Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: System Changes and General Quality of Life

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

12 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Firstly - we’re buffing Tenno Shields overall!

Previously: Tenno Shields offered a 25% resistance to all damage types.

Now: Tenno Shields will offer a 50% resistance to all damage types. 

We’re also buffing a few Shield-specific Mods with Recharge rate in mind! 
(values below are at max rank)

• Fast Deflection: added -45% Shield Recharge Delay
• Fortitude: increased the Shield Recharge value from +80% to +100%. 
  • Also increased Chance to Resist Knockdown from +20% to +40%. 
• Vigilante Vigor: added -30% Shield Recharge Delay

Hold on there could have been a way to just mod this

12 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Part 3 - We’re adding a new Corrupted Mod: Catalyzing Shields

With the changes to Shield Gating, we still want to offer players different ways to interact with this system without always having to Mod for the most Shields possible. To accomplish this, we are introducing a new Corrupted Mod: Catalyzing Shields.

You could of put it in some similar thing like this

12 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

1 - We are reducing the overall multiplier for Health, Shield, Energy, and Armor Mods.

Since these now affect Max Rank Warframe stats, these Mods need to scale differently to maintain the status quo. Additionally, we wanted these new values to be as clear and understandable to all players as possible! Here are a few examples of these value changes:

• Vitality: reduced from +440% to +100% Health
• Redirection: reduced from +440% to +100% Shield Capacity
• Steel Fiber: reduced from +110% to +100% Armor
• Flow: reduced from +150% to +100% Energy Max

Note: these are not all of the Mods affected by this change. We share the comprehensive list further down in this workshop. 

Doing some quick math, this means that a Rank 30 Excalibur (300 Health) with a reworked Vitality Mod (+100% Health, applied to the final Health stat) would receive 300 extra Health, for a total of 600. That, in contrast, is a nerf, which we also don’t want to do. 

So, our next step:

2 - We are adjusting Warframe Health, Shield, Energy, and Armor values to keep the end result of the revised Mods as close to the original values as possible. 

you just Reworked?, It all just like that?

Alright i see it, Now all frames/stuff get boosted stats without mods and the mods just push the specifics higher

The Shields should Range from 25% - 50% based on Shield amount or Shield regen (multipurpose but effective choice mods)

12 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

General Kahl-ity of Life Changes:

12 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Archon Hunt Damage Attenuation Changes

 

Atleast its feedback

Edited September 29, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89

[NecroPed]

23 minutes ago, garbenzine said:

I'm curious about the wording on the convergence orb change.  Do they mean you get 5000 flat focus on top of the multiplier, or were they saying that the orbs now simply give 5000 focus and remove the bonus mechanic?  If it's the latter, might want to spend the next couple weeks capping if you haven't already finished the focus grind.

I believe (and hope) it gives 5000 on pickup then gets the bonus gain, since it says "additionally", describes the points as a bonus, doesn't speak of removal or replacement, and is being done under the justification of reducing time investment of focus gain. I'm not a dev so don't take my word as absolute but this is my speculation.

[JargenBakt]

12 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Additionally, all Convergence Orbs will offer a flat 5,000 Focus bonus to your equipped Focus School upon pickup. 

This needs to be changed to divide the 5,000 between the equipped focus lenses else this will mess with the current focus farm methods that use Naramon exclusively for the bonus melee XP gain. And on that thought, Thrax and Void Angel enemies outside of Duviri should also be changed to function like this too. It should be set up to check for focus lenses first and if there aren't any use the equipped focus school.

[Ardhanarishvara]

48 minutes ago, AJAL8000 said:

 

One would assume that we'd just put this mod in where Adaptation or Rolling Guard would normally go and it'd be a null issue.

As for Limbo, I haven't actually had much issue with him, as usually I just jump in the opposite direction when Arson Eximus come by, or otherwise hit 5. And this is in the scenarios where I'm not running Silence. I find that nullifiers also are pretty handily handled by hitting 5 on average... but honestly that's getting slightly off topic in my need to reply to absolutely everything.

I should bring up the differences between this mod as it will be and the Decaying Dragon Key as it is at moment of writing - the Decaying Dragon Key is -75%, or 0.25x, meaning you have to be as low as 400 to get 100 shields, while this mod is 0.2x, or -80%, meaning you can be as high as 500 and get 100 shields, and any builds which would have used the Decaying Dragon Key before, assuming some mod or other is swapped out, will suddenly now have even lower shields than they had prior, meaning that, lost mod slot aside, it should be easier to hit breakpoint numbers with reasonable efficiency values on abilities without having to use multiple Augur mods on top of Brief Respite.

Going back to what you said, if I'm completely honest I've just straight up never paid attention to the actual window of my gate. I hear my shields go down, I roll away or hit 5 and sling away to lockdown or escape. I've never planned around specific durations, it's just "oh, audio cue, time to skedaddle." The extra duration to me is just more of a 'nice thing.'

Speaking of hitting 5, unrelated to our current discussion, but potentially synergistic, in recent years I admit I've kind of yearned for a 'universal' focus school of perks, like 'on Transference Out, cleanse status' or 'on Transference Out, restore 50 shields to Warframe' or 'able to use Transference from Staggered or Knockdown states' or 'hold 5 to Transference In back to Warframe's location.'

[Traumtulpe]

Well that's a surprise, the changes seem very sensible on paper - in particular the shield and damage attenuation ones (though I can't say that I like attenuation on principle).

These will need to be tested of course, especially since no values were given for the attenuation changes, and I'm sure the changes to shields will come with their own cans of worms and a new meta of their own, but at the very least the direction on all fronts is  a positive one.

Better late than never, I suppose! Now how about you un-break Gas and Blast status procs?

One question though, since it wasn't very clear - shield gating will now "remember" your highest achieved shield value since your last shield break, and scale the gating duration based on that, right? Because you made it sound like, say if I had 1000 max shields and took one hit for 999 damage, and then another hit of damage, I'd only get 0.33 seconds of gating, but that is surely not the case right?

Also, how do overshields interact with this, if at all? I'd argue they should be fully considered for the duration of the shield gate.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Amolistic.]

8 hours ago, BalaDeSilver said:

Rhino (the tank frame) still has less armor than Excalibur (the sword frame). Kinda of a pet peeve of a friend that's still not getting fixed :v

At least armor buffs should still matter a lot for people who don't use any armor mods, which is somewhat common nowadays.

But we hardcore rhino mains don't use any armor mods anyway. Even if it is 600 or something, you generally don't care much about it.

[HonorCandy]

These are overall pretty nice changes. 

Would like to see some more pure status build options to go along with hydroid's corrosive oriented playstyle.

like weapon mods that do a burst of damage each time you apply a status to an enemy that is at that status maximum. so you could build into being a dedicated corrosive spreader without "wasting" procs, and expand the fairly narrow status weapon build variety.

so for example a mod like Corrosive Overload, "after applying a corrosive proc to an enemy afflicted with 10 stacks of corrosive, causes an explosion dealing XX% corrosive damage in X radius"

or Acidic Advance, "Increases Damage by XX% per corrosive proc inflicted within XX seconds (up to a cap of XXX%)"

or something to enable more generic status builds

like Terminal Illness, "Enemies take XX% more damage for every status proc type at maximum stacks" or a different version of it being "Enemies take XX% more Damage over time for every status proc type at maximum stacks."

or No Vacancy, "When applying a status proc to an enemy, Deal an Additional Base Proc Damage hit for every Status at maximum procs"

[otakuotaku]

So for people who don't really care about using rivens but own the incarnon, can there also be an alt reward of an arcane for the circuit?

[Chewarette]

Garuda losing Energy based on the hypothetical use of Flow / Primed Flow is a $&*^ move. In fact it's the case for all the reduced stats, it assumes everyone is playing with Vitality/Redirection/Fiber/Flow, which is far from being the case.

[Gensoukyou1337]

11 hours ago, MobyTheDuck said:

Wait, did you guys address the Dragon Key + shield gate problem and then added a new mod that does nearly exactly that?

It still has the scaled shield gating duration, remember? 1.33s at full shields, 0.33s at no shields.

1 hour ago, HonorCandy said:

Terminal Illness, "Enemies take XX% more damage for every status proc type at maximum stacks"

I thought Condition Overload and the Galvanized Mods already do this without the maximum stacks.

[Voltage]

11 hours ago, Cerikus said:

I need to say something as loudly as possible:

THANK! YOU!

I've been posting so much about this. In my dream world I would adjust the reward path even more after after aquiring all Incarnons, but this is HUGE.

I love it.

3 hours of Circuit for 2 Rivens you could buy from trade chat for 20 Platinum isn't a spectacular change. If they let you pick a pack of Pathos Clamps or Arcanes, that would be a much larger improvement

[Guardian317]

As someone who uses Umbral set for my builds on warframes, I'm not sure how to feel about these changes.
On one hand, shields are better, as I never use Redirection so cool. :D

But on the other hand, I feel like Health from Umbral mods is going to be weaker and Armor to be stronger?
I mean it as, Health isn't even gonna come close to breaking even and Armor is going to be higher, just not enough to get the EHP to break even with what it is now.

So MAYBE, just MAYBE and I PRAY, I HOPE, I COPE that instead of 180% Health set bonus, we get 190% Health set bonus.

[winchpin]

17 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Swap Incarnon Evolutions in the Arsenal

Finally, I can die happy.

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 10 heures, TeenieSlasher a dit :

That is completely wrong. If you don't play an invis or invinc frame, suriving via shield gate is the highest possible skill ceiling, so just from a gameplay perspective alone, it's not free.

But it's also not free from a mod perspective. You need Brief Respite, forgoing any other possible aura mod. Depending on your efficiency and frame, you also need 2-3 Augur mods, 2 are possible on a secondary, another has to be slotted into your warframe at minimum, worst case you need 2 augur on the frame. So the price for shield gating is actually already pretty steep and now the builds are getting even tighter and more cookie cutter, because we have to give up another warframe mod slot, depriving those frames relying on shield gate alone by even more build choices. 

The other stuff you mentionned isn't free (since it take mod slots), but the key itself is, and is largely enough to provide benefits.

It's like saying health mods should be built in because they need armor to be effective, it makes absolutely no sense.
You will probably answer "yes but shield gating takes more mods to max out" which is true, but shield gating is most useful on squishy warframes that aren't built for survivability, so of course it takes more mods to survive, otherwise what's the point of tanky warframes ?

[Probably_Asleep]

6 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Thank you for sharing! I did a sense check with the working document and it looks like I had improperly transcribed the following values:

Grendel - Max Rank Health: 1295
Inaros - Max Rank Health: 2310
Inaros Prime - Max Rank Health: 2415
Kullervo - Max Rank Health: 1205 
Lavos - Max Rank Health: 740
Xaku - Max Rank Health: 359

As this is a dev workshop, values are still subject to change up until release, but I figured it was worth updating due to the valid discrepancies you pointed out. :) 

edit: the main post has also been updated with changed values in bold, for clarity!

Thanks for the update! I'm amazed that you manually transcribed all that data! A few inaccuracies are nothing compared to your syntactical precision. I was able to parse the data using regex! You've got literatim-level data-entry skills.

I'll update my earlier post with your new details (after some sleep). Thanks again!

 

6 hours ago, Sh0ckwaveFlash said:

Why didn't you use Primed or Archon Flow for comparison? There seem to be a handful of frames that lose energy with that mod. Also, the modded comparison is misleading because triple umbral results are worse than before, regarding naked ehp, I believe. 

Good points! I went with initially available mods because there's no Prime/Archon/Umbral version of Redirection, but you've got me curious now how things shake out with different values. I need to update my spreadsheet anyway with the updated data, so I'll run some different scenarios when I do.

[Danny99s]

So players who didn't use shield gating in the past are those clueless and didn't know or those who vehemently opposed it and called for SG removal calling it an elitist mechanic. 

DE imposed a buffed versions of that on them.

Players who used SG in the past and knew exactly how it worked, now they have to learn new timings and waste a mod slot to do exactly the same things as in the past.

Thumbs up, DE, that's how you make angry both casuals and long time experienced players.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Danny99s

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 4 heures, JargenBakt a dit :

This needs to be changed to divide the 5,000 between the equipped focus lenses else this will mess with the current focus farm methods that use Naramon exclusively for the bonus melee XP gain. And on that thought, Thrax and Void Angel enemies outside of Duviri should also be changed to function like this too. It should be set up to check for focus lenses first and if there aren't any use the equipped focus school.

It make sense to upgrade whatever school you're playing to encourage the player actually using it instead of passively upgrade it without even knowing what it does.

In my opinion the lens per school is a bit oudated and should move to a generic lens system where the focus aquired always goes to the equiped school, with either a buff to the corresponding school (when equiped) or buff to focus gain when performing certain actions (Stealth/finisher kills for Naramon, Healing doing and damaged block for Varazin, etc).

[D-Shear]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb lukinu_u:

The other stuff you mentionned isn't free (since it take mod slots), but the key itself is, and is largely enough to provide benefits.

It's like saying health mods should be built in because they need armor to be effective, it makes absolutely no sense.
You will probably answer "yes but shield gating takes more mods to max out" which is true, but shield gating is most useful on squishy warframes that aren't built for survivability, so of course it takes more mods to survive, otherwise what's the point of tanky warframes ?

 

I mean that is exactly the point. Why would you make a change that ONLY affects those extremely squishy frames and rob them of even more build diversity?

You can't make a Saryn or Mirage "tanky". Their literal only means to survive IS shield gating and that IS the reason why shield gating was introduced in the first place, so why would you cut down on all those frames without built-in survivability/invulnerability? Why do we still have Revenant in it's current form, who COMPLETELY bypasses EVERYTHING the game can throw at you? Why is Invisibility still equally as strong disabling ANY both ways interaction with enemies? 
This is what I don't understand: Why would you cut down on frames that were able to cling to the meta thanks to shield gating, while letting those obvious blatant overpowered candidates remain untouched? I will never accept changes like this as long as Revenant and Invisibility exists, they are just cancer for the game and diversity.

[ldegroodt115]

Woo! More shield damage resistance!
It's nice to try & preserve the old style of shield gating for those who use that mechanic.

Will there ever be an option to remove focus lenses for those of us who've finished focus schools?

Base vs Final Stats in Modding: This is super helpful- the way it used to work is unintuitive and I always found myself going to the wiki. Will Archon Shards that affect survivability stats be touched? Assume not

Steel Path Circuit Reward Path - New Riven Option: I would prefer choosing an arcane/pool, the grind is brutal for the new ones.. 50,000 credit cache looking at you.

Edited September 29, 2023 by ldegroodt115

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

Why Riven and not Arcanes in the circuit?

Riven don't feel very compelling for very old players

I think I have 200+ rivens to be unveiled and can't even bother

[(XBOX)CanadienSaintNk]

octavia:

Energy: Base Rank - 215 (from 175) / Max Rank - 265 (from 263)

• Flow: +100% Energy Max (was +150%)
• Primed Flow: +180% Energy Max (was +275%)

=530 energy with Flow

=732 energy with the sweet sweet Primed flow

that's the only frame i have built tbh so it was hard for me to judge until I mathed

Checks out, but it seems superfluous and I enjoy big numbers which are no longer there consequently making it harder for new players to determine their use

ps: why doesn't this mean we get a discount on upgrading primed flow?????

Spoiler

gib me back my 20 endo please

 

[lukinu_u]

il y a 4 minutes, TeenieSlasher a dit :

 

I mean that is exactly the point. Why would you make a change that ONLY affects those extremely squishy frames and rob them of even more build diversity?

You can't make a Saryn or Mirage "tanky". Their literal only means to survive IS shield gating and that IS the reason why shield gating was introduced in the first place, so why would you cut down on all those frames without built-in survivability/invulnerability? Why do we still have Revenant in it's current form, who COMPLETELY bypasses EVERYTHING the game can throw at you? Why is Invisibility still equally as strong disabling ANY both ways interaction with enemies? 
This is what I don't understand: Why would you cut down on frames that were able to cling to the meta thanks to shield gating, while letting those obvious blatant overpowered candidates remain untouched? I will never accept changes like this as long as Revenant and Invisibility exists, they are just cancer for the game and diversity.

You don't rob them from build diversity, you remove  something they weren't supposed to have in the first place, which is totally fair.
All warframe have their pros and cons, and some of them have survivability as pros, so why squishy frames would have equal survivability in the same amount of mods ?

Plus the 2 warframes you mentionned are good in survivability. Saryn is tanky enough to rely on life steal and/or normal shield gating while Mirage is squishy but can rely a lot control to survive. Shield gating is just the easy way of surviving for any warframe that don't have astronomical EHP or tank abilities, so it's completely normal to increase the requirements.

[(PSN)KimiHR]

So the biggest loser in changing the shield gating mechanics is Grendel and the upcoming prime version. The previous shield gating god is now in the banana

[(NSW)Betheudo]

14 hours ago, Cleblatt64 said:

I noticed an issue with the stat-changes on Lavos. He will get a huge nerf with the reduced Base Health.

With just Vitality equiped:
Now: 1.480 Health
After: 1.080 Health

The problem gets really worse when you use a complete Umbral Set:

Now: 2.140 Health + 1.541 Armor => 13.132 Effective Health
After: 1.512 Health + 1.890 Armor => 11.096 Effective Health
This is a loss of more than 15% of effective Health.

Please reconsider the changes to his Health.

Sincerelly,

a scarred alchemist.

Don't know if they updated the health already but your math is not 100% right.

LAVOS
Health: Base Rank - 340 (from 200) / Max Rank - 740 (from 600)
Shields: Base Rank - 170 (from 100) / Max Rank - 370 (from 300)
Armor: Base Rank - 575 (from 450) / Max Rank - 675 (from 675)
Energy: Base Rank - 0 (from 0) / Max Rank - 0 (from 0)

Now: health = 2.140 [600+(200*7,7)] and armor = 1541 [675+(450*1,925)]  => 13.132 Effective Health like you said.

After: health = 2072 [740+(740*1,8)] and armor = 1890 [675+(675*1,8)] => 15.126 Effective Health 

This is a increase of 15% of effective health

[Cleblatt64]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Betheudo:

Don't know if they updated the health already but your math is not 100% right.

LAVOS
Health: Base Rank - 340 (from 200) / Max Rank - 740 (from 600)
Shields: Base Rank - 170 (from 100) / Max Rank - 370 (from 300)
Armor: Base Rank - 575 (from 450) / Max Rank - 675 (from 675)
Energy: Base Rank - 0 (from 0) / Max Rank - 0 (from 0)

Now: health = 2.140 [600+(200*7,7)] and armor = 1541 [675+(450*1,925)]  => 13.132 Effective Health like you said.

After: health = 2072 [740+(740*1,8)] and armor = 1890 [675+(675*1,8)] => 15.126 Effective Health 

This is a increase of 15% of effective health

They have updated the some of the values already. I have put a note on my post.