than that.

Regal Aya is a premium currency DE introduced exactly for packages such as these, to encourage players to spend premium currency on assets (such as weapons or frames) they wouldn't have otherwise. because they get "stuck" with these things due to how packages are compiled.

Whether an individual considers the Heirloom package, Regal Aya, Prime Access, other skins etc overpriced, is subjective. Whether it is more objectively overpriced, or underpriced, depends on where the current price point lies in relation to the price point which yields maximum profit, which will always be an unknown, but mathematical models will aim to get an estimate of that.

Personally I prefer when games rely more on cosmetics for income, as opposed to assets that affect gameplay, as the latter of the two options tend to influence mechanics pertaining to droprates, timegates etc

[PollexMessier]

9 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I feel like I should point out that the Lunar Renewal skins for Saryn and Grendel are also just available to buy on the market. They're anti examples of FOMO.

Oh they are! I was under the impression that those were timed exclusives and never really bothered to check. Thank you for pointing that out.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

20 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

DE shows no signs whatsoever of being in financial duress or needing a new round of funding.

 

Agreed. I thought your entire reply was well written (and concise, something I struggle with lol)  I just wanted to touch on this as well. From as many sources as I can gather, DE, or at least Warframe is doing great. Think about Steams top games measured by gross revenue. Warframe is in the Gold category.

If I personally knew, that such sales from the skins were going directly back into Warframe, I'd be a little bit less critical, and skeptical, but then I would also question why more care and consideration wasn't employed for the price structuring and the general decision making process to the fomo aspects "get yours before its too late", and also the general accessibility of very well designed skins. So its hard not to be critical or skeptical, that its not just a way to borrow some techniques that less consumer friendly games indulge in, especially with the hype and goodwill of Tennocon surrounding it. I personally dislike speculating too much about Tencents management of DE, but I can imagine someone thinking its as if they looked at Destiny 2 in the Platinum category of Steams top games, and demanded that Warframe pull itself up into that category too, at any cost. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

Ok this it's hilarious. 

[ShogunGunshow]

3 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

Oh they are! I was under the impression that those were timed exclusives and never really bothered to check. Thank you for pointing that out.

Yeah the Saryn one is kind of whatever but the Grendel Nian skin is *fire*. That'd be some bulldookie if it was timed exclusive.

[Voltage]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Think about Steams top games measured by gross revenue. Warframe is in the Gold category.

*Since atleast 2020:

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/BestOf2020

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/BestOf2021

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/BestOf2022

[Lionsheart89]

4 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Ok this it's hilarious. 

That's some next level shade being thrown. I approve.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

Justo ahora, Lionsheart89 dijo:

That's some next level shade being thrown. I approve.

I don't know which of the reddit mods do this but if it's here thanks for giving me a laugh with this bitter thing.