Congratulations, DE. Hydroid is no longer worst frame in 2023 Warframe design

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , Tiltskillet 说:

I wouldn't use Jarriaga's same wording, but it does highlight something I find really frustrating about her:  her slide attack in Hysteria is so much more effective than her standard combos it actively discourages people who know that from using them.  It's way better for both single target and crowd dps.  I think something like 3x better for me without a macro. Which means something in the range of 10x better with one.

I'm sure there are players who are perfectly happy with it, but it's crappy design. 

I agree her combo stance really need some tweaking.

But playing the devil's advocate here. Hysteria makes her invulnerable. The only problems are 1. nully (a joke) and 2. energy economy (easy). If we buff Hysteria stance to the same level as any common melee like 2x 200% dmg with 100% slash, won't that be a bit OP? 

That's why I am a bit neutral. While I will be happy to see some buff, I also understand having such limitation/downside/whatever you call it.

[Hexerin]

1 minute ago, RichardKam said:

I agree her combo stance really need some tweaking.

But playing the devil's advocate here. Hysteria makes her invulnerable. The only problems are 1. nully (a joke) and 2. energy economy (easy). If we buff Hysteria stance to the same level as any common melee like 2x 200% dmg with 100% slash, won't that be a bit OP? 

That's why I am a bit neutral. While I will be happy to see some buff, I also understand having such limitation/downside/whatever you call it.

This exists. Therefore no, she does not need the pitiful to borderline unusable damage scaling on her standing and neutral combos as a "balance" compromise. Also, her slide attack exists, so that compromise would be hypocritical anyways.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

9 hours ago, XHADgaming said:

. . . But she did get touched. And having perma invuln is really helpful at times.

 

She got minor changes but nothing that massively swayed the needle. Her defense strip is ok but its limited more then other comparable abilities, and while she can be invincible, so can many others, and they dont lose movement or a mod slot so that they can move.

 

Tbh I just feel like she doesnt encapsulate the theme well enough. her 1st is a meh ability that requires more investment then it gives, her 3 is a very solid ability that sometimes runs into issues with enemies not targeting each other, and there could be an argument made that loki's radial disarm does what she does equally or better.

 

Id love if she could actually mind control an enemy and play AS the enemy. The tech is theoretically there, with Kahl/Veso gameplay as evidence.

8 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Bruh if her 4 had capped energy she would be top tier.

Yes she doesn't excel in damage but that's because she's themed around mind bending, and even then she has some armor stripping potential..

She's still decent (and honestly would only need touch-ups to her 2 and 4 at worst). The reason why she looks bad is because every frame to come out has had cc, damage, weapon buffs, and more in a single kit with no augments.

Her 4 doesnt make sense with the rest of her kit. If she is a mind control frame, why can she generate forcefields. If she is a psionic frame, then why do we only see some psionics in her last ability? I don't need her to excel in damage, but I feel like she has a lot of potential with her theme that goes untouched. I feel like she would benefit more then any other frame if she received a rework because the game is such a different game then when she was released.

Edited October 26, 2023 by (PSN)CommanderC2121

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

5 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Fair, but I think the 2 would be a better fit for a grouping ability.  It's criminally slow, and is likely his worst ability over all.

I would honestly just make Devour something like a mobile Blood Altar. Maybe use it on an enemy and they just float by you, slowly giving you health as they take % damage. Allies can then pick up a Devour target by just walking by it for instance. Honestly might make more sense for it to give you Overguard if you're at full health, and Sandstorm maybe just gets something else like increased damage vulnerability to affected enemies. Enemies killed through Devour or Sandstorm become a Sand Shadow.

If you have a Sand Shadow target active while you're supposed to die, the Shadow is consumed to keep Inaros alive instead, each revive having a short cooldown. Inaros' Sand Shadows now teleport to him like other allied units, and he can pull them or enemies closer to himself with Sandstorm to give them a heal or buff of some kind. I would honestly remove the weird "have an ally kill a linked enemy" for a faster revive and just allow him to cast only Sandstorm while Sarcophagus is active. If he gathers enough enemies around himself he can revive with less Health based on how long it took, yada yada yada.

If Scarab Swarm is active, your Shadows now get Corrosive attacks. Each active Sand Shadow multiplies their damage by x2.

I guess I just want Sand Shadows to not suck haha.

Edited October 26, 2023 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[Skoomaseller]

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

6. Chroma

7. Vauban

8. Atlas

9. Oberon

10. Limbo

11. Trinity

chroma - agree

vauban - nah

atlas - agree (higher priority imo)

oberon - no, but a few tweaks and buffs more than welcome

limbo - maybe, I don't play limbo

trinity - yes, but no need to change much

[0Midas0]

5 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I've done my share of 3 hour SP survival runs with her. Considering how weak current enemies are after the heavy nerf they took to EHP and accuracy back in February 2020 the ability to hit level 2K enemies doesn't make the frame any less mediocre or poorly-designed.

 

Which is still more than some other frames are doing. Could she use a tune-up? Sure. But worst warframe? Not so long as she's able to casually survive and kill SP enemies entirely on her own built-in kit up to basically any level. Some warframes have basically no redeeming qualities. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by 0Midas0

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

In what way? In the sense her normal combos could also be good? Sure. In the sense her slide attacks aren't novel and powerful in 2023 WF? Not a shot. I assume you mean something like the former and not that you're simply just straight up hating on the slide attack for no reason? Especially since almost no other melee wants to slide attack in 2023, so it essentially gives her a unique playstyle.

I don't think I understand the distinction you're making completely,  but I think her standard combos should be much better than they are.   All four should do much more damage than they do now and offer something distinctive compared to the slide attack. For instance the neutral and block combos could be the best choices for ST/narrow cone damage, the former better for direct damage, the latter better for bleeds.  Block combo could also use a knockdown, to leverage her awesome ground attacks.  The forward combo  probably just needs freer movement besides better damage.  Forward block already has a couple handy knockdowns--sprinkle in a few forced impact and bleeds.  She's got a couple of standing finisher openers--if the stun for these could be made a slightly longer, than would be nice.  Slide Attacks can still be the premier brute force  wide area horde killer.  In fact, maybe it can go a little wider.

None of these have to be perfectly balanced against each other  Just more like normal stances, where for the most part somebody like me who wants to use more than one combo can squint their eyes and see some reason for going to the trouble.   But better than normal stances in that at least slide attacks are useful.

 

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

But playing the devil's advocate here. Hysteria makes her invulnerable. The only problems are 1. nully (a joke) and 2. energy economy (easy). If we buff Hysteria stance to the same level as any common melee like 2x 200% dmg with 100% slash, won't that be a bit OP? 

There's a tough balancing act for sure.  That's part of the reason I don't like the invuln, and I don't like how easy that invuln has gotten to maintain.  Anyway, I'm glad I don't have to do the actual work balancing the Hysteria stance, but I think a better job can be done without breaking anything important.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Warcry synergizes with Hysteria for the attack speed buff.....

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

5 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

 

limbo - maybe, I don't play limbo

 

Limbo is fine. It's just that he's always wanted a closed off, solo playstyle (except in defense objectives) due to how complex his rift is. 

The eximus buffs were annoying for his rift, but you technically can still freeze up to 300 of the enemies' bullets at a time, and legitimately you could use breach surge (which stacks with rift surge to do a lot of damage) to stun all enemies in or out of rift so he can jump between the planes safely.

Edited October 26, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[Jarriaga]

11 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Warcry synergizes with Hysteria for the attack speed buff.....

That speed buff applies to all melee, not just Hysteria.

For Warcry to have synergy with Hysteria it would need to give you a bonus ability/perk/effect that is --only-- granted when both are active or used together. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Jarriaga

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It does not. Both of those effects being active at the same time is not synergy.

For Warcry to have synergy with Hysteria it would need to give you a bonus ability/perk/effect that is --only-- granted when both are active or used together. 

As you continue to simply be objectively wrong:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/synergy

[Aruquae]

15 hours ago, quxier said:

Just being able to armor strip won't make frame good, in my opinion.

No I was referring to his great shield tanking abilities. High strength and duration with 100 efficiency is fine for him. The free agro is also good in Defense. They’ll take all the damage while scaling with level too. I also wasn’t referring to his armor strip, but I will add that. “Woah he can armor strip without helminth!” His second ability gives a very nice damage boost, I just wish they would stop floating away. 

 

15 hours ago, quxier said:

Like making it "adapt" to all damage types and to 90% like Adaptation?

Yes, the reason I said “tweak” was because if I said “rework” they might remove it entirely. The passive is good IN CONCEPT, but it is TERRIBLY executed. Your solution is the same solution I proposed because stacking DR is obviously proven fine with Baruuk. It would also be completely on par with his theme. 

 

15 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe if you play some specific way you get shields but my sentients just spawn/go/teleport out of my range. I rarely get shields.

Curse ye buggy code. They are supposed to teleport WITHIN SHIELD RANGE. Granted there is a cooldown (one second I think?), but the play style with the shields still works well. I recommend brief respite for the aura because they don’t regenerate shields if you don’t have shields. 

[Jarriaga]

18 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

As you continue to simply be objectively wrong:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/synergy

I thought you couldn't hear me over how I don't know how to play her? 

[Joezone619]

As much as i love valkyr, as a valkyr main i have to agree. He raises some solid points, the 1st has no incentive to use and was designed for a time when bullet jumping didn't exist. The 2 and the 4 are anti synergy, and the 3rd needs an augment to be of any use at all.

That said, if they were to rework her, by far the biggest thing i want to change is the 4th's melee combos. They're soo bad, everyone just ends up spamming slide attacks.

[RichardKam]

2小时前 , (XBOX)Upl0rdYT 说:

Limbo is fine. It's just that he's always wanted a closed off, solo playstyle (except in defense objectives) due to how complex his rift is. 

The eximus buffs were annoying for his rift, but you technically can still freeze up to 300 of the enemies' bullets at a time, and legitimately you could use breach surge (which stacks with rift surge to do a lot of damage) to stun all enemies in or out of rift so he can jump between the planes safely.

Limbo biggest problem is that the game was not designed around rift. It was not a core mechanic, and Limbo is the only one that work with it. When you have Limbo in a squad, it more or less forced everyone to interact with something they cannot fully control.

Yeah ability can damage stuff across planes. Then what should Chroma do? Spectral scream in SP? No.

Technical it was not Limbo's fault. He is fine. If only every frame and mod and ability was designed with the rift in mind, things would be very different. 

I don't think DE will work on him in any foreseeable future because, I dare say, the rift concept being introduced mid-development was a mistake. Limbo will probably just stay in limbo.

[PR1D3]

Hot take. All her current abilities can work better with tweaks. She could benefit with certain gear pieces (and through some Duviri Decrees) by having ease of access to finishers. Ripline being expanded to being able to reasonably be “GET OVER HERE!”. Having enemies ragdolled and yeeted is not conducive for anything. With a handful of other changes. Her 2 and 3 honestly should be combined into the same ability and you can recast fully. Paralysis should be upper body but not a full animation. Warcry can stay full animation. Create new 3rd ability. And I don’t care what anyone says, update her stance at bare minimum. A huge chunk of melee’s power comes from the stances. It’s super old and should flow better.

 

Also Banshee needs a rework. For god sakes all her abilities have hard animations. Sonic Boom is still not a one handed cast.

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

Limbo biggest problem is that the game was not designed around rift. It was not a core mechanic, and Limbo is the only one that work with it. When you have Limbo in a squad, it more or less forced everyone to interact with something they cannot fully control.

Yeah ability can damage stuff across planes. Then what should Chroma do? Spectral scream in SP? No.

Technical it was not Limbo's fault. He is fine. If only every frame and mod and ability was designed with the rift in mind, things would be very different. 

I don't think DE will work on him in any foreseeable future because, I dare say, the rift concept being introduced mid-development was a mistake. Limbo will probably just stay in limbo.

Ok this is really going to be a hot take. I think limbo is one of the best designed frames in the game. He’s mechanically complex compared to most frames. He’s a hard caster and support. His cc doesn’t jive well with most team play unless you’re really conservative & intentional with your casts, and creating cats pockets for people to attack stuff. But again thats the mechanics stuff. When most players have main character syndrome & want to kill everything, the heavy cc frame with no native killing ability, and you can’t autopilot him it’s no wonder most do like him. Not to mention in the current state of the game it makes it more tricky to use him.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by PR1D3

[Alguien]

1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

Also Banshee needs a rework

"But she has sonar which allows you to do lots of damage so we can ignore the rest of her kit being bad, much like we can ignore how Valkyr's kit is bad because of her slide attack"

[quxier]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Malikili said:

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Just being able to armor strip won't make frame good, in my opinion.

No I was referring to his great shield tanking abilities. High strength and duration with 100 efficiency is fine for him.

Shield restoration is horrible for me. ymmv

4 hours ago, (NSW)Malikili said:

His second ability gives a very nice damage boost, I just wish they would stop floating away. 

Armor strip (4th) does it already but much better.

 

4 hours ago, (NSW)Malikili said:

The free agro is also good in Defense

I don't know about this because shield restoration is bad so I don't use it

4 hours ago, (NSW)Malikili said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe if you play some specific way you get shields but my sentients just spawn/go/teleport out of my range. I rarely get shields.

Curse ye buggy code. They are supposed to teleport WITHIN SHIELD RANGE. Granted there is a cooldown (one second I think?), but the play style with the shields still works well.

Duh, they don't even spawn near me or regenerate shield on cast, afair.

4 hours ago, (NSW)Malikili said:

I recommend brief respite for the aura because they don’t regenerate shields if you don’t have shields. 

thanks

3 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

Ok this is really going to be a hot take. I think limbo is one of the best designed frames in the game. He’s mechanically complex compared to most frames. He’s a hard caster and support. His cc doesn’t jive well with most team play unless you’re really conservative & intentional with your casts, and creating cats pockets for people to attack stuff. But again thats the mechanics stuff. When most players have main character syndrome & want to kill everything, the heavy cc frame with no native killing ability, and you can’t autopilot him it’s no wonder most do like him. Not to mention in the current state of the game it makes it more tricky to use him.

It's not that frames needs "native killing ability". However Limbo's forte (CC with rift) is worse than probably most "CC by death" abilities. So why use it when he isn't even stronger in his forte?

He was "fine" before Eximus rework. Nowadays it's more work than gain (it depends on content).

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

5 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Limbo biggest problem is that the game was not designed around rift. It was not a core mechanic, and Limbo is the only one that work with it. When you have Limbo in a squad, it more or less forced everyone to interact with something they cannot fully control.

Yeah ability can damage stuff across planes. Then what should Chroma do? Spectral scream in SP? No.

Technical it was not Limbo's fault. He is fine. If only every frame and mod and ability was designed with the rift in mind, things would be very different. 

I don't think DE will work on him in any foreseeable future because, I dare say, the rift concept being introduced mid-development was a mistake. Limbo will probably just stay in limbo.

The problem is that they could make it so limbo (and allies) could damage things through rift, but then limbo would be one of the most op frames ever created due to being nigh-unkillable with an insanely high scaling damage buff and cc. (Not to mention that it would cause the problem of people trying to kill enemies before you put them in stasis + rift surge (+ breach surge)).

Even if they changed it so it was only like 50% damage goes through rift, people would still complain (despite casually doing 100m dmg) and/or limbo would compete with his allies still. (Honestly this would be the most balanced approach imo, but still).

Edited October 26, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

45 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

The problem is that they could make it so limbo (and allies) could damage things through rift, but then limbo would be one of the most op frames ever created due to being nigh-unkillable with an insanely high scaling damage buff and cc. (Not to mention that it would cause the problem of people trying to kill enemies before you put them in stasis + rift surge (+ breach surge)).

Even if they changed it so it was only like 50% damage goes through rift, people would still complain (despite casually doing 100m dmg) and/or limbo would compete with his allies still. (Honestly this would be the most balanced approach imo, but still).

That's why Sunder and many others are just suggesting an entire overhaul. I just don't think there is much you CAN do with his kit in its current state.

You can still keep the same idea, as in multiple dimension hopping, but the way everything is now is probably not going to work in a pure "buff up the numbers sense". If you make him better against Eximus he just gets put right where he was before the changes. He'd still have to build counter-intuitively for Corpus, he'd make Grineer completely ignorable and he'd still struggle in anti-ability modes like Arbitration.

Personally? I think Limbo needs to have the Rift act more as an always on sort of thing, instead making it so getting pulled out of the Rift is a punishment and not something Banish encourages. Casting abilities would make you momentarily vulnerable, as an example, or you stay in the Rift and can damage enemies freely while you're immune to damage until you meet a threshold and are forcefully pulled out, with more casts increasing your "Rift Shield". The shield affects all allies in your ability radius, making them immune to all physical attacks until it runs out, excluding things like Eximus attacks. 

He obviously needs more than that, but at least making the Rift less of a permanent invulnerability with limitations and no upkeep into more of a temporary invulnerability with less limitation and more upkeep is where I'd start.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[KitMeHarder]

18 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't think I understand the distinction you're making completely

Yes, that both should be good.

I didn't know if you thought that slide attacks were a "crappy design" in general and should be decentivized/removed.

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yes, that both should be good.

I didn't know if you thought that slide attacks were a "crappy design" in general and should be decentivized/removed.

No, just that they're boring when done to the exclusion of all else, which Hysteria's design encourages.  I'd feel the same if it were a standard combo that was disproportionately powerful instead.

Off topic, but I'd like slide attacks to be better outside of Hysteria.  Oh well, maybe by the next big QoL update in a few years, they'll have recovered from their acute allergic reaction to Meme Strike.

[sunderthefirmament]

10 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

Ok this is really going to be a hot take. I think limbo is one of the best designed frames in the game. He’s mechanically complex compared to most frames. He’s a hard caster and support. His cc doesn’t jive well with most team play unless you’re really conservative & intentional with your casts, and creating cats pockets for people to attack stuff. But again thats the mechanics stuff. When most players have main character syndrome & want to kill everything, the heavy cc frame with no native killing ability, and you can’t autopilot him it’s no wonder most do like him. Not to mention in the current state of the game it makes it more tricky to use him.

His mechanical complexity might make it seem like he has a high skill ceiling, but really, there's nothing up there.  It's jumping through hoops to accomplish what other frames do far more effectively.   I've said it before and I'm sure I'll trot it out again, but Revenant with Mesmer Shield and Zenurik does everything Limbo can do, only far better and with less griefing.

 

I get the appeal for a more subtle and complex character, like a Medivh in Heroes of the Storm (some damage, but focuses on shielding allies and creating portals for them to move through), or a Mesmer from Guild Wars 1 (disruption and punishment, but very little direct damage).  Limbo is a sad interpretation of that fantasy/playstyle.

 

Limbo isn't well designed.  He never was.  And he's getting worse with age.  His niche, feast or famine CC, was never healthy for the game, and it has been eroded to the point where it doesn't even exist anymore.  There's only one mission type where he still excels: the Nightwave Index challenge.  That's not of a niche to make him relevant.  And a frame as actively harmful to others' experiences should be the top priority for a rework.

[L3512]

14 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

There's only one mission type where he still excels: the Nightwave Index challenge.  That's not of a niche to make him relevant.

Yes because Khora can do that better.

[ReddyDisco]

Ain't no way valkyr is worse than inaros

that being said valkyr could do with some changes to bring her upto 2023 standard.