But WHY does DE release band-aid mods?

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

I switched Careers so I'm not a coder anymore, but I'd imagine that if you have the capacity to implement the change as augment mod then it's a lot easier if you just added that change into the base ability.

DE are infamously known to release these mods instead of fixing the base abilities...it's obvious the ability needs it, and it's obvious that these aren't really "augmenting" the ability more so than fixing something it lacks.

so why don't they? Energy transfer is one of the strongest examples...it screams "this is bandaid"
and they aren't shy about it either...there have been countless instances where they DID change the augment and added the effect to the base ability...like corroding barrage 

[SDGDen]

energy transfer will probably become a built-in feature when equinox finally reaches the bottom of the list and gets her rework. inaros is probably first though. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Because, if we run with the analogy, not all wounds are festering or visible. Where some see a bandaid, others see a minor scratch that they are apathetic to. It doesn't necessarily invalidate the issue, wound, cause, etc for those that do care... but thats sort of the issue as well, because a body may have a lot of little scratches, some with band aids, and some without, and some with due attention and medical care, but... again, its really only the more serious, and large wounds that get immediate treatment and with the more minor stuff, well then its a shouting match with the bodies various cells, immune system shouting and clashing with what needs next priority. 

I'm partially at fault, which I do feel bad about, as I am kind of apathetic. There are many augments or abilities I wish were fine tuned, but eh, its not really a big deal to me. Its genuinely not a pressing issue, and there are other issues I view as more significant, and if enough or most people are like me, or even more apathetic... 

[trst]

They're not band-aids just because you think they're mandatory.

Equinox was designed with the intent of having two sets of separate abilities that don't directly interact with each other. Energy Transfer is an augment that goes against her design for a single ability. Plus she's entirely functional and viable without using the augment.

As well the whole idea of augments was to enhance specific abilities on a frame. Instead of randomly powercreeping the baseline of all frames they're there to give us the option of improving an ability in exchange of a mod slot. The only failing of this system is how some augments aren't strong enough to justify the loss of a standard mod.

 

So as for your question the answer is that they don't, they just release mods and augments.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

17 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

inaros is probably first though. 

Inaros is nowhere close to getting a full rework cause he doesn't need it.

[Tiltskillet]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

there have been countless instances where they DID change the augment and added the effect to the base ability...like corroding barrage 

"Countless". :P

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Why are there so many former game devs and coders that still don't know the basics of the game they're playing lol? 

Adding augments to abilities is just another mod slot. 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

34 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

"Countless". :P

take me seriously for once lol

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PSN)Hopper_Orouk:

I switched Careers so I'm not a coder anymore, but I'd imagine that if you have the capacity to implement the change as augment mod then it's a lot easier if you just added that change into the base ability.

DE are infamously known to release these mods instead of fixing the base abilities...it's obvious the ability needs it, and it's obvious that these aren't really "augmenting" the ability more so than fixing something it lacks.

so why don't they? Energy transfer is one of the strongest examples...it screams "this is bandaid"
and they aren't shy about it either...there have been countless instances where they DID change the augment and added the effect to the base ability...like corroding barrage 

I would also be interested. but only devs can answer that. Who knows what's going on in their heads. They just don't look in here. even forum is managed by an external company.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I switched Careers so I'm not a coder anymore, but I'd imagine that if you have the capacity to implement the change as augment mod then it's a lot easier if you just added that change into the base ability.

DE are infamously known to release these mods instead of fixing the base abilities...it's obvious the ability needs it, and it's obvious that these aren't really "augmenting" the ability more so than fixing something it lacks.

so why don't they? Energy transfer is one of the strongest examples...it screams "this is bandaid"

Not sure if it's stance of whole team but Pablo mentioned in some talk with youtube that they (he?) like that augments take slot so you have to choice X or Y kind of thing. So, in most cases, instead of buffing frame they introduce augment (and maybe buff augment).

2 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

and they aren't shy about it either...there have been countless instances where they DID change the augment and added the effect to the base ability...like corroding barrage 

In case of reworks they may change how frame works (e.g. Grendel/Pulverize don't need Catapult augment to be "good enough") but that's not "countless instances".

With the "augment rework" they haven't changed frames but augments. I don't think there were single instance where they changed frame. That tells you a lot.

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Because while DE is great at making fun content, they're actually terrible at being devs.

I partially disagree. If you cannot make good system then you cannot make "fun content" because mechanically it will be clunky, hence not so fun. Like Caliban's 1st (Razor gyre). It's weak ability. You cannot activate any ability except not great 2nd. It drains A LOT. But the ability have potential to be fun (to play not to be one of "the strongest" abilities).

1 hour ago, trst said:

They're not band-aids just because you think they're mandatory.

Equinox was designed with the intent of having two sets of separate abilities that don't directly interact with each other. Energy Transfer is an augment that goes against her design for a single ability.

So why they are band-aids?

IMHO, it doesn't go against her design. What you do when changing forms? Well you build some "charges". What this mod does? It makes it faster. It doesn't change your playstyles too much. It just makes it more streamlined experience.

1 hour ago, trst said:

Plus she's entirely functional and viable without using the augment.

Part of the kit is "functional and viable" at some time? Well, that not great. It's like saying "Xaku doesn't need augment/change for 3rd because they can kill everything with 2+4 (+ some armor strip)".

_______________

Don't log me out.

[taiiat]

new stuff to grind adds Content. if adding Content technically addresses a problem, then it does two things at once.
it's good for business. it's not ideal for the game.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

new stuff to grind adds Content. if adding Content technically addresses a problem, then it does two things at once.
it's good for business. it's not ideal for the game.

this sums it up perfectly. you can kill two birds with one stone if players have to grind a little or buy plat and trade for a mod that fixes their problem. 

fact is, DE's dev team will almost always look for the easiest possible route for them first, and only put work in if the community kick up a major fuss and give them basically no other choice but to solve the problem properly or face a PR backlash.

as for Equinox, I think by nature she was doomed to end up falling off due to her having a more complex kit, and if it's hard to make a frame with 4 viable powers, one with 7 (Metamorphosis is basically just a mode switch without it's augment) is gonna be near impossible. the more complex the frame was to make, the less likely the devs will want to touch it again, because it means more work for them. I don't see Equinox getting reworked for a good few years at the very least.

 

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

fact is, DE's dev team will almost always look for the easiest possible route for them first, and only put work in if the community kick up a major fuss and give them basically no other choice but to solve the problem properly or face a PR backlash.

note: i'm not trying to suggest that, but rather that the governing entity is significantly financially incentivized to pick a solution that is good for business and still provides some mitigation or resolution for any particular issue.

that's how basically everything in existence goes. if you want a specific outcome to be picked over another, you should generally expect to need to find a way to make the outcome you want more financially appealing than any other potential option.

[SneakyErvin]

We have few actual bandaids and I wouldnt class Energy Transfer as one, since the frame is designed around playing without it and Enox is not a weak frame by any means when "locked" to a single form. Energy Transfer is in reality quite a powerful mod since you suddenly have more than 4 skills at your disposal. Plus, playing both forms effectively doesnt really come down to Energy Transfer, since the two forms benefit from different modding, and can make use of different dump stats to improve them further. Hence why so many people have asked for seperate Night and Day modding in the first place.

But then again I've seen people say the Mesmer Skin augment is a bandaid and mandatory aswell. And I'm looking and looking and looking at my Rev and go "say wut now?", since it does jack squat for Rev and I really dont want to force Meser Skin on other players, since it may actually #*!% up their modding and arcane choices severely. And it doesnt apply to most companions either, so not even really useful there.

Then we have Wisp's mote augment that in essence is a 200% cast speed buff for that skill.

Augments I find as bandaids are things like Piercing Roar, if it wasnt for the fact it also knocks down and applies max stacks of puncture to enemies. The bandaid part of the mod is that it allows you to recast Roar, which is a very nice addition for most skills, since it allows you to spend energy to rebuff at moments where it is less costly to you, or to make benefit of a conditional buff etc. Though even if the recast became baseline for Roar I'd very likely still use the augment in every build that uses Roar, since the other effects are very welcome, especially since the buffs to puncture that now makes it a mini-Avenger debuff.

I'm sitting here thinking of some actual bandaid augments and I have a hard time to recall any. The closest I get is Ash, Shuriken and Teleport, since they are so lackluster on their own, or in the case of Teleport nearly unusable without the augment in most content, since everything is alerted 24/7 so teleporting in order to finish does nothing, since you cant engage in a finisher anyways. Shuriken does abyssmal damage and nothing else without the augment.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 2 horas, SneakyErvin dijo:

We have few actual bandaids and I wouldnt class Energy Transfer as one, since the frame is designed around playing without it and Enox is not a weak frame by any means when "locked" to a single form. Energy Transfer is in reality quite a powerful mod since you suddenly have more than 4 skills at your disposal. Plus, playing both forms effectively doesnt really come down to Energy Transfer, since the two forms benefit from different modding, and can make use of different dump stats to improve them further. Hence why so many people have asked for seperate Night and Day modding in the first place.

But then again I've seen people say the Mesmer Skin augment is a bandaid and mandatory aswell. And I'm looking and looking and looking at my Rev and go "say wut now?", since it does jack squat for Rev and I really dont want to force Meser Skin on other players, since it may actually #*!% up their modding and arcane choices severely. And it doesnt apply to most companions either, so not even really useful there.

Then we have Wisp's mote augment that in essence is a 200% cast speed buff for that skill.

Augments I find as bandaids are things like Piercing Roar, if it wasnt for the fact it also knocks down and applies max stacks of puncture to enemies. The bandaid part of the mod is that it allows you to recast Roar, which is a very nice addition for most skills, since it allows you to spend energy to rebuff at moments where it is less costly to you, or to make benefit of a conditional buff etc. Though even if the recast became baseline for Roar I'd very likely still use the augment in every build that uses Roar, since the other effects are very welcome, especially since the buffs to puncture that now makes it a mini-Avenger debuff.

I'm sitting here thinking of some actual bandaid augments and I have a hard time to recall any. The closest I get is Ash, Shuriken and Teleport, since they are so lackluster on their own, or in the case of Teleport nearly unusable without the augment in most content, since everything is alerted 24/7 so teleporting in order to finish does nothing, since you cant engage in a finisher anyways. Shuriken does abyssmal damage and nothing else without the augment.

If Equinox is designed to be played with only one form, why didn't they give it 2 separate slots for modifiers like Sevagoth and his shadow? Everyone has different ideas on what they consider a band-aid and I don't consider Piercing Roar to be one. For this reason, I believe that DE has not included any increase in skills until a revision is dedicated to a warframe.

Edited November 17, 2023 by --Leyenda-yight6

[Aruquae]

It’s easier to create a new mod then incorporate actual code into an ability

This is the reason, granted it’s a dumb reason because in the end, isn’t the augment still part of the code?

[Tiltskillet]

27 minutes ago, Malikili said:

It’s easier to create a new mod then incorporate actual code into an ability

This is the reason, granted it’s a dumb reason because in the end, isn’t the augment still part of the code?

What makes you think the coding is easier?

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

As a handful of others have mentioned, this question relies on a false premise: the assumption that these changes should have been part of the base ability.  Clearly DE judged these additions as beneficial enough to be worth a mod slot.  You can disagree with their judgment, but that doesn't make the premise of the question any less false.

With respect, when someone does something you disagree with, I recommend putting more time and effort into considering whether this could be due to a difference of opinion, before jumping aboard the unsolved mysteries train.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Inaros is nowhere close to getting a full rework cause he doesn't need it.

I seriously miss the days of the laughing button for posts like this

[Aruquae]

19 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

What makes you think the coding is easier?

 

Nothing, I’m notoriously bad at coding. I’m just pointing out the easier solution isn’t the best solution. If the augment changes the ability, couldn’t they tie said augment into the ability permanently? 
This is why you don’t see me make “jUSt aDd tHIS sImpLE sOlUtiOn” because coding is harder than what people think. 

[(XBOX)Rez090]

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

I seriously miss the days of the laughing button for posts like this

I fail to even see the humor, Inaros is one of the most solid frames in the game. If you had actually more read what I wrote, he doesn't need a "full" rework, a partial rework/touch-ups are all he needs.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Malikili said:

It’s easier to create a new mod then incorporate actual code into an ability

This is the reason, granted it’s a dumb reason because in the end, isn’t the augment still part of the code?

What? This is hilarious

Edited November 17, 2023 by Hypernaut1

[Aruquae]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

What? This is hilarious

I do remember people bringing this up before. They don’t have the time to revisit the ability, so band aid mod is applied. 

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 minute ago, Malikili said:

I do remember people bringing this up before. They don’t have the time to revisit the ability, so band aid mod is applied. 

This doesn't really make sense because making an augment mod that changes how the ability works requires revisiting the ability.  You have to code in the functionality that the augment applies, and whether that code lives in an augment or in the frame itself doesn't change the fact that you have to write the code.

And in fact, doing it with an augment is actually more complex, because now you have two different versions of how the ability works to maintain and sift through in your code base, rather than just one.

From a coding standpoint, I wouldn't be surprised if all of the "augment code" actually lived in the Warframe itself, and the mod was just a "key" that determined whether it was on or off and what numbers it used.

[Aruquae]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

This doesn't really make sense because making an augment mod that changes how the ability works requires revisiting the ability.  You have to code in the functionality that the augment applies, and whether that code lives in an augment or in the frame itself doesn't change the fact that you have to write the code.

And in fact, doing it with an augment is actually more complex, because now you have two different versions of how the ability works to maintain and sift through in your code base, rather than just one.

From a coding standpoint, I wouldn't be surprised if all of the "augment code" actually lived in the Warframe itself, and the mod was just a "key" that determined whether it was on or off and what numbers it used.

I could see the mod being a key

Would be nice if a fellow Tenno who’s familiar with coding could explain this because it really sounds like revisiting an ability is easier than augments.