Warframe 1999 - Add-on content is nice, but I'd have preferred core Warframe to be the main focus

[Kaotyke]

20 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

The only thing I can tell from the demo is Durivi is gonna be cast aside and forgotten like many new content came before it.

Like Deimos was cast aside and forgotten after its "Echos" like Update?

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Seriously, if "content islands" exist in Warframe then every single part of it from the very first update is one of these "islands".

They do exist because Warframe refuses to change things up. Bounties and open world factions have been the same since 2016. Just because we are used to it doesn't mean content islands don't exist.

Anyways I am cautiously optimistic for 1999. There was still some parkour and Warframe abilities so we will see.

Edited August 27, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[Metalgearfox]

At OP.

No.

I think that warframe power has gotten so out of hand that I can just CC and explode everything in a 1km radius every 3 seconds.

They've managed to make warframes boring with how much CC and AoE they've added, which I didn't think was possible in 2014.

It's awful.

I'm glad they are creating alternate game modes that get us back to running and gunning instead of just nuking the entire map with AoE.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 minute ago, Metalgearfox said:

At OP.

No.

I think that warframe power has gotten so out of hand that I can just CC and explode everything in a 1km radius every 3 seconds.

They've managed to make warframes boring with how much CC and AoE they've added, which I didn't think was possible in 2014.

It's awful.

I'm glad they are creating alternate game modes that get us back to running and gunning instead of just nuking the entire map with AoE.

The game doesn't need to go backwards gameplay wise to fix these issues though. Kahl missions in particular are a perfect example. Less mechanics for everything.

[Metalgearfox]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

The game doesn't need to go backwards gameplay wise to fix these issues though.

No, we really do. There's just too much CC and AoE for it to work.
There has to be a reset in order to get back to the fun, run and gun core of the game that made it so successful between 2014 and 2016.

However, people don't want to lose what they've grinded. They don't want to be nerfed. They don't want self-damage from AoE turned back on.

So this is the compromise.
We will get content islands with characters that are developed and balanced for the content island so that everyone can play on the island they like.

[(NSW)Greybones]

10 minutes ago, Metalgearfox said:

However, people don't want to lose what they've grinded. They don't want to be nerfed. They don't want self-damage from AoE turned back on.

They’re not using most of it anyways or using what they’ve earned in alternative ways. They’re taking the raw components available and making the builds and loadouts specifically because of how much overkill in either damage or survival they introduce to the mission. They’ll just bypass self-damage and then complain that there’s lack of options to do so. All under the guise that it just makes sense to turn the game off as optimally as possible.

I say let DE give the players what they really want; something to tell them how to play a videogame. Because without that, they get lost in the only thing they think matters, and even if the game babysits them and makes their choices for them, there’s no guarantee (and considering this community, it’s highly likely) that there won’t be some sort of cheese discovered and treated like the option to choose unless a player likes being sub-optimal

Edited August 28, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

38 minutes ago, Metalgearfox said:

No, we really do. There's just too much CC and AoE for it to work.
There has to be a reset in order to get back to the fun, run and gun core of the game that made it so successful between 2014 and 2016.

However, people don't want to lose what they've grinded. They don't want to be nerfed. They don't want self-damage from AoE turned back on.

So this is the compromise.
We will get content islands with characters that are developed and balanced for the content island so that everyone can play on the island they like.

Ya, this isn't the solution at all and you speak as if it's a fact(which it's not). This game has been stagnating for years because of this. Self damage has nothing to do with the overall issues we are talking about.

Edited August 28, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[trst]

47 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

They do exist because Warframe refuses to change things up. Bounties and open world factions have been the same since 2016. Just because we are used to it doesn't mean content islands don't exist.

Anyways I am cautiously optimistic for 1999. There was still some parkour and Warframe abilities so we will see.

That doesn't change anything. If they do exist then the entire game is one, even the Starchart is just a string of them with each planet/mission type being their own mini island that gets discarded once any reason to run it dries up. Just like every faction, open world, and soon whatever 1999 is.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

11 minutes ago, trst said:

That doesn't change anything. If they do exist then the entire game is one, even the Starchart is just a string of them with each planet/mission type being their own mini island that gets discarded once any reason to run it dries up. Just like every faction, open world, and soon whatever 1999 is.

You are just repeating yourself.

[Els236]

I don't exactly know if this was what @Silligoosewas getting at, but all I saw from the trailers and recap videos on YouTube was yet another content island that will dry up within a couple of weeks, then probably be forgotten about for another 6 years when DE suddenly remember they even added it.

I was kind of cringing when it sounded like they were adding in something similar to Necramechs in this new area - please do not let this be another "Deimos vault bounty" thing again, running the same 30-minute mission ad nauseum for the 2% drop-rate of some mastery-fodder that will never get touched again.

Otherwise, it's a new tile-set, a couple of guns and a new Warframe, which is basically every single update this game gets and people will be done with the grind within a couple of weeks.

 

WF 1999 would be extremely cool, if it was a separate spin-off title, but the fact it looks like it's going to be part of the "main game" (whatever that even is nowadays), is incredibly jarring. 10 years of sci-fi ninjas in space, then suddenly thrust back to 1999 "our time", fighting alongside (or as) some Metal Gear ripoff character... I dunno how this is going to turn out. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Well, for me personally, Warframe as an idea, inherently involves adaptability and change. I wasn't around for Warframe in 2013, I mean, I was in gaming, ever since the 90's, but I actually sort of avoided/ignored Warframe, because of a general distrust in FTP games, plus my preferences laid elsewhere. I did eventually get into Warframe, because of its reputation of being more consumer friendly to its players, having a devoted Dev team that was willing to admit its mistakes, and because they took risks, and was willing to change and evolve. I look at different eras of Warframe, and many look quite different in terms of pace and mobility and so on. What my idea of core Warframe, thus might not be the same as others. 

Also, I am generally the type to wait and see. Like... we got a fair bit of Warframe 1999, but I wouldn't feel confident as far as trying to create accurate predictions or expectations about what it will be about. Whether its just a story quest or will actually have a substantial gameplay loop associated with it. It looks new and interesting, so a risk of sorts, and seems to involve or tie into Dark Sector, so... I mean in some ways, thats about as core and fundamental to Warframe as anything really. Not that I am suggesting people shouldn't be apprehensive or cautious or critical either. 

Personally I was also more interested and excited for Whispers in the Walls, which arguably is more "core Warframe" for some, considering we actually see we are using a Warframe, so can also understand those apprehensive about 1999. Especially for those that were alive at that time, coming to realise that for many Warframe players, 1999 is before they were even born, and as such is some mysterious bygone era full of ancient antiquities, like CDs, cassettes and internet dial up tones. 

[Silligoose]

On 2023-08-27 at 1:48 AM, Neo3602 said:

Considering what we have seen has little context, I'm going to wait and see how it plays out.  It could tie into the main loop in a good way or it could not. Either way we'll see.

I plan on giving it a go but given the focus of the last few years and seeing the cycle may continue, prompted the creation of this thread. I agree with what I perceive your attitud to be in that remaining open-minded is a good characteristic.

On 2023-08-27 at 5:16 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

Well, I feel weird about connecting the WF universe directly to ours, even if in lore it always has been, idk, I feel weird about it. BUT, I'm also interested.

I agree with OP, I'd really appreciate core gameplay love instead of content island #861. If we got an overhaul of what we play every day instead of what we burn through, I'd be much more excited.

That said, it's not like they're completely ignoring the rest of their game. The Hydroid rework, the incarnons for old weapons - there's some attention. It's just not the game mode / game play attention the game deserves.

One major praise I will levy is the introduction of a new faction - the murmurs feel like they have tons of potential and are just conceptually cool af. The game could really benefit from a new faction. However, I'm kinda getting the sense that this will not be a 'mainstream' faction, and will instead be the equivalent of the Deimos infested, which is unfortunate. Also, expanding necramechs (just one? ugh) and the necralisk depths is great, I adore that whole aesthetic, I just wish they'd do something as cool that we can keep playing later :/

I have to say the "feeling weird" about Warframe's universe being connected to ours only hit me a little after I created this thread. In my case, I'm guessing it fiddles a bit with suspension of disbelief and emersion, as it now opens the door to our reality and natural sciences as we understand it.

Luckily they are expanding on core Warframe as well and I'm looking forward to it, but when DE stated Warframe 1999 is the direction we are heading to and it will be the bigger expansion, I thought back on the core Warframe content that was released in the last few years (eg Archon Hunts) and issues spoken of in the AMA on Reddit (eg getting stuck on corners) and how DE basically blamed neglecting core Warframe content (and the lack of innovation, quality and polish) on being busy with their newest content island at the time, Duviri. As a result, I'm not expecting polish or a lot of depth. The low level associated with the new faction is a disappointment as well. I actually loathe how DE nerfs themselves when showing off content to make it appear more challenging than it will actually be for many players, because it shows they know the lategame balance is a problem, but do not care enough to address it properly.

On 2023-08-27 at 5:52 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

i am very much looking forward to it , cause if you didnt see the actual demo the "hayden tenno" part was not too different from core gameplay and was a small part of it , just a different skin, i dont expect it to be too different from what we know and not for a prolonged period,

I am curious how that will translate for other frames as we only saw Excalibur/Arthur (the naming is so subtle).

Really curious of what loid can tell us too.

Thanks for the input. The hayden tenno demo reminded me more of Kahl than Warframe, despite the bullet jump and what appeared to be the movement boost mechanic when using slide. Here's to hoping it won't be nearly as restrictive as Kahl or Duviri in mechanics or loadout.

On 2023-08-27 at 8:12 AM, Chewarette said:

I hated this portion as well. Even if it has core warframe elements, it won't be warframe, but I guess we'll have to see what it looks like. I suspect it will be as Kahl : a side activity they will cram the newest augments/improvements there so you feel you HAVE to do it, but ultimately most of the playerbase hates it.

For me, Warframe's main interest is that it's sci fi, far in the future, with an unclear history that you find out gradually, and then the addition of the Man in the Wall was pretty great for lovecraftian vibes. And all of a sudden, we'll be playing Counter Strike. Cool, I don't care. In my opinion, if Warframe 1999 is not Wally #*!%ing with us for a short period of the story quest, that will heavily narrow down Warframe's lore, tying it to real-life "current" era is too weird for me.

Even if this portion has elements of warframe's core combat as said by other posters above (slide, some abilities, jumps), it will be lacking the main one : Warframes. You can make Arthur wear Excalibur-like stuff, he's not Excalibur. More importantly, this dude won't be all 50+ warframes.

You mentioning sci fi being the draw, may be part of why I wasn't too enthused with the theme either. I agree with your points. I'm hoping our outlooks prove to be wrong, but they've been shaped by DE's past actions and choices.

On 2023-08-27 at 8:16 AM, megastorm said:

From what I gathered, and I maybe overshooting this, this is the story of how warframe came be with the ending showing the laugh of the man in the wall. I wanted it to be Hayden so badly but its arthur now. Either way Steve said a long time ago he wanted to do hayden but because of licensing issues he can't. And we should get all the lore we can to understand what happened and why things are the way it is. If Warframe 1999 gives us more lore about warframes and there tenno along with the man in the wall, then I don't see anything wrong. My only issue is that this lore content needs to come faster/often.

 

I see people saying it isn't warframe. Yes that is still a warframe. They aren't bulletjumping and blowing things up with onshots. They are trying to showcase a story. Who the hell wants to see a new trailer thats over in 2 mins because you gotta go fast. Settle the f down.

 

The only reason I may not make it through the telling of this storyline is the predatory practices with the heirloom stuff.

Tekken.... When people think about Tekken, the vast majority think about two characters fighting, throwing punches, kicks, combo's etc - core Tekken gameplay. They don't think about the minigames such as Tekken Bowl, Tekken Ball, or Tekken Force, all of which were fun in my opinion. Even though the add-ons did bring about a extra variety, they are rather shallow in comparison to the core gameplay mechanics and while the core gameplay is strong enough to carry the game, the add-ons are not: Without the add-ons, the game may lose some variety, but without the core gameplay, the game would fall flat.

With Warframe, the core game is Warframe gameplay. It is the movement, the gunplay and melee, the abilities, the beautiful symphony of destruction one can create with these instruments, maybe spoiler mode being thrown in there once in a blue moon. Archwings, k-drives, fishing, RJ, Necramechs, Kahl of Duty, Drifter, Duviri... they are add-ons in terms of gameplay. Lose them and the game loses some variety. Lose core Warframe gameplay and the game falls flat. 

The demo's purpose is to tease story and gameplay. Sure, there was bullet jump and sure, it seems that the sliding movement boost mechanic is used, but when considering the movement available to Warframe, the showcase was limited. There were no abilities used, save for the one that may, or may not, have been part of the cutscene. The gameplay mechanics shown during the hayden tenno gameplay with the reskinned runners were restricted and reminiscent of Kahl gameplay.

The practices regarding the Heirloom assets is nothing new, but it is more blatant and it is more exclusive due to the price. I've seen other threads in which people voice their opinions and hopefully it'll lead to changes that improves the experience of the player.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

On 2023-08-27 at 9:50 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

"Content island" is such a low effort critique. It's more gameplay, I don't care that it doesn't tie into everything I've done for the last 10 years. I play it, enjoy it and move on. I'm glad I don't NEED to revisit every single piece of content they've made to stay relevant. 

This...so much this.

The game has over 10 years of content. Can you imagine the RAGE players would have if every update tied into every piece of content?

Even MMOs eventually let old content die.

Just imagine if every expansion and/or Nightwave week 100% forced us to:

- Run __ mission type __ times.

- Cracks __ Relics

- Complete __ Invasions.

- Play Archwing missions ___ times / complete __ challenges.

- Play missions using specific Pets, Companions.

- Complete __ Kuva Siphon & Floods.

- Accure/collect __ focus / Play as Operator for __ time.

- Complete a Riven or __.

- Do ___ bounties on each and every landscape map.

- Clear Eidolons __ times.

- Complete ___ K-Drive races / challenges

- Clear Orbs __ times.

- Do ___ Arbitrations

- Do __ number of Grineer Railjack mission then __ number of Corpus Railjack

- Complete/Progress with a Lich / Sister

- Do __ Steel Path missions.

- Play Kahl Missions __ times.

- Complete the Archon Hunt.

- Clear __ Duviri runs

Like...the game would be absolute chore. Especially since a lot of players don't like certain areas of content. 

If every expansion tied it all together we'd get the Monkey's Paw of a Curse that is Corpus Railjack and the new Lich/Sister finale...but for everything...

I'm glad DE keeps the more radical gameplay seperate.

When I need a break from base WF but want my WF fix...I can pop into Duviri, Kahl, or Railjack. 

When I want the core experience...I have everything else in game pretty much.

That said...

I was kind of hoping WF 1999 was gonna be a stand alone game. An offline prequel game.

[Surbusken]

I don't know, I see both sides.

Like for duviri for me personally, I think the batman arkham 2009 2D roll and slash console mechanics were just tragic and so I was actually happy I had the option to totally skip it, which I have. Plus, I'd rather play operator.

I was worried some of the drifter intrinsics would be for universal gameplay but because they weren't, I have never set foot in duviri and don't plan to either.

With how uninspired the gameplay often is, such as khal maps, I am a huge supporter of being able to skip content.

[Kaggelos]

My only issue with a supposed Add-On content is Railjack not being part of the main startchart nodes, and is instead its own separate system. 

Also both upcoming updates look promising imo ^^

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Zero_029 said:

 

I was kind of hoping WF 1999 was gonna be a stand alone game. An offline prequel game.

It looks good enough to be a standalone. I would love a proto-warframe game starring the original cast. 

[kamisama85]

On 2023-08-27 at 6:50 PM, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

The game doesn't need to go backwards gameplay wise to fix these issues though. Kahl missions in particular are a perfect example. Less mechanics for everything.

I don't understand why this would be viewed as going "backwards". Is it because we have to deal with a character with more primitive means of engaging the enemy?
Are you implying that the only way the game moves forward is if the room nukes itself the moment we log in?

[NocheLuz]

Warframe 1999... More like Warframe 2000 unless it is a time reset like in Duviri, we'll start in 2000 if the Trailer is the start of the quest and not the end. It is shown that in the Trailer we are already at 11:55 pm on 31 December 1999 and when we meet "Albrecht Entrati" the time is already at 11:59 pm and the Trailer end when we get into the next day, the year 2000.

[Silligoose]

On 2023-08-27 at 4:50 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

"Content island" is such a low effort critique. It's more gameplay, I don't care that it doesn't tie into everything I've done for the last 10 years. I play it, enjoy it and move on. I'm glad I don't NEED to revisit every single piece of content they've made to stay relevant. 

Many players who enjoy progression elements in games, prefer for their progression to retain value above and beyond the content it was tied to ie they prefer that the weapons/armour/items they attain in a Borderlands/Fallout/Monster Hunter expansion to be usable outside of those expansions. Likewise they prefer to be able to use the weapons/armour/items attained outside of the expansion content, to be usable inside the expansion. 

I would go so far as to say it would be ridiculous if the games mentioned made their expansions content islands as DE tends to do and the expansions would be poorly received if they were. It is fine and well to have some add-ons and mini-games, but I'm of the opinion DE focusses too much on mini-games and neglects the gameplay that attracted and hooked the vast majority of players.

On 2023-08-27 at 5:26 PM, DrBorris said:

I think it is important to note that the next two updates are core-Warframe focused.

Also 1999 seems to have full Warframe movement and abilities (to some degree).

I am happy for the updates that are more core-Warfrane focussed, but the joy was dampened when DE mentioned Warframe 1999 is the future we are heading towards AND the bigger expansion, as DE has shown a proclivity for neglecting core-Warframe in favour of a mini-game they are working on. In that moment I thought back on the core-Warframe content that was released in the last few years (eg Archon Hunts) and how DE stated the content being lack-lustre is due to their focus on Duviri. Issues spoken of in the AMA on Reddit (eg getting stuck on corners) was again shoved to the wayside to focus on Duviri. DE blamed neglecting core-Warframe content (and the lack of innovation, quality and polish) on being busy with their newest content island at the time, This seems to be the cycle repeating.

It is early days yet, but the demo shown gives me the feeling it will be quite restrictive in loadout, potentially in play, despite the bullet jump and what appeared to be the occasional movement-boost via slide.

On 2023-08-27 at 6:16 PM, DrBorris said:

Also... the next two updates are core Warframe. It's not fair to pant a picture of DE moving away from core Warframe, or continually taking us out of Warframe, when they are continually giving us core Warframe.

That is the picture DE is painting by way of their words and actions. The majority of their focus appears to be on non-frame content, to the detriment of core-Warframe as noted above.

On 2023-08-28 at 12:26 AM, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think they made a game (core Warframe) with a wealth of gameplay customisation options, then its players didn’t bother utilising it to its maximum. Maybe DE’ve stopped caring about the part of the game that gets simplified to a few choices by players looking to grind fast for things they won’t use and who’ve convinced themselves that there’s only a few ways worth playing

I still think DE’ll expand our arsenal more horizontally and adjust for the variety of ways we can play with balance passes that a majority of players won’t understand the purpose behind, but players always complain when a new thing doesn’t push them higher and wonder why anything else exists while thinking the point of Warframe is a glorified cookie clicker, so I wouldn’t be surprised if DE gave up on the core game that simply wasn’t being used (something I was not expecting). But as long as they leave the core intact and don’t twist it towards the narrow definition of “Power fantasy” that floats around, I’m not too bothered to explore new things that they try, and to be honest, I think I’ve already got enough stuff to get and use in the core game

I can't be 100% sure what DE's motivations are for gameplay-pivots, though I'm confident part of it is to encourage player spending - when new content requires of players to use new assets, because the old assets can't be used due to [enter arbitrary reason here, such as "interference fields"], players are encouraged to skip the grind associated for new required asset, especially if the grind is frustrating/boring. Part of me thinks the current devs want to try their hand at their own thing instead of Warframe, building their vision within the game. Part of me thinks they don't know how to address the runaway power creep in core-Warframe, so the way they go about bringing a greater level of challenge is by way of a gameplay pivot that nullifies (some) progress and thereby nullifies (some) imbalances, thereby allowing them to more easily present a greater level of challenge than what is experienced in core-Warframe at lategame/endgame.

DE appears to continue to expand our arsenal both horizontally and vertically, but imbalances and homogenization options decrease the value of both in my opinion.

On 2023-08-27 at 12:53 PM, SneakyErvin said:

But it uhm is actual WF. Practically WF1999 goes back to the roots of the game by the looks of it, with some later editions in it aswell like the parkour system (the 1999 gameplay uses bullet jump). Which is one of the most brilliant ideas they can go with in order to provide players with a more balanced WF experience without removing the "powah fantsi!" so many people wanna keep as is. In the end it really depends what they wanna use WF1999 for. Will it be a platform for a new balanced "star chart"? Or just some one off content piece? Who knows.

The demo gave me the impression it will be quite restrictive in terms of loadout choices and gameplay, despite the bullet jump and what appears to be the movement-boost mechanic with a tap of slide.

I'm of the opinion a more balanced experience, or a greater level of challenge, can be presented without having to go the extremes DE has with Grendel Missions, TNW or Kahl. SP was DE's opportunity to do it, but instead they went for some of the laziest balancing decisions I have seen in a game, showing little care for balance. 

As an advocate for having an optional challenging mode that doesn't throw as much progress away as DE's previous attempts, I would be happy if it ends up being a "new" Star Chart with rebalancing, in which much of our progress still has value alongside some sort of stat squish or some other balancing mechanics that SP quite frankly deserved, but DE likes to take shortcuts. We'll see how it plays out.

On 2023-08-28 at 12:40 AM, trst said:

Except so long as it follows the exact same trend as literally every single other thing in the game where some form of gear/progression is going to come out of here into the rest of the game then it's no different from anything else.

If this whole 1999 is a small slice of one-off content and/or only has a few things to grind for then it's no more or less of an "island" as anything else. After all if it was a new planet, tileset, mission type, or new system like Infested Liches then those are all ALSO "islands" the moment you've finished their grinds.

 

Seriously, if "content islands" exist in Warframe then every single part of it from the very first update is one of these "islands".

"Some form of gear/progression" isn't enough of parameter to prevent something from being a content island - it depends on how much of the gear and progression converts into the rest of the game and how it interacts with the rest of the systems. Frames, companions, primary-, secondary-, and melee weapons are not "content islands" as they are beneficial and used in the vast majority of content. They form part of core-Warframe. RJ, on the other hand, is a content island, as its progression system, farm and use is almost completely limited to its island. Having a few frames, or a few weapons be attainable from RJ missions doesn't change that. Drifter is a content island. Archwing is a content island. Lose the content islands and you lose some variety and some bland gameplay. Lose frame-gameplay and the game falls flat, because frame-gameplay is core-Warframe and the add-ons are not strong enough, or good enough, to carry this game.

[trst]

1 minute ago, Silligoose said:

"Some form of gear/progression" isn't enough of parameter to prevent something from being a content island - it depends on how much of the gear and progression converts into the rest of the game and how it interacts with the rest of the systems. Frames, companions, primary-, secondary-, and melee weapons are not "content islands" as they are beneficial and used in the vast majority of content. They form part of core-Warframe. RJ, on the other hand, is a content island, as its progression system, farm and use is almost completely limited to its island. Having a few frames, or a few weapons be attainable from RJ missions doesn't change that. Drifter is a content island. Archwing is a content island. Lose the content islands and you lose some variety and some bland gameplay. Lose frame-gameplay and the game falls flat, because frame-gameplay is core-Warframe and the add-ons are not strong enough, or good enough, to carry this game.

Except taking gear/progression out of something into the rest of the game is all everything does.

Railjack is no different as even if the RJ itself is only used in RJ content (and technically quests now) it has a lot of weapons (all Lich weapons mind you), some frames, mastery, a number of Intrinsic upgrades apply outside of it, and even the crew/on-call system (which is a massive feature for how broken it is). Plus it benefits from all the gear you got everywhere else that you bring into it.

And technically if we want to consider "island status" as how much something is tied into the rest of the game then RJ is even least "island" of all content. As in all of Railjack you get to utilize your entire loadout including Archwing, Mech, companions, and Operator. Where the entire rest of the game prevents the use of one or more of these. You can't field a mech against Kela for farming Saryn nor can I use a Mech in Mirror Defense for Citrine.

Also Archwing and Kahl is the only content in the game that doesn't have that "core" warframe gameplay. Everything else, even the majority of a Duviri run, feature run-of-the-mill on foot frame gameplay.

 

So at best the only islands in the game is Archwing and Kahl even they they have the major tie in that everything else has. But if you want to consider things like RJ and Duviri to be islands then literally everything in the game is.

[Worfhald]

Nobody here knows, even in passing, about the Dark Sector? You seriously don't see the connection within the game that was the mother that gave birth to the warframe universe?.. If you don't know what it is, look for it in google and look at any gameplay to see if you recognize any element there.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

10 hours ago, kamisama85 said:

I don't understand why this would be viewed as going "backwards". Is it because we have to deal with a character with more primitive means of engaging the enemy?
Are you implying that the only way the game moves forward is if the room nukes itself the moment we log in?

There are a million ways forward, none of them include using only one type of weapon. Aoe is a lazy argument that is thrown around and has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The demo gave me the impression it will be quite restrictive in terms of loadout choices and gameplay, despite the bullet jump and what appears to be the movement-boost mechanic with a tap of slide.

I'm of the opinion a more balanced experience, or a greater level of challenge, can be presented without having to go the extremes DE has with Grendel Missions, TNW or Kahl. SP was DE's opportunity to do it, but instead they went for some of the laziest balancing decisions I have seen in a game, showing little care for balance. 

As an advocate for having an optional challenging mode that doesn't throw as much progress away as DE's previous attempts, I would be happy if it ends up being a "new" Star Chart with rebalancing, in which much of our progress still has value alongside some sort of stat squish or some other balancing mechanics that SP quite frankly deserved, but DE likes to take shortcuts. We'll see how it plays out.

We start the game the same way. It is too early to judge because we just dont know what the progression will look like in the 1999 version.

I actually dont see any solution that involves the current power which results in a balanced and more challenging gameplay. We are just magnitudes beyond the power we actually need for anything. CC is another issues aswell. I mean, DE have already covered it themselves, they dont want to take away the power fantasy, which is why creating new modes is the solution. If you think SP could have been balanced in another way examples would be nice.

5 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

There are a million ways forward, none of them include using only one type of weapon. Aoe is a lazy argument that is thrown around and has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Saying "a million ways forward" and providing zero examples, yup that sure is valid. And AoE in all shapes and forms is a valid argument since it can trivialize full maps no matter what they actually throw at us, unless they make everything new CC or power immune. At which point going back to basics is a better option to allow for a start over for balance that allows for players to involve frame and weapons. But people dont want that because they want their self imposed idea of "power fantasy" intact.

There is a reason nearly all other games out there reset things at seasons or rely on constant linear progress across expansions that allows them to throw away the old if it goes wrong.

[sunderthefirmament]

19 hours ago, kamisama85 said:

I don't understand why this would be viewed as going "backwards". Is it because we have to deal with a character with more primitive means of engaging the enemy?
Are you implying that the only way the game moves forward is if the room nukes itself the moment we log in?

Consider archwings and k drives. Why would you use a k drive instead of an archwing?  Most players wouldn’t, and don’t, unless they haven’t unlocked archwings or DE forces them to (quest, NW challenge, MR). 
 

I wouldn’t ever choose to use or engage with Kahl except when DE sweetens the pot with exclusive rewards.  If WF1999 is similarly pared down, I don’t see it being appealing to me.  I’m going to withhold judgement until we know more, but I’m approaching WF1999 with the same skepticism I gave Kahl.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

We start the game the same way. It is too early to judge because we just dont know what the progression will look like in the 1999 version.

I actually dont see any solution that involves the current power which results in a balanced and more challenging gameplay. We are just magnitudes beyond the power we actually need for anything. CC is another issues aswell. I mean, DE have already covered it themselves, they dont want to take away the power fantasy, which is why creating new modes is the solution. If you think SP could have been balanced in another way examples would be nice.

Saying "a million ways forward" and providing zero examples, yup that sure is valid. And AoE in all shapes and forms is a valid argument since it can trivialize full maps no matter what they actually throw at us, unless they make everything new CC or power immune. At which point going back to basics is a better option to allow for a start over for balance that allows for players to involve frame and weapons. But people dont want that because they want their self imposed idea of "power fantasy" intact.

There is a reason nearly all other games out there reset things at seasons or rely on constant linear progress across expansions that allows them to throw away the old if it goes wrong.

Saying there are a million ways to shake up gameplay is more useful then just saying "but AOE"