Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, HiFixx said:

I'm only replying to this piece here, cause you did make a solid point on everything else, but take into consideration the scale of what Hydroid's going to be doing now. I get that DE could've made something work for puddle, or even just merge it with his 2nd as that seems like a popular choice by the community, even I'm on board with them on making it work like that. Realistically though, it opens up to some bad habits that DE considers a big no-no, like being AFK. They nerfed Wukong for that exact reason, his 1st ability gave a lot of players the habit of going AFK while the clone went to work. It got gutted alongside AoE weapons, so going AFK is a lot harder to do. Now imagine what would happen if they had left undertow. It would just be going right back to square 1 again, with players wanting to go AFK over using their neurons. I get that not everyone does this, but a good chunk of players enjoy the "play and not play the game" route, and DE's taking their past mistakes into consideration to avoid it from happening a 2nd time. Not that plunder might give players some new bad habits, but we'll just have to wait and see.

I’ll be honest, I’m impressed at your willingness to exercise more tact than I; I wasn’t exactly kind with what I said or implied.

I mean… yeah. It had the potential to really AFK if it was made too good. I guess that was figured into their decisions as well.

It’s just…. god dammit. Those players barely need the gentlest of nudges to boot up the game to go AFK, and they will find ways to do so however possible; the game just lets them do what they really want a game to let them do. Which isn’t even necessarily a problem until I have to avoid multiplayer because you can’t throw a stone without hitting one of them (though there must be a way to segregate the players who boot up a game to not play it and those who engage in a sleeker way than clunky recruiting)

And now we’re getting an ability that was most likely considered how to make better while still preserving what makes it unique and could have been elevated beyond it’s admittedly-old design (was it before Parkour 2.0…? I can’t remember), and the solution was to replace it with something dumbed down in ways that are less likely to be exploited or abused. I think Wuclone (and the crew and anything else that fights alongside me) is a great active customizeable teammate and is more than just potential “You go ahead and play the game for me”, and lets me play with someone who also wants to play alongside me instead of taking over, and I’m glad they figured out how to keep him around.

Dammit. The changes are made anyways, and they may or may not be liked. Ultimately I just don’t know what new Hydroid will be like, maybe I’ll like him anyways, but I’m definitely feeling that I wish I’d spent more time with the old, particularly as I’ve been looking around the forum at people who did spend a lot of time with him and the ways they used the ability

[nSane_PL]

17 hours ago, CapinPotato9711 said:

part of the benefit of using hyroid over other trapping frames is that you can place your swarm over seemingly endless range. I understand where your comeing from, but i feel there is more utility as it is

Then maybe some kind of mix? 3 or 4 tentacles in close proximity always in the same position, then other on random? I'm just thinking out loud. I really like randomization and procedural generating, but some dose of consistency makes gameplay better (for me of course).

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Tap Tidal Surge, Hold Undertow, this kind of business?

Though it comes a little late and I doubt they would go another direction now.

[PsiWarp]

With some aspect of Undertow merging into Tidal Surge, I'd like a puddle or maybe a whirlpool (to vortex in knocked down enemies) at the end of the surge.

[Raarsi]

Ah, stage 3 of grief.  Hopefully we'll reach that last stage when the rework finally hits.

[Northern_Psycho]

12 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Most of the time the squad doesn’t care because each of them are built to handle the whole multiplayer mission alone; even though puddle can shine plenty well in solo, jumping into multiplayer clutching our “It can be useful” ability just ends up with the others blowing everything up or never needing the help in the first place because they’re specifically built to not need the help because they don’t want the help. And that’s before you get into the realm of a bunch of forumers too concerned with a warped sense of ViAbIlItY to actually have some fun with a thing for what it is in a game that’s designed to allow more than just Maximum Viability

Forgive me for being a boring stick in the mud with no idea what fun is then... But I just dont see how sitting nearly immobilized as a literal puddle of water on the floor, who's only real ability is to remove you from the fight (thus stealth and survivability) and tickling enemies until they die of boredom, is fun?
While fun is subjective, dont be dishonest and imply that people who like killing enemies with their weapons and abilities are all just boring cronies who can't sit down and just have fun. Most players have fun when they play the game. Not sit inside a little puddle.

12 hours ago, SDGDen said:

also, they LITERALLY stated they wouldn't remove meatball in grendels rework SPECIFICALLY because it's a meme power and frames are allowed to have funny meme powers. why shouldn't the same exception be made for puddle?

Because Puddle is just "Sit still, and shimmy around a little with your other ability". While Meatball was "Be mobile and play the game." 
Pablo's concerns sounds pretty convincing to me tbh. Puddle either locks you down to do barely anything (since you're bound to the ground unlike Grendel's more mobile Meatball form). 
Puddle is also just an enemy denial tool that's slightly worse than Limbo i'd argue. 

Also the viability, SDGDen raised. 
Survivability - K, jump out of the puddle and see how long you last. It's Hydroids only source of survivability. He needed something that wasnt a state of permanent* i-frames.
Heals you - Tidal wave will heal him now. 
Changes your hitbox - for what goal? Survivability??
Stealth - Ok? Can i crack open vaults with it? No? I just go Wukong or Loki if i want some stealth. Why does Hydroid need a stealth ability?
I dont need stealth on Styanax, or Baruuk. Should they get a weird stealth ability stapled onto them then?

[DarkSkysz]

I had a different idea to 'save' the puddle.

Add puddle to his passive: "When you die, dissolve into a puddle of corrosive water for X seconds that damages and apply corrosive stacks to any enemy standing on it (no drowning). When the timer ends you resurrect with X% of health and that passive goes in cooldown."

[(PSN)WeaverDuck]

I have to agree with fellow Undertow enthusiasts. It is unique ability, giving crowd control options and helping survability in a way thats not just another number buff. Aside of its functionality it simply looks cool and I cannot say how many times i used it just to facetank bombard's rocket or fire eximus' aoe at the last second and be like "Oh no you don't". Silly? Sure, but also fun. Don't take fun away from this game, especialy when it harms no one and costs nothing to just implement it as tap/hold on Tidal Surge.
Bring it back. Buff it. Let us drown those damn Grineer.

Edited October 4, 2023 by (PSN)WeaverDuck

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Northern_Psycho said:

Forgive me for being a boring stick in the mud with no idea what fun is then... But I just dont see how sitting nearly immobilized as a literal puddle of water on the floor, who's only real ability is to remove you from the fight (thus stealth and survivability) and tickling enemies until they die of boredom, is fun?
While fun is subjective, dont be dishonest and imply that people who like killing enemies with their weapons and abilities are all just boring cronies who can't sit down and just have fun. Most players have fun when they play the game. Not sit inside a little puddle.

You caught me. Whenever I load into a mission as Hydroid, I cast puddle and just sit there at the start where I loaded in. It’s a lot of fun, don’t knock it until you try it! Obviously you’ll need to be at least a little open-minded about it, but I’m certain you’ll find a surprisingly familiar playstyle, since that seems to be all you can think of doing

[AegidiusF]

Le 02/10/2023 à 23:19, (PSN)RomDog2648 a dit :

it's looking like Hydroid will be able to reach 90% damage reduction with the use of some Plunder (iirc, the cap shown on stream appeared to be 1440 bonus Armor, with +300~ Corrosive damage bonus)

This was the value they'vo got on the stream, but we don't really know how this ability will scale with power strength and Corrosive procs. Perhaps we'll be able to get more than 1440 armor (I don't really know. "Wait and sea"). To be honest, I was expecting more than an armor buff.

 

Le 03/10/2023 à 00:47, SDGDen a dit :

not to even mention that even 99.9% DR won't really save you from super high level two-taps. your survivability in high-end content is determined by things like shieldgating, avoiding damage alltogether and crowd controlling enemies to prevent them from shooting you. it doesn't matter how big your armor is in steel path especially, the enemies will one-tap your health bar regardless. 

I totally agree. Undertow has many problems, but at least it gives you invulnerability (ok, I know, the worst form of invulnerability in the game), but negating damage is better than reducing damage, specially when there are TONS of damage coming from everywhere around you.

 

Le 04/10/2023 à 13:25, Northern_Psycho a dit :

Because Puddle is just "Sit still, and shimmy around a little with your other ability".

It was useful to protect you, while under fire, to cast some CC and then come back to the fight with fully recharged shields.

I never saw players casting Undertow and sitting there waiting for enemies. Undertow use was very specific and, used with Tidal Surge, could be very fun and require a lot of agility to be able to cast the abilities, quit Undertow at the right moment to use your weapons on CCed enemies. It has many problems (enery drain, reduced speed, reduced range of Tidal Surge) and some bugged synergies (as the ability to keep enemies pulled by tidal Surge in the puddle, that never worked correctly), but, in my opinion, it is better than an armor buffing ability (like Defy), but that gives no invulnerability phase and that can't protect you when in danger. Tidal surge, that gives Hydroid an invulnerability phase and removes status effect will be his main way of survivability, but it costs 50 energy points, making it's augment mod almost absolutely necessary.

 

Le 03/10/2023 à 00:47, SDGDen a dit :

 

it's literally just a fusion between a worse defy and a worse xata's whisper. 

Totally that !

Edited October 5, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[HiFixx]

11 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’ll be honest, I’m impressed at your willingness to exercise more tact than I; I wasn’t exactly kind with what I said or implied.

I mean… yeah. It had the potential to really AFK if it was made too good. I guess that was figured into their decisions as well.

It’s just…. god dammit. Those players barely need the gentlest of nudges to boot up the game to go AFK, and they will find ways to do so however possible; the game just lets them do what they really want a game to let them do. Which isn’t even necessarily a problem until I have to avoid multiplayer because you can’t throw a stone without hitting one of them (though there must be a way to segregate the players who boot up a game to not play it and those who engage in a sleeker way than clunky recruiting)

And now we’re getting an ability that was most likely considered how to make better while still preserving what makes it unique and could have been elevated beyond it’s admittedly-old design (was it before Parkour 2.0…? I can’t remember), and the solution was to replace it with something dumbed down in ways that are less likely to be exploited or abused. I think Wuclone (and the crew and anything else that fights alongside me) is a great active customizeable teammate and is more than just potential “You go ahead and play the game for me”, and lets me play with someone who also wants to play alongside me instead of taking over, and I’m glad they figured out how to keep him around.

Dammit. The changes are made anyways, and they may or may not be liked. Ultimately I just don’t know what new Hydroid will be like, maybe I’ll like him anyways, but I’m definitely feeling that I wish I’d spent more time with the old, particularly as I’ve been looking around the forum at people who did spend a lot of time with him and the ways they used the ability

The ability definitely is outdated. 1st rework, wasn’t so bad at the time since the number of frames were limited and umbra mods haven’t existed yet so people didn’t have much access to over the top DOOM level builds as they do now (unless you were playing as/with Volt or Saryn who are well known for nuking rooms) and corrosive was still a solid status effect to run, so his 1st ability augment was really good since it basically made armor seem more like toilet paper in a school bathroom that you dampen up and fling it with maximum force against a wall.

At that time, undertow was powerful. Now it’s simply outdated and rather clunky in the game’s current state. Plunder doesn’t seem like such a bad ability, since the game has shifted towards “Try not to speedrun challenge. Level: IMPOSSIBLE.”

The only thing I can really agree on is that they could’ve done the animation for plunder a bit more justice. While great that it provides plenty for Hydroid, animation wise it looks pretty boring. Not like undertow’s animation was any better, but it was an ability that screams “I’m different!” And honestly, can’t argue with that logic, it did stand out amongst all the other abilities in the game, with the exception of Limbo.

Also I appreciate the compliment. I don’t like to be heavily biased when it comes to topics such as this one, so I’m open to hearing out what people have to say. Both sides are in the right and in the wrong simultaneously. Yeah, undertow’s a pretty fun ability, but it does come with drawbacks, threat of it being an AFK machine was one of them. Yes, Plunder definitely works in-line with the current meta, but it’s basically a copy+paste of other warframe abilities that do the same thing.

And I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s too late for you to enjoy undertow. You got a good 2 weeks before it gets pulled from the game, so play to your hearts content.

 

(And yes, undertow existed before the parkour 2.0 update, back when Warframes had a stamina bar for some unknown reason)

Edited October 4, 2023 by HiFixx

[Azamagon]

After reading others' opinions and feedback, here's my tweaked feedback:

Passive

• The new one is nice, but I'd like to see one more; All Hydroid's abilities could create puddles on the ground on their impact/travel areas (including Plunder, which creates a pretty big zone around him). When Hydroid is on a puddle, he gains moderate health regen.
  • An idea for a future passive augment would be to have the puddles affect enemies in some way, like slow them down etc.

Tempest Barrage

• While this and its augment seem greatly improved, I still stand firm on that it feels a little... empty. Giving struck enemies a boosted chance to drop energy orbs sounds like it'd make it better both for Hydroid and more enticing as a Helminth option.

Tidal Surge

• The improvements it got seem really good! However, could the base energycost be changed from 50 to 25, please?
  • After all, when the augment got updated to also reduce its cost to 15, it said this in the update: New: Reduced Tidal Surge’s Energy cost from 25 to 15. So its 50 energycost doesn't seem intentional in the first place.

Undertow

Personally, I don't mind Undertow being scrapped, because I can see Pablo having massive issues making it work well with Tentacle Swarm and Tempest Barrage. However, I too will miss its survivability option. So, I'd propose this:

• Tidal Surge can now be heldcast. If heldcast, Hydroid will become a puddle. This puddle would function differently than now, however:
  • This puddle will NOT drown enemies anymore, it is ONLY for Hydroid to submerge himself. Enemies will treat Hydroid as if invisible (and he is also invincible, like before).
  • This puddleform has a moderate energydrain, moreso than current Undertow
  • Hydroid heals over time (similar to standing on his suggested passive puddles, plus an additional stronger healing effect which is strength-moddable).
  • Hydroid moves at normal walking speed in the puddle form (rather than being slowed to a crawl), and can even sprint to go as fast as sprinting!
  • When he comes out of the water, he does so with force, stunning enemies in X meter radius (range-moddable). Stunned enemies are opened to finishers.
  • He can still cast abilties while in puddleform, including regular Tidal Surge to travel much quicker.
    • Casting regular Tidal Surge does NOT cause him to exit the puddleform.
  • Leave the puddleform by holdcasting Tidal Surge again, or by jumping, or by meleeing. You could even exit by being near an enemy and press X to instantly do a melee finisher on them!

Plunder

• I do not like how this functions like Defy (i.e. you lose all the power on recast, based on new Corrosive procs around you). Imo, it should be refreshable ala Chroma's Vex Armor, and stackable on recasts (ala Frost's and Kullervo's Overguard mechanics). Instead, cap the bonuses, but make the gains and caps affected by ability strength, please?
• Not to mention, this ability would be entirely useless when fighting status immune enemies, like bosses. If it had a minimum effect bonus on cast, then that would alleviate that issue.
• The damage bonus being Corrosive is not very good, as has already been pointed out, considering he will be pretty good at armorstripping anyway and Corrosive damage is quite weak against unarmored enemies. I'd rather the offensive boost gave him something else entirely. Like, say, multishot for ranged weapons and combo chance and/or initial combo for melee weapons?
• The Rousing Plunder augment sounds pretty annoying to use for its healing, particularly unfitting as a onetime heal, due to how the bonus application currently works like Defy. If it didn't work like Defy (but rather was stackable and refreshable), it'd not be a problem though. But regardless, I'd suggest to also/instead give it a heal over time lasting for the entirety of Plunder's duration (maybe it could also provide parts of its armor bonus to allies?)

Tentacle Swarm

• Looks much better, especially so if the tentacles go and grab new enemies when a grabbed one dies! However, it still feels a little bit empty for an ultimate. If it gave a small offensive bonus to attacking grabbed enemies (like some extra status chance perhaps?) I think it would become just a smudge more useful.
• Meleeing grabbed enemies will still be a bit hard, due to the enemies being lifted up in the air. Could we maybe get a "Zephyr's Tornado" treatment for the tentacles, i.e. attacking the tentacles (at least with melee) hurts the grabbed enemy?

 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

43 minutes ago, HiFixx said:

The ability definitely is outdated. 1st rework, wasn’t so bad at the time since the number of frames were limited and umbra mods haven’t existed yet so people didn’t have much access to over the top DOOM level builds as they do now (unless you were playing as/with Volt or Saryn who are well known for nuking rooms) and corrosive was still a solid status effect to run, so his 1st ability augment was really good since it basically made armor seem more like toilet paper in a school bathroom that you dampen up and fling it with maximum force against a wall.

At that time, undertow was powerful. Now it’s simply outdated and rather clunky in the game’s current state. Plunder doesn’t seem like such a bad ability, since the game has shifted towards “Try not to speedrun challenge. Level: IMPOSSIBLE.”

The only thing I can really agree on is that they could’ve done the animation for plunder a bit more justice. While great that it provides plenty for Hydroid, animation wise it looks pretty boring. Not like undertow’s animation was any better, but it was an ability that screams “I’m different!” And honestly, can’t argue with that logic, it did stand out amongst all the other abilities in the game, with the exception of Limbo.

Also I appreciate the compliment. I don’t like to be heavily biased when it comes to topics such as this one, so I’m open to hearing out what people have to say. Both sides are in the right and in the wrong simultaneously. Yeah, undertow’s a pretty fun ability, but it does come with drawbacks, threat of it being an AFK machine was one of them. Yes, Plunder definitely works in-line with the current meta, but it’s basically a copy+paste of other warframe abilities that do the same thing.

And I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s too late for you to enjoy undertow. You got a good 2 weeks before it gets pulled from the game, so play to your hearts content.

 

(And yes, undertow existed before the parkour 2.0 update, back when Warframes had a stamina bar for some unknown reason)

Gotta respect someone who keeps a cooler head than me.

Grah. I guess I’m just venting over changes that seem like they’re trying to get uninterested players to play the game and branch out into more options when they’re probably just going to play around with Hydroid after the changes then once more leave him behind since they’ve already got their speedrunning and near-AFK builds and loadouts settled. I’m also not made of free time so I’m not going to get much more chance to play around with puddle and do some of the things I’ve seen suggested.

Ultimately the changes are what they are for reasons. I’m up for trying whatever, so I’ll give him a solid go after the changes and see what I can do; I doubt it’s going to be the end of having fun with Hydroid thanks to the general design of the game and its mod system even if the fundamental base has been adjusted, and it’s not like he was only puddle

[FiveN9ne]

On 2023-10-01 at 11:39 PM, Chity said:

Everyone that is sad to see the puddle go should remember warframe is a high mobility game with a lot of visual information, and turning into an immobile puddle is just going to remain very incompatible with it. 

You need a new argument. Where is the mobility in tentacle swarm? Let me just camp here in range of my swarm because it's completely stationary. But puddle, nah. Literally all they needed to do was tweak it, add a gimmick effect, make it faster and done. Instead they made Hydroid into a boring frame nobody will play anymore.

[CapinPotato9711]

thought i might add to this debate, 

On 2023-10-01 at 10:39 PM, Chity said:

Everyone that is sad to see the puddle go should remember warframe is a high mobility game with a lot of visual information, and turning into an immobile puddle is just going to remain very incompatible with it. 

18 hours ago, FiveN9ne said:

You need a new argument. Where is the mobility in tentacle swarm? Let me just camp here in range of my swarm because it's completely stationary. But puddle, nah. 

fiveN9n's point can also be aplied to most other warframes:

limbos 4, wisps buffs, atlases wall, vaubans... evrything.    oberons hallowed ground, zephyres tornados, trinitys health and energy restors, xakus armor and sheild strip, hildrins 4 (may as well be).   khoras strangledome and ensnare,   niduses parasitic link, larva, and ravonus.  citrene and gara both prity much stay in the same place.  garudas blood alters, saryn needs to stay in the same area to keep there infection up, or risk loosing it.   octavia benefits in the same way, otherwise its harder for teammates to benefit from buffs.  all of proteas abilitys require being in the same place, mostly her 3. sevagoths sow.  revanants thralls dont travel with them. titanias tribute and lantern. 

 

even if this wernt the case, folk dont just move around the place exept for exterminate and spy misions, with every other mission type involving staying in a set area. even in survival missions, most players ask to camp in a set area to increase spawns, allowing for every squad mate to have more fun.  any argument for "its too slow" or, "it has no place in a high mobility game like warframe" just dosent make sence. just because it dosent suit one missions type dosent render it invalid. you wouldent bring a gara on a spy mission, youd bring ivara. if it were defence, it would be the other way round.

no, hydroids undertow does not suit fast gameplay... alongside most other warframe in the game which also have one or multiple stationary traits. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by CapinPotato9711
Please excuse the poor grammer, i dident want this post to take up the whole webpage

[HiFixx]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Gotta respect someone who keeps a cooler head than me.

Grah. I guess I’m just venting over changes that seem like they’re trying to get uninterested players to play the game and branch out into more options when they’re probably just going to play around with Hydroid after the changes then once more leave him behind since they’ve already got their speedrunning and near-AFK builds and loadouts settled. I’m also not made of free time so I’m not going to get much more chance to play around with puddle and do some of the things I’ve seen suggested.

Ultimately the changes are what they are for reasons. I’m up for trying whatever, so I’ll give him a solid go after the changes and see what I can do; I doubt it’s going to be the end of having fun with Hydroid thanks to the general design of the game and its mod system even if the fundamental base has been adjusted, and it’s not like he was only puddle

Sucks that you don’t have the free time, sorry to hear about that.

If it’s any consolation, people were a bit uneasy about Ember getting a rework, but look at her now. She’s become a solid frame now. I’m sure people will come around with Hydroid as well. If its removal means that he becomes more approachable to the general player base and new players, so be it. It would be nice to see more Hydroids roaming the star chart.

And I’m glad you see him more than just a puddle. In my opinion, his core identity is still there. If you had taken his 3rd ability away in its entirety (not just puddle, but plunder as well), anyone would still be able to recognize him and what he does.

And credit where credit is due. You did make some good points that had me stop and think for moment. I get your frustration too. I got ember just days before her rework so I wasn’t able to fully enjoy what she did prior to her changes, but she’s not bad.

[iKLuTcHiTz]

Kind of bummed undertow is going away. How are we gonna get the damage buff for tentacle swarm when in undertow? or is tentacle swarms damage getting buffed?

I read a comment on youtube saying they should turn undertow into an augment. Pablo's reason for removing undertow was cause of enemy denial but allies were still able to damage enemies in the undertow. Not sure how thats enemy denial aside from them just not being able to see them and enemies took a lot of damage in the undertow so they wouldnt be in there a lot. Well unless you're in steel path and enemies are like at level cap.

Well I've learned it is what it is through warframe. Like every rework ever, just gonna pour one out.

 

Kind of bummed undertow is going away. How are we gonna get the damage buff for tentacle swarm when in undertow? or is tentacle swarms damage getting buffed?

I read a comment on youtube saying they should turn undertow into an augment. Pablo's reason for removing undertow was cause of enemy denial but allies were still able to damage enemies in the undertow. Not sure how thats enemy denial aside from them just not being able to see them and enemies took a lot of damage in the undertow so they wouldnt be in there a lot. Well unless you're in steel path and enemies are like at level cap.

Well I've learned it is what it is through warframe. Like every rework ever, just gonna pour one out.

 

Forgot to add too if tentacle swarms will catch enemies better? This is was the main issue that made Hydroid terrible, his tentacle swarm not getting enemies well. When casting tentacle swarm in undertow this wasnt an issue cause enemies were all caught by the tentacles.

[(PSN)OmegAmorbis]

Count me in as somebody who will actually miss Undertow. For all of its current issues, it's one of the more unique abilities in the game and I would much rather have had DE tried to improve it rather than replace it with something much, much less interesting. It's a good and practical change for the sake of playability, but damn if I won't miss that silly puddle. At least all the other changes look good.

[Rubdalf]

I wish plunder did something else too, to me it just feels like a way worse version of pillage with a probably decent damage buff sprinkled on top. Not to mention that the passive already gives full strip and corrosive procs last for 8 seconds. If you're not killing enemies in that time frame already, you're fighting enemies way over your level. It doesn't make any sense for the ability to just make corrosive procs permanent on enemies affected by it.

Although I would absolutely love it as a corrosive damage buff, the idea of it just feels really bad otherwise. Maybe add some shield interaction to it or something, idk. It's already not the helminth ability so why not make it strong.

[Ceadeus]

I think the changes are "good" if not just because Hydroid was SO bad, but I don't think they're gonna be enough and he'll likely wind up needing another "rework" later down the line if they expect him to actually see any amount of play beyond the honeymoon phase after this change and the diehards who have always played him regardless of viability. His kit is still a mix of 2 problems #1 being that his abilities are just worse versions of better abilities for the most part and #2 being he just got a lot of stuff centered around helping his CC aspects and we all know the old issue that "the best CC is dead" and to that end, he really didn't gain any actual damage output which is obviously still by far and away the king in Warframe. There's also the matter that his new "Plunder" ability is another armor-stripping ability that operates on a small, concentrated area, but they didn't give him any effective mass-grouping tools which they seem to have a habit of doing anymore, not to mention the fact that this ability seems like it's gonna be worthless vs Corpus/Infested units unless they misspoke. I would feel a lot better about it if they'd taken the tentacle swarm changes a little further and maybe had the tentacles drag all the enemies under for a second then pull them back up all grouped up on Hydroid's position so they'd be primed for his defense stripping, in addition to making it easier for him/his teammates to mass clear.

[NoHaloHere]

So many warframes are getting reworked almost completely (skills and/or augments) and it makes me wonder - wouldn't it be for the best to have those introduced as good/evil playable counterparts with a small story quest and simply have them both? For what it's worth - the original Hydroid is unique and deserved to be kept as is, at least for historic purposes.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 11 minutos, NoHaloHere dijo:

So many warframes are getting reworked almost completely (skills and/or augments) and it makes me wonder - wouldn't it be for the best to have those introduced as good/evil playable counterparts with a small story quest and simply have them both? For what it's worth - the original Hydroid is unique and deserved to be kept as is, at least for historic purposes.

Why would they keep something so unnecessary? They have not done it with old mosaics, nor with discarded mechanics, why would they be preserved with this?

[Tiltskillet]

18 minutes ago, NoHaloHere said:

So many warframes are getting reworked almost completely

[Tellmeninetails]

The problem my hydroid main friend says is that without his puddle he isn't really embodying the fear of drowning anymore. Also literally no one was annoyed with his puddle hiding enemies. Seccodnly you can shoot the puddle to defeat the enemies inside enemies. Overall the puddle was the most fun part of his kit, now his kit is more boring overall now that it's replaced with a simple armor strip.

[Psianide73]

If anything, the best suggestion I can think of is to have Puddle work like Limbos roll.

Rolling makes you dive down to become a puddle that renders you untouchable to all except Eximus units. No sprinting, only walking pace (moddable). No other abilities can be triggered (but existing abilities will persist) while down there. Shields and health will recharge while puddled.

It'll be a panic button of sorts.

Roll again to dive out of the water which triggers a radial pull.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Psianide73