Warframe was amazing before coptering/bjump and so was Railjack before it was made easy

[rockscl]

Am just a grandpa with pink colored glasses or someone agrees with me?

DE burned his brain trying to make everyone happy but in the end they made so much exploration trivial, made everything easy and turned amazingly designed maps into a flat surface.

[(NSW)Greybones]

I’m mixed on Bulletjumping; I used to think it made things too easy, then I started getting into actual fights and found it extremely useful as a positioning and escape and approach tool and that sometimes it messes up some crucial distance or throws me around a corner and into the fray too fast before I’m ready or got a sense of what’s coming.

I wouldn’t mind if the Hobbled key disabled it or there was a mod that disabled it in exchange for an alternative effect (as suggested in an alternative thread) and I was forced to wall traverse, but at the moment I’m finding the gameplay a good mix of bulletjumping, bouncing around off walls and the environment, and groundplay.

Railjack on the other hand…. I have problems with intrinsics forcing me into higher-level content and making the stuff I’m doing too easy without me doing anything other than simply progressing, and Duviri echoes that. I didn’t get a chance to really play when there were a lot more things that could go wrong, but it sounded pretty chaotic

[RichardKam]

I think you are a grandpa with pink colored glasses.

Railjack 1.0 was a complete failure. The entire modding system spoke a different language without any benefit (i.e. dirac, for example, which become useless after you maxed everything and cannot be translated back to your main game). There was no crewmate and it was impossible to do any mission solo. The turret was mounted on the sides making aiming and firing a hellish task. Omni repairing used the old and abandoned "mining 1.0" mechanic for no particular reason - again reinventing the wheel. Overall it was practically impossible to do any mission, not even the first Earth mission, solo. You entered the first mission. You go to the turret and left the pilot seat. 30 seconds later your ship is on fire. You repaired one hazard and run out of resources. 20 seconds later your ship is about to blow up. After less than 3 minutes you failed your mission and cephalon cy called you a moron. 

The only way to do it was ironically to park your ship at the far end of the map and use your archwing, or co-op with other people who, most of the time, were as clueless as you, because the game actually never explained how your ship works (hint: you should hit the open space node on Earth before anything else). Also good luck with all the bugs and host migration in railjack.

There were reasons why Railjack 1.0 was scrapped so quickly and had the shortest lifespan of any update in the history of Warframe. 

[KitMeHarder]

I didn't play the game before bullet jumping was introduced, but I can 1000% tell you I would not have played/be playing Warframe without it. Warframe has a lot going for it, but the parkour system is the thing that sets it above all of it's contemporaries. Mobility is one the most empowering things you can give to a player. (And if you want to play without bullet jumping, you can still do it.)

If by Railjack 1.0 you mean the age of Munitions Vortex/Tether, then I agree. I feel back then the mode was much more rewarding to play. I was also fine with flux energy and how avionics deviated from mods.... But there's quite a lot of QoL changes that Railjack 2.0 brought that needed to happen. It'd take a long time to layout the details, but I think a hybridization of the 2 would be the best option.

[Genitive]

4 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I think you are a grandpa with pink colored glasses.

Railjack 1.0 was a complete failure. The entire modding system spoke a different language without any benefit (i.e. dirac, for example, which become useless after you maxed everything and cannot be translated back to your main game). There was no crewmate and it was impossible to do any mission solo. The turret was mounted on the sides making aiming and firing a hellish task. Omni repairing used the old and abandoned "mining 1.0" mechanic for no particular reason - again reinventing the wheel. Overall it was practically impossible to do any mission, not even the first Earth mission, solo. You entered the first mission. You go to the turret and left the pilot seat. 30 seconds later your ship is on fire. You repaired one hazard and run out of resources. 20 seconds later your ship is about to blow up. After less than 3 minutes you failed your mission and cephalon cy called you a moron. 

The only way to do it was ironically to park your ship at the far end of the map and use your archwing, or co-op with other people who, most of the time, were as clueless as you, because the game actually never explained how your ship works (hint: you should hit the open space node on Earth before anything else). Also good luck with all the bugs and host migration in railjack.

There were reasons why Railjack 1.0 was scrapped so quickly and had the shortest lifespan of any update in the history of Warframe. 

Nice that someone gets it.

[0_The_F00l]

Bullet jump is one of the (many) things that seperated warframe from other looter shooters.

I doubt I would have stuck with it for so long if bullet jump didn't exist.

But i do agree it makes the tilesets just a blur , only the recent large tilesets like zariman can be noticed without getting in the way.

Railjack I have mixed feelings on , i liked the older avionics and complexity , I am not a fan of slotting in mandatory mods and then forgetting about it.

But i do enjoy the ease of starting and completing missions solo thanks to all the changes.

[SneakyErvin]

Cant speak for coptering or pre-bullet jump since I didnt play then. But I do agree with RJ, it has gotten severely dumbed down in too many ways since the initial release.

1. Crew is just OP.

2. RJ TTL options are equally as OP as the crew, which practically trivializes the whole mode without you really having to do anything.

3. Buffing the floor of components to end up with minimum stats equal to old 90% rolls was a massive downgrade to the system and its longevity. Valence fusion didnt help either.

4. Throwing random star chart modes on the RJ mode itself and hoping they'd stick was also a horrible approach. Especially since RJ rewards are tied to the singular RJ mission and not to each rotation in endless modes like defense and survival. In short, no reason to run survival, defense or orphix to farm things like holokeys.

5. Bum rush side objectives where nothing but the objective matters (ice asteroid, derelict and so on). Rush side objective icon and then omni out. Little immersion and engagement. Not a new thing that was a result of changes, it has always been part of RJ but still sucks in design.

[Lilybun]

I do miss the old zorencopter sometimes but the game is undoubtedly better with the current movement system. The difference between those who knew how to copter and those who didn't was wild. Like 5 minutes of running through empty corridors kind of wild. Not exactly a great experience for most.

 

 

[rockscl]

hace 12 horas, RichardKam dijo:

I think you are a grandpa with pink colored glasses.

Railjack 1.0 was a complete failure. The entire modding system spoke a different language without any benefit (i.e. dirac, for example, which become useless after you maxed everything and cannot be translated back to your main game). There was no crewmate and it was impossible to do any mission solo. The turret was mounted on the sides making aiming and firing a hellish task. Omni repairing used the old and abandoned "mining 1.0" mechanic for no particular reason - again reinventing the wheel. Overall it was practically impossible to do any mission, not even the first Earth mission, solo. You entered the first mission. You go to the turret and left the pilot seat. 30 seconds later your ship is on fire. You repaired one hazard and run out of resources. 20 seconds later your ship is about to blow up. After less than 3 minutes you failed your mission and cephalon cy called you a moron. 

The only way to do it was ironically to park your ship at the far end of the map and use your archwing, or co-op with other people who, most of the time, were as clueless as you, because the game actually never explained how your ship works (hint: you should hit the open space node on Earth before anything else). Also good luck with all the bugs and host migration in railjack.

There were reasons why Railjack 1.0 was scrapped so quickly and had the shortest lifespan of any update in the history of Warframe. 

i used to run higher level missions solo, it was a real challenge, nevertheless cy called me a moron too 

[rockscl]

hace 8 horas, 0_The_F00l dijo:

Bullet jump is one of the (many) things that seperated warframe from other looter shooters.

I doubt I would have stuck with it for so long if bullet jump didn't exist.

But i do agree it makes the tilesets just a blur , only the recent large tilesets like zariman can be noticed without getting in the way.

Railjack I have mixed feelings on , i liked the older avionics and complexity , I am not a fan of slotting in mandatory mods and then forgetting about it.

But i do enjoy the ease of starting and completing missions solo thanks to all the changes.

 

for me map design had two shinning stages, one was during vanilla parkour, acquiring navigating coords in void tilesets, climbing to hidden spots and learning to open secret rooms, then there was a time when they added syndicates and it took us to wander every secret corner or every map, after that, bullet jump happened, which surely added a lot to warframe´s personality, but i really dislike how it killed the thrill of discovering the secrets of every tileset

 

im not naive about this, warframe thrived and DE took steps that led to its success, probably theres no way to reclaim that experience at this point

Edited September 13, 2023 by rockscl

[Hypernaut1]

Yes and no. There were definitely things I liked about WF back then, but there's also so much more I like about it now.

In the end I realize that the devs can't please everyone. And I'm still having fun

Edited September 13, 2023 by Hypernaut1

[Lucabaduka]

10 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Yes and no. There were definitely things I liked about WF back then, but there's also so much more I like about it now.

In the end I realize that the devs can't please everyone. And I'm still having fun

Basically this. I do miss the 1.0 movement system, jumping and pressing e with a tonbo and flying across the map. Everything was more dangerous and the power disparity between players wasn't the canyon it is now. Everything was slower-paced; maps were built more for exploration and maximisation (esp void keys), and less for speedruns.

I liked that game and miss it greatly, but I'm still playing Warframe now. Who knows if I still would be if Warframe hadn't changed?

[(PSN)Unstar]

I play Warframe because it's fun, not for a challenge.  Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy a good challenge, but in my opinion Warframe isn't a game that is well-suited to provide enjoyable challenges.  There is simply too much possibility space in regards to what a Warframe player can bring to the table for DE to design balanced challenges.  It's part of why Warframe's bosses are generally lackluster and rarely passable, because they have yet to find a way to make a boss fight that still functions without throwing 80% of the player's toolkit out the window.

If you want a challenge, I'd recommend playing a different game.  Or barring that, you can always create your own challenge by bringing a less optimal build to the table.

Anyway, as for bullet-jumping, it's fun.  In fact, if Warframe's movement didn't feel the way it does, there's very little chance I'd still be playing Warframe, because that's the main thing it brings to the table that no other game I've played has come close to providing.

Edited September 13, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

Relays would become a no go zone without bullet jump for me, not everything has a fast travel point.  

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Cant speak for coptering or pre-bullet jump since I didnt play then. But I do agree with RJ, it has gotten severely dumbed down in too many ways since the initial release.

1. Crew is just OP.

2. RJ TTL options are equally as OP as the crew, which practically trivializes the whole mode without you really having to do anything.

 

Maybe DE will make steel path railjack some day (iirc they did talk about it before but mentioned that it would be semi-hard to balance stuff so it doesn't become impossible). 

I actually love the crew (ESPECIALLY THE REPAIR GUY), but I do agree that a lot of times they are pretty op, at least until they get raided and you actually have to revive them.

[Prexades]

Railjack was actually fun with a group 4 players working together. Of course these days it is easier to herd cats than find players cooperating.

[LuckyCharm]

As someone who did play during coptering etc, it was actually great back then, once parcour 2.0 came out the game lost a lot of its charm since wallrunning became that weird hopping, and you no longer ran places, you had people twirling around like ballet dancers everywhere with bullet jumps. Dont get me wrong, the improvements are better in most ways (other than challenge rooms in the void etc being near pointless now) but they could cain so much more enjoyment for me if they made the animations more combat focused. If i were a ninja i wouldnt be twirling my way through maps, id be swinging, bouncing off walls etc, and i definitely wouldnt be hopping. Wall run all the way. 

But i do agree, railjack 1.0 was a trashfire. Its still a trash fire, but its like a trash fire in a waste paper basket rather than a dumpster. 

[KitMeHarder]

19 hours ago, RichardKam said:

The only way to do it was ironically to park your ship at the far end of the map and use your archwing, or co-op with other people who, most of the time, were as clueless as you

That doesn't really match my experiences. Sure, when the mode was new the best way to play was to ditch your ship and to use the Cyngas to kill everything. But once your ship was maxed out, soloing missions was easy and fun. I have fond memories of going around and nuking stuff with Munitions Vortex.

And AI crew or not, the on-foot parts were just as tedious as they are now, as the AI is horrendous at reliably destroying the reactors. IMO the biggest flaw of the mode is that they focused too much on the on-foot parts, and not enough on the, you know... Railjack. There's more than one reason Gian Point was so beloved. If DE just added evergreen rewards and significantly cut back the amount of on-foot parts, IMO Railjack might be popular enough to dedicate resources to again.

[TARINunit9]

19 hours ago, RichardKam said:

There was no crewmate and it was impossible to do any mission solo.

Me, who 100%ed every Railjack 1.0 mission solo

In all seriousness, aside from some minor semi-errors in your post (old turrets were on the side, yes, but at Gunning lvl2 they gained 360 aiming just like they have today) you are absolutely correct and Railjack 1.0 was not ready for prime time in any way. Too many resources you had to mess with, too many fires you had to put out (including the literal ones). And for the most part we are also much slower and it was miserable, until you unlocked the super slide and then every mission was an instant cakewalk

Edited September 14, 2023 by TARINunit9

[RichardKam]

3小时前 , (XBOX)Upl0rdYT 说:

Maybe DE will make steel path railjack some day (iirc they did talk about it before but mentioned that it would be semi-hard to balance stuff so it doesn't become impossible). 

I actually love the crew (ESPECIALLY THE REPAIR GUY), but I do agree that a lot of times they are pretty op, at least until they get raided and you actually have to revive them.

Before doing steel path railjack, DE should decant most of the game modes to railjack (syndicate, nightmare, alert, invasion) so people have more reasons to go there, although I think DE is reluctant because it will dilute the match making between different starcharts. Void storm is a good move. We can finally crack relics in RJ and all the void sinks make the experience stupidly chaotic and fun. 

But seriously, before anything else, they should completely revamp corpus jack and do infested or sentient railjack first. 

Crewmate being OP. Well they were really OP only in the sense that they were practically aimbot. When it comes to defense and pilot, they are simply not that competent. I think DE did work on their piloting so now they can almost reliably shoot the radiator (like, 75% of the time). But I understand why they are kind of OP because otherwise we will be back to railjack 1.0. Maybe a little tweak of their aimbot accuracy down to like 80% will balance things out.

[Lion]

To be honest I'm a bit mixed on bullet jumps. I think they're fun, but I also think that in a round about way it limits the potential of the game. 

DE doesn't really need to focus on actually making enemy AI challenging because we're both hilariously OP and hyper mobile, so they resort to BS like magnetic procs and enemy over health ignoring literally everything we do. 

Bullet jumping also really limits DE when it comes to things like conclave, though it was already underpopulated before bullet jumping, it was firmly killed with that. Nobody likes shooting at spastic crack monkeys flying through the air at a million miles an hour. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Lion

[NeoMephisto]

On 2023-09-12 at 11:50 PM, rockscl said:

Am just a grandpa with pink colored glasses or someone agrees with me?

DE burned his brain trying to make everyone happy but in the end they made so much exploration trivial, made everything easy and turned amazingly designed maps into a flat surface.

I think you're pretty on point, the original simplicity and "less freedom" gave the game a slower pace that allowed for more exploration and made the maps feel way larger;

You don't even see people walk around the map, they just perma hold down shift and spam ctrl spacebar, I for sure think it's made movement too trivial.

I really would like for them to eventually move the game back towards the original vision, of like a more tactical approach to missions, weapons, warframes; really emphasizing the Ninja aspect of what the game was supposed to be, now it's more like:

"Erm, and then I press 5 and void dash wiz mein opera-tor, I then quickly switch to my cool frrrricking secondary so I can prrrroyme ze enemies w/ damage dealing serious evil deadly damage multipliers so I can deal more damage, in turn, dealing more damage and allowing me to damage the enemies with my damage. I just love damage. Damage, damage and more damage, I just love dealing damage and DPSing, I love being the DPS, and like seeing numbers on my screen letting me know I am doing damage, because I wanna be sure that damage is being done and that I am the one doing it and-" (you get the point)
 
And it's like, wow, cool; let me get my pillow while you're doing that because there is nothing more tiring, soul draining, and depressing than wanting to have a cool Tactical Sci-Fi Bushido Nippon LED Samurai experience only to be met with INSANE power creep that makes every character feel generic, spammy, thoughtless, etc, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

(Especially in the hands of people who are more interested in "winning" than finding their OWN fun in any particular experience)

Even if you try to enjoy the game's original fantasy, you can never share it with anyone besides friends who are willing to essentially nerf themselves to have a more enjoyable experience, and when mentioning this you'll always be met with the same "Erm, you're just old dude... you're old and, you're old... and like old"

But I don't think that's "just it";

Something that unfortunately happens in every game is once it gets big enough it starts attracting all the lowest common denominator type people, and these things just LOVE efficiency and BIG NUMBAS, these are your min maxxers, your efficiency farmers, your optimizers, whatever you wanna call it; They are happy to just go through the game on auto pilot, getting all the EPIC GAMER LOOT until they've optimized all the fun out of the game, no regard for the original vision, no regard for consistency, be it in the story, the artistic direction and visual identity; (Wing ephemeras, New Prime Access', New frames, Deluxe Skins...etc)

These people just consume all this stuff such that there is no incentive to stop doing it on DE's end; I know they're just trying to make the playerbase happy, but they've landed themselves into a feedback loop of:

>Create a lowest common denominator moth lamp feature (Ex: Damage Multiplication/Stacking, i.e Power Creeping )
>Those people flock to the game
>They are now the majority because of the causal chain you've created
>"We can't go back now! Our players wouldn't like it!"
>Keep pumping out the same type of content; digging yourself further down the hole
>Repeat

They need to do the same stuff they're doing with the new story quests with core game systems, they know how to take risks, they know how to surprise people and make things work; That's the whole reason this game exists, but they seem so afraid or just disinterested in addressing the fact that the current state of the game is:

A solid foundation with genius combat, and great potential; getting drowned by over-designed, soulless skins, characters, weapons, and game systems.

Excalibur, Rhino, Mag, Ash, most characters from 2013-2015 don't belong on the same game as things like Khora, Khora Prime, Wisp Prime, Kullervo, Octavia, Voruna, and so many more

Those aren't warframes, they feel like random mobile game characters, they've completely swerved away from what attracted so many people in the first place, the designs don't feel purposeful anymore. They're poorly slapped together in order to awe as much impressionable redditors as they can; I love this game and I just wanna be able to rest easy knowing the DEV's understand their own game, and keep it on the right path. I really don't wanna see it eventually die of Tencent like other games.

Just dial everything down, people are resistant to change but they never actually QUIT, they just complain and act like they'll do it but if you actually rework the core gameplay to be more tactical ninja instead of power trip wizards this game will be closer to what it's meant to be

[Nanika]

Frankly, the game has improved just as much as it has regressed.

The reason I keep coming back to the game is the mobility, but the whole "slow down and be tactical" thing went out the door when the decision was made to go with horde shooter over team deathmatch reskin #999999. There's a reason that Dog Days, Rathuum, and The Index are generally interacted with begrudgingly.

And this is from someone who actually likes The Index and has more than 5 Prodman posters.
If you want tactical, methodical, and frankly molasses-paced movement, Naked Steel Path is right there, right alongside endurance runs.

 

As for Failjack, me just calling it that says all I really have to. The less I have to interact with it the better, because NGL it feels like an even worse deliberate waste of time than leveling Necramechs six times just for mastery, then another six just to fully mod it. Gotta sell those forma bundles and affinity boosters, after all.

[-Age]

Truthfully, the game has not regressed at all.  Still going strong at the 10 year mark. Moreover, the teams that are involved with the story, for instance the third story ark.  Aim for new players, seasoned veterans, and everyone in between to have access to this new content right from the get. I forget what U# came out to have dev abilities granted to the player.  However, despite my attitude at the time and asking myself "why"!  I fully understand now. They are trying make things better for the "new player" while catering to the veteran.  Additionally, keeping with the pace of the gaming industry as a whole.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Maybe DE will make steel path railjack some day (iirc they did talk about it before but mentioned that it would be semi-hard to balance stuff so it doesn't become impossible). 

I actually love the crew (ESPECIALLY THE REPAIR GUY), but I do agree that a lot of times they are pretty op, at least until they get raided and you actually have to revive them.

Yeah if they can come up with some idea for it that doesnt make it pointless. I mean RJ fissures were nice, for a while until all one-time items were obtained, then after that there was no reason going back since regular and SP fissures exsist. One thing they need to do is add RJ loot rolls to endless modes in RJ, so each rotations rolls 1 RJ reward and 1 regular rotation reward. So we can get holokeys, RJ materials etc. when doing something like Survival in RJ or Void Storms.